Reptile & Amphibian Forums

hi there. just came across this site and thought i'd ask for opinions.

i have three little dogs that i have had since they were babies. they are all female. my chihuhua mix is now 9(in human years), my chihuahua is 6, and my chinese crested is 6.

i had a sweetheart of a rottie(female) that i just had to have put to sleep a few months ago due to illness/old age. the rottie let the little dogs walk all over her. they were used to getting their way, if you know what i mean.

now i have adopted two new pups. some kind of lab with maybe some pit mixed in. boy and girl, brother and sister. i got them at 7 weeks old and they are now a little over 4 months. i purposely got puppies so they would grow up around my small dogs and respect them. it's not happening.

when i first got them my little dogs could control them by growling and snapping at them. now the puppies attack back and i have a fight on my hands between a big puppy and a small older dog. the female pup is the one who has had fairly serious fights with each of the little ones. i guess the male pup doesn't bother them cause they are all female.

my little dogs are the ones starting the fights but i'm afraid one is going to get hurt. i try to watch them closely and anticipate the fight and stop it before it starts. so far the female pup has had one fight with my smallest chi, and two fights with the other two each. each time it was the little dog that growled and attacked first. either because the pup came too close, or over a chew toy or food. i feed them all in seperate bowls and i now make sure that the little ones don't have a chew toy unless the pups still have one too. even though the pups eat theirs right away. my little dogs tend to try and hold onto theirs and guard it. when they do this i put it away now.

i got some paperwork from the vet that says the growling dog should not be the one scolded, because they are warning the other dog. however--i think i have to teach the little ones not to think they can attack these pups so i have been scolding them. i think the pups, as young as they are, are going to be the leaders(actually already are) and my older dogs have to learn this.

usually they get along and my little dogs(two of them) groom the male pup at times. these occassional fights worry me though cause the pups are only going to get bigger and one bite could kill my smaller dog.

do you guys agree with me are should i be scolding the puppies?

thanks for any feedback.

Well, I have the same problem on my hands. My little dog (JRT/Pug) Duncan is always picking fights with Emily (APBT). Emily is 50 pounds and could crunch his little body and not even think twice about it! At first I tried to scold the little one but now I just let them go at it!! Sometimes the barking and growling get so loud I have to leave the room! I have come to the decision that he will eventually learn to leave her alone, and I am not going to be able to stop him from antagonizing. You have quite a few more dogs than me, I don't know how you do it. It's their nature to want to play, so it will be hard to teach the big or small dogs to stop this behavior. Good luck, and keep us updated!

thanks so much for replying.

i thought the best thing would be to not intervene. however, when the fight happens and i see this big pup latched onto my little girl it is hard not to react.

they have had three fights now.the bigger chi mix and the female pup. the last was the worst. i did get involved and ended up getting bit several times. the girl pup was latched onto the bigger chi mix and the bigger chi mix wouldn't stop growling and whatnot.yelling and hitting at them did no good and i ended up trying to pry the pups jaws loose. i guess she finally got tired after what seemed like forever and let go. it was horrible.

i was not paying enough attention before the fight to determine what started it. i feel really guilty about that. it just happened so quickly. i was watching them and then i went to reply to an email i had recieved and the next thing i know they were at it.

it seems my two older dogs(the smallest chi and the crested)have pretty much learned to just move away but my chi mix does not want to give up her status.

i'm still working with them and appreciate any more suggestions. i just can't think of getting rid of the pups because they are following their instincts. i just don't want my little dogs hurt.

oh wow, I didn't realize that they were actually biting eachother. When my two fight they just bark and chase eachother, taking out everything in their path. This seems like a very bad situation, and it sounds to me like your best bet is to start working intensivly with behavior specialist at home, or keep them seperated. I wish you the best of luck!

If you need to break up fights in the future, a spray bottle full of water is often helpful. However, I would only use this as a last resort. The shock from the spray may cause the pup to involuntarily tighten her jaw, which very obviously would be a very bad thing.

I really think you're going to have to keep them separated at all times. At this point, trying to pinpoint the causes of fights isn't likely to do much good. It's more than likely just a dominance thing, rather than a fight about something like the way people fight. Dogs struggling with dominance will often attack each other for no apparent reason. This struggle is not likely to end well. Two females especially may go at it over and over again until one of them is killed. With the way your pup is growing, it's not likely to be her.

I would seriously be giving some more thought to finding them other homes. Or at least the female. It sounds like both of them need a lot of work. If they're already showing human aggression at this age, combined with barrier aggression, you're looking at some serious problems that are only going to grow as these pups pack on the extra body mass. You said your boy went nuts when he was in the kennel at the vet's office. That could be separation anxiety, fear, and barrier aggression, or any combination of them. It sounds like this pup has been abandoned before, neglected, or abused.

If you don't have any experience with these problems, I would try to find them a home that does (and quickly, because there's a much better chance for rehab if they're still young). I thought I could "fix" my dog on my own and was sadly mistaken - it almost cost my dog his life. However with professional help he's turned around.. Please get some help for these dogs.

hi yall. just wanted to give an update.

things seem to have improved. haven't had any more fights and the bigger chimix has been grooming the female pup sometimes. she always did groom the male.

i have just been watching them closely and being careful how i hand out treats and food. and i keep the spray bottle handy.

thanks again to all that gave suggestions and support. i really appreciate it.

>>hi there. just came across this site and thought i'd ask for opinions.
>>
>>i have three little dogs that i have had since they were babies. they are all female. my chihuhua mix is now 9(in human years), my chihuahua is 6, and my chinese crested is 6.
>>
>>i had a sweetheart of a rottie(female) that i just had to have put to sleep a few months ago due to illness/old age. the rottie let the little dogs walk all over her. they were used to getting their way, if you know what i mean.
>>
>>now i have adopted two new pups. some kind of lab with maybe some pit mixed in. boy and girl, brother and sister. i got them at 7 weeks old and they are now a little over 4 months. i purposely got puppies so they would grow up around my small dogs and respect them. it's not happening.
>>
>>when i first got them my little dogs could control them by growling and snapping at them. now the puppies attack back and i have a fight on my hands between a big puppy and a small older dog. the female pup is the one who has had fairly serious fights with each of the little ones. i guess the male pup doesn't bother them cause they are all female.
>>
>>my little dogs are the ones starting the fights but i'm afraid one is going to get hurt. i try to watch them closely and anticipate the fight and stop it before it starts. so far the female pup has had one fight with my smallest chi, and two fights with the other two each. each time it was the little dog that growled and attacked first. either because the pup came too close, or over a chew toy or food. i feed them all in seperate bowls and i now make sure that the little ones don't have a chew toy unless the pups still have one too. even though the pups eat theirs right away. my little dogs tend to try and hold onto theirs and guard it. when they do this i put it away now.
>>
>>i got some paperwork from the vet that says the growling dog should not be the one scolded, because they are warning the other dog. however--i think i have to teach the little ones not to think they can attack these pups so i have been scolding them. i think the pups, as young as they are, are going to be the leaders(actually already are) and my older dogs have to learn this.
>>
>>usually they get along and my little dogs(two of them) groom the male pup at times. these occassional fights worry me though cause the pups are only going to get bigger and one bite could kill my smaller dog.
>>
>>do you guys agree with me are should i be scolding the puppies?
>>
>>thanks for any feedback.

>>>>>>>>>>

Possibly part of the problem is that the small dogs traumatized the pups when they were younger. Now that their defense drives are emerged, they are doing something about the fear that developed then. I wouldn't predict a very happy outcome, and scolding any of the dogs is more likely to hasten tragedy than to help matters. A behavior specialist in person might be helpful.
-----
Kathy Diamond Davis, author, "Therapy Dogs: Training Your Dog to Reach Others," 2nd edition, and the free Canine Behavior Series articles at http://www.veterinarypartner.com/Content.plx?P=SRC&S=1&SourceID=47

hello. thanks for the response. please see my response to the other poster for update. i am not used to this type of forum and i apologize.

i just wanted to say to you that i don't think the pups were traumatized by my small dogs because they were never really afraid or smaller. they kind of left them alone for a minute after one of the smaller ones gave warning but then were right back trying to play.

now the female attacks back with a vengeance. the male still pretty much ignores them.

thanks again for replying. i appreciate it.

I personally would not have taken the lab/mix pups in the first place. Such large dogs are a grave danger to such tiny ones even if they get along, let alone if they're fighting. My parents' larger dogs (40 - 50 lbs) ignore the shih tzus most of the time (6-8 lbs), and they all get along well together when they do decide to play. But when the big dogs are playing, or running excitedly somewhere the little dogs often get under foot and trampled. Shih tzus are sturdy dogs, and there has never been an injury, but the large and small dogs are almost always separated in the house now. Your mixes, if they are lab/pits, are likely to reach 70lbs or more. And chis are a lot more delicate than shih tzus. Even in the best case scenario, with all the dogs working out their problems and getting along, you're asking for injuries to the small girls just by having these dogs in the same house.

Unfortunately, your rott allowed your tiny girls to remain dominant. And because there was only one large dog, avoiding injuries would be easier because the large dog wouldn't be playing in the house as much as she would if she'd had a playmate. Your small girls are going to want to stay dominant and if your pups have any pit in them the odds are 20:1 that the female will refuse to allow them to dominate. Introducing females to females is risky but when you factor in breeds, sizes, and the temperaments that are becoming obvious, this seems like a downright disastrous situation.

Chances are that without a behaviourist's help, these dogs will never get along. And pits and labs are both strong in prey drive, they're bred to guard to the death and to hunt. You might be able to get along with the male, as he doesn't seem to be causing much of a problem but it seems highly likely that no matter what you do, your chis will be injured or killed by the female lab one day..

I'm sorry.. all this is just my opinion, and obviously I don't know everything about your situation, but I really don't see any way this situation can end positively if those dogs are forced to live together..

i really, really don't want to believe you but i am afraid not to. i grew up with a variety of dogs and never saw this problem. when we got a puppy they never challenged the older dog. i never thought this would happen.

i didn't plan well when i got these puppies. i had just put my rottie down about a month before and then the cook at my job showed up with these. someone else was supposed to take them and declined at the last minute. i really thought they would respect the older dogs.

now, they are used to me. i don't want my small dogs to be hurt but i don't want to let down the pups either. who's going to take them at this age with these issues. did i mention they don't like other people much either. even though i take them out often and try to socialize them. i had my boy pup neutered early at 4 months and i knew he was acting strange when i left him. he doesn't like strangers but the staff assured me he would be ok once i left. he ended up with three broken teeth and the staff afraid to get him from the cage.

the vet said in his 32 years of practice he had never seen a dog become so frantic and so violent. especially at that age.

i just don't know what i'm going to do. thanks for replying. i really appreciate it.also i replied to the other posters.please see as well. this forum is different from what i'm used to.

Oh my.. the more you're telling me, the more you boy sounds just like mine. My dog was VERY people aggressive. There is good news, and bad news. The good news is that these problems are reversible to a very large extent. My dog has bitten 4 people without provocation, and after a couple of months of intensive training he has turned around completely. Go to www.puppywishes.com and check out the training video called "Temperamental" by Adam Stone. That video has been 100% responsible for the change in my dog.

The bad news is that while the video may help the situation between the large and small dogs, it will do nothing about the size difference and the possibility of injury from them. You may choose to rehabilitate these pups, re-socialize them, and find them another home. They're still young (are they still around 4 months? I forget). Abuse sounds like a possibility, as does neglect and separation anxiety. If you have msn, you can add me to it.. my address is glam70s@hotmail.com. I'd love to talk to you about these things.. I highly recommend buying that video but I can explain what we've gone through with Kaiser, it might help a little..