Reptile & Amphibian Forums

hi,
i'm doing a project on dogs learning tricks faster with verbal priase or treats. And i was wondering, what you thought. I haven't had anyones opinion and i need one . So if you have time, please comment back and tell me if you think we needtreats to train dogs.
Thanks.

or you can email me.
Wavebabe333@aol.com

Well, your question is not very easy to answer. In my opinion it very much depends on the dog on if you need treats to train or not.

Some dogs are incredibly motivated by food. Other dogs are motivated highly by toys. Others are highly motivated by verbal praise. I train new behaviors with food, but I also use a clicker. I've had the most success with that method.
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PHReign
Email me: HReign@pethobbyist.com" target="_blank">PHReign@pethobbyist.com
Dear dog,
I can not buy anything larger than a king sized bed. I am very sorry about this. Do not think that I will continue to sleep on the couch to ensure your comfort. Look at videos of dogs sleeping, they can actually curl up in a ball. It is not necessary to sleep perpendicular to each other stretched out to your fullest extent possible. I also know that sticking tails straigt out and having tongues hanging out the other end to maximize space used is nothing more than doggy sarcasm.

I agree that it depends on the dog, but at the same time I'm starting to realize the HUGE error that I made in using treats to train my food oriented dog.. A wonderful trainer explained it to me this way - when we give them treats and slowly wean them off, the dog simply thinks that either life is just not as good any more, or that he's doing something wrong. Would a child accept it if they got rewarded every time they did something, and then as they got better at it, rewards were removed? No, their performance would suffer in the hopes that the numerous rewards will come back. And it usually works too. The owner of the dog thinks "oh, I weaned out the treats too early" and goes back to more frequent rewards..

I don't think it's fair to decrease rewards as the dog gets better at what he's being trained to do. Even if they do "learn" better (i.e. more quickly) that way at first, all your hard work goes down the drain later. So take your time to do it right the first time. Better start off with praise and petting as they're always readily available to give (and won't make your dog fat, either..)

great project. I have alot of experience both ways, & I can honestly say that if done *right*, either method is wonderful.

first, I'd suggest you search out Koehler's methods (hope I spelled that right - first name may be William?)

his was one of the main methods used in the 70's (maybe 60's too). I used this method on Dachshunds, Belgian Sheepdogs & titled easily with dogs that were very happy workers. Most folks look back at his methods & focus on the 'choke' chain & not on the praise. My dogs did get a *firm* jerk, maybe (estimate?)10 times or less in the whole training, compared to 100s of times praised. Setting them up to suceed was (is) a basic.

you might check out the Monks of New Skete 's training methods.

the thing about treats/weaning the dog off treats (Leah mentioned) is called random reinforcement. Its a valid behavioral concept (used with humans too)

the one thing that made me weird out about treats (which I use, still) is when some agility folks were having to up the treats, the dog wouldn't do the routine unless it got lobster/steak!!!

a certain time of the year, we have ?swarms? of beetles come through, so I'd go out & when one landed, I'd tell my pup 'watch-it' & hold my finger up so she'd focus on my finger & then follow it to the beetle - treat!

I wasn't even intentionally trying to teach her anything, but now, anytime, anyplace I can say 'watch-it' & get her full immediate attention.

LOL...well you will have fun I'm sure with all the input about methods.

>>hi,
>>i'm doing a project on dogs learning tricks faster with verbal priase or treats. And i was wondering, what you thought. I haven't had anyones opinion and i need one . So if you have time, please comment back and tell me if you think we needtreats to train dogs.
>>Thanks.
>>
>>Sarah
>>
>>or you can email me.
>>Wavebabe333@aol.com

.>>>>>>>>>>>>

A good trainer spends a huge amount of time building in the dog as much variety as possible of things the dog will come to find rewarding. Food makes sense with a new dog or a puppy, and helps the dog learn to love praise by associating the praise with food. Right from the start, the person also needs to be conditioning the dog to be comfortable being touched so that will become rewarding to the dog.

The person also needs to be teaching the dog to play with toys, to fetch, to play SAFE games with humans: retrieving is NUMBER one!--and using all the mischievous things or mistakes the dog does as OPPORTUNITIES to teach the dog positive, fun things to do instead!

Food plays a role, and it's not a good trainer who says never use food, any more than it's a good trainer who says to ALWAYS use food. Most problems with food training are due to lack of skill on the part of the trainer. It's a lot more difficult to use food properly in training than most people realize. It seems easy. People get fast results and do not realize they're not actually training the dog at all. The human may not go on to the next steps of really learning how to train. Then everybody blames food. The problem is not caused by the use of food. It's caused by the failure to use other tools--praise, petting, play, developing the dog's best instincts, developing your own knowledge and skill as a trainer.

People consider a dog "trained" on the basis of far too little. When that minimal effort at training doesn't solve the problems, they go on to looking for something else to blame, instead of getting the right help (virtually no one can learn to train a dog from a book or over the Internet--it is a skill that requires a coach) and giving the dog real training.

A well-trained dog can't make use of that training with a handler who doesn't understand dog training, either. 80% of it is the handler, not the dog.

I recently reread the basic Koehler book after maybe 20 years. I try to be open-minded, but that book is sickening. I'm sorry if that offends anyone, but what I thought I remembered from that book and what people were telling me it says--well, read it for yourself. That is not a text to be following. I don't think he would train that way today. Knowledge of dog training has progressed light years since his time.
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Kathy Diamond Davis, author, "Therapy Dogs: Training Your Dog to Reach Others," 2nd edition, and the free Canine Behavior Series articles at http://www.veterinarypartner.com/Content.plx?P=SRC&S=1&SourceID=47