Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I have a rescue pup, about 17 weeks, that I was told is pit bull plus lab or shepherd. She's actually obviously, now that it's too late to take her back, a bull dog of some sort mixed with Jack Russell. Everyone who sees her says, "Is that a Jack Russell?" though she's already bigger around than a mature one and has a very pit-bull looking body. Also, the color on her face is brindle, which is not allowed in the JR breeding circles. Anyway, she seems to have the JR temperament (which is why I would never intentially get a JR). She's very smart and just as determined to do as she pleases. She goes 9-10 hours at night or during the day without eliminating, but five minutes after coming inside from a half hour or more of exercise and opportunities to eliminate, which she takes, she will pee or poop, or both on the floor. She usually sneaks away so I don't see her because she knows she's not supposed to. She also eats her poop, which is not only disgusting, but makes people unwilling to interact with her for obvious reasons.

Oos! I accidentally sent the above too soon. I also want to say that she will eat anything else as well: fruit, vegetables (raw and cooked), banana peels, anything she is offered, but is not terribly food motivated for training. She is very smart and learns words the first time and knows them in all situations, but doesn't listen if she doesn't want to. I am at the point that I do not enjoy having her anymore because of all the trouble, so I would appreciate any help that is out there.

any dog has its good points & bad - if you are already feeling that she isn't what you wanted, are you able to return her? is this a no-kill shelter?

some actually have a contract stating that you have to return her to them, if you can not keep her.

there are several stages all dogs go through & lots of experienced advice about how to deal with any dog-related problems - it takes a whole process & its not easy to just talk about one or two pieces for any 'quick' fixes.

the combo of breeds you mention all require lots of attention/early training (like obedience classes where you learn how to train)

I like the site - with no spaces of course - w w w....cyber pet....c o m and only one dot - this is just a general info site with topics about all anyone needs to know about dogs - maybe the topic of 'aggression' will give you some idea of whats going on in her head - (not that she is aggressive) check it out.

hope that things work out for this pup, & if you do consider another, you take more time.

Thank you for your response. I've raised puppies and trained dogs in the past, but am not sure what to do about this one. That site you mentioned is too restricted for me. I'm not going to return her. We have another rescue and got this one so they'd both have a companion. I never wanted a JR, but hope I can find some help on stopping the feces eating at least. She is not aggressive at all, just a happy puppy unless we're talking about her elimination habits. Dog trainers aren't going to be any help with most of that because they don't even start until they're old enough to be housebroken and that's been a pretty easy thing in my experience, until I got this pup. I am not expecting a quick fix, but do need to know what to do in such an extreme case, not the general stuff that I already know. The poop eating especially seems to be something that nobody knows what to do with, so I was hoping for some suggestions.

>>Thank you for your response. I've raised puppies and trained dogs in the past, but am not sure what to do about this one. That site you mentioned is too restricted for me. I'm not going to return her. We have another rescue and got this one so they'd both have a companion. I never wanted a JR, but hope I can find some help on stopping the feces eating at least. She is not aggressive at all, just a happy puppy unless we're talking about her elimination habits. Dog trainers aren't going to be any help with most of that because they don't even start until they're old enough to be housebroken and that's been a pretty easy thing in my experience, until I got this pup. I am not expecting a quick fix, but do need to know what to do in such an extreme case, not the general stuff that I already know. The poop eating especially seems to be something that nobody knows what to do with, so I was hoping for some suggestions.

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I have an article on dogs eating feces at the link below my signature. People don't believe this, but when a dog acts like she knows she's done wrong on housetraining, that is submission, not guilt. I have several articles on housetraining at the same link. And read the Eye Contact article. Note the MOVEMENT as part of teaching eye contact/focused attention. Also note keeping the food out of sight until the instant you give it to the dog, and always repeating the maneuver 3-5 times every time you do it. See also my article on treat training. It's a skill, and often when it doesn't work, it's because pieces are missing from how the person is doing it.

Trainers DO work with housetraining, oh yes, indeed they do, very, very much. Class won't handle it, but a private trainer will, if that's what you hire them for. They do it all the time. These days I think it's probably the number one behavior issue they deal with. I know it is for me. After that comes fighting with other dogs in the home and aggression toward humans, about equally. But housetraining is definitely number one.
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Kathy Diamond Davis, author, "Therapy Dogs: Training Your Dog to Reach Others," 2nd edition, and the free Canine Behavior Series articles at http://www.veterinarypartner.com/Content.plx?P=SRC&S=1&SourceID=47

Thank you! It's reassuring to know this nasty habit can go away with time. It will take a while, though, partly because the dogs "go" in an area that has lots of fallen branches and piles of vines so I have to use my voice to stop her, which does work for the most part. She is food motivated after all. I guess the other times she was just too distracted, but I taught her to lie down in about 5 minutes today. She does know about not eating the poop because she looks at me and doesn't do it if I'm nearby. Once I thought she was following me and turned to walk away and she went back to get it. She does the same thing with peeing and pooping in the house. She waits till I'm not looking. She is very smart, and very determined to pee and poop in the house and eat the poop whenever possible. I've had to start keeping her in a crate whenever I'm not directly watching her in hopes she'll get the messsage about going outside. Your site is great! I've bookmarked it. Thanks again!

Coprophagia (the poop eating) could be caused by several things.

1. What food are you feeding her? Many dog foods have alot of corn in them, which is a filler (no nutritional value). It goes in one end and out the other. Because the animal is not getting all the nutrition it needs, it tries to eat it's own feces. After all, since the corn is not being digested, it smells like its food (to them anyway). You might try switching dog food to something without any corn.

2. Internal parasites or some other medical condition might also cause it. You might want to have a full physical done on her.

3. A behavioral problem. Some dogs when under stress, such as a sudden environmental change, react by eating their feces. It can be a tactic to avoid punishment for having a bowel movement in an inappropriate area. Coprophagia can be taught to a puppy during housetraining; if the puppy is scolded or he sees the owner 'cleaning up' the bowel movement in the house, the puppy may learn to 'hide' the bowel movement by eating it.

4. Some dogs just enjoy it.

As for the housetraining issue in a class environment. Some trainers DO cover housetraining in class. (I know I do, as well as do several of my trainer friends) I think Housetraining follows a close second to jumping up, in the number of requests I get for problem solving.

Call around to different trainers and talk to them.

>>Thank you! It's reassuring to know this nasty habit can go away with time. It will take a while, though, partly because the dogs "go" in an area that has lots of fallen branches and piles of vines so I have to use my voice to stop her, which does work for the most part. She is food motivated after all. I guess the other times she was just too distracted, but I taught her to lie down in about 5 minutes today. She does know about not eating the poop because she looks at me and doesn't do it if I'm nearby. Once I thought she was following me and turned to walk away and she went back to get it. She does the same thing with peeing and pooping in the house. She waits till I'm not looking. She is very smart, and very determined to pee and poop in the house and eat the poop whenever possible. I've had to start keeping her in a crate whenever I'm not directly watching her in hopes she'll get the messsage about going outside. Your site is great! I've bookmarked it. Thanks again!
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Be careful about that situation of the dog waiting until you are not looking to do something. Especially in the case of pottying, that can mean you're overcorrecting. It's very detrimental to housetraining, because you NEED the dog to do it in front of you so you can reinforce the proper habit. No punishment in housetraining--not even a harsh voice.
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Kathy Diamond Davis, author, "Therapy Dogs: Training Your Dog to Reach Others," 2nd edition, and the free Canine Behavior Series articles at http://www.veterinarypartner.com/Content.plx?P=SRC&S=1&SourceID=47

A good trainer should also be able to help you get her to listen to commands every time, not just when she wants to.

A good food with no fillers is Canidae.. It seems a little more expensive at first but the dogs eat less of it than other foods, so it actually works out to be about the same..

Try to make sure you're not scolding her for "going" in the house. This will only make her hide from you to do it, and could be contributing to the coprophagia. As far as she knows she's being scolded for pottying, not for doing it in the house or wherever.. When she does it in the house just take her outside immediately (but only if you catch her in the act). It helps to leave a leash trailing from her collar in the house. Then of course praise and praise when she does it outside.. The reason she might not try to eat it when you are around is because she doesn't want to draw attention to it, and then when you're not looking she goes back to hide it. But if you scold her when you catch her she might associate the scolding with the pottying again in the first place, not the "disposing" of it.. That will only make things worse..

Try to make sure that there's no scolding involved in house training whatsoever. Everything about it should be positively praised, or ignored completely..

I wish you the best of luck.. I would never, ever choose a JR or JR mix either..

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>>I wish you the best of luck.. I would never, ever choose a JR or JR mix either..

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I used to think that for myself, until I got to know a female JRT belonging to a next-door neighbor. I helped him out with her quite a bit, including when she had young pups in the nest. She was one of the steadiest dogs I've ever met. He took her and his little male Chi/Rat Terrier mix for walks together and they were nice to everybody. For her to let me come in and tend to her and even touch the pups--of course I did not rush her, etc., but still...--was very impressive.

I would think long and hard before getting a terrier for myself, because I like to have multiple dogs, and you have to be so extremely careful of what other dogs you adopt when you have a terrier. A female terrier and any other female dog in the home, I would never do.

But I have met some incredibly impressive terriers of both sexes, including JRTs. So, I can't say I'd never get one, even though I'm not a terrier person. I know the kind of dog that will be happiest with me is a herding or retrieving type--even when that instinct is once-removed, such as in the Poodle or Schipperke. Training is a way of life with me, and that's the language my dogs and I use. I'd miss it in a dog who really just did not think that way, and the dog would not have the joy in this lifestyle that the herding and retrieving dogs take.

It would be interesting, though, to see just how tuned in a terrier could become, handled the way my dogs are. Genetics are very, very important to what a dog's temperament will be. But considering how enthusiastically some terriers retrieve, even with owners who don't know much about training, I have to wonder. There is so much about dogs that is a mystery.
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Kathy Diamond Davis, author, "Therapy Dogs: Training Your Dog to Reach Others," 2nd edition, and the free Canine Behavior Series articles at http://www.veterinarypartner.com/Content.plx?P=SRC&S=1&SourceID=47

Thanks for the responses. I also would never choose a JR of any kind either, but was told she was something else and somehow didn't notice. Even the vet didn't guess it the first day, possibly because of the mix. It's her temperament that seals the ID. She is very smart and isn't hiding it inside or out. For one thing, she doesn't eat it all, just a bite, and for another, she tries to eat it as it comes out of our other dog, who's food does not include any grain, especially corn, because she's allergic to it. The JR gets Innova puppy dry and Wellness puppy canned, neither of which have corn. She also gets a vitamin in case we're missing anything. I tried the tablets that are supposed to make it taste bad, but it didn't work, which wasn't much of a surprise since she will even eat foods as hot and spicy as kim chi. I also tried the charcoal biscuits because the are supposed to decrease the smell and thus the temptation, but no luck there either. She does have worms, but the only thing interfering with treatment is that she keeps reinfecting herself by eating her poop! The reason I'm asking here isn't because I don't talk about it elsewhere, I do, a lot, just in case somebody knows anything. One person said it might be texture, and to add the caned food, another said the mother may have been in bad shape and needed to scrounge in that way, and so passed it on to her pups. So far, no help, but some hope that it will go away in time. Thanks again for all the perspectives!

I think that with the right trainer a terrier could be taught to retrieve and such. My aunt has one (cairn terrier) that she sometimes takes to herding competitions and he has beat out many a border collie..

I think it's their personalities that I can't stand. They seem to be very obnoxious, very self-absorbed and self-serving. Independence is great but I prefer a shepherd's type of independence, they seem to know better how to put their intelligence to good use, as opposed to constant mischief.. Of course they're just being dogs, but shepherds and the like seem to mesh with the human world a lot easier..