Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Quite a while ago, someone on these boards recommended having my dog's thyroid tested because his behavior is so erratic and apparently unpredictable. He is aggressive but it's just not possible to define the situations in which he's likely to bite - sometimes he does, sometimes he doesn't.

So I called his vet and asked her. She just said that thyroid has nothing to do with aggression and that there was no point in testing him. I trusted her, as I've known her a long time, and I let the issue drop.

Last weekend I was talking to the trainer that will be teaching Kaiser's obedience classes this summer. She's already been teaching him for a while and knows him quite well. She said it was strange that he does not respond to positive reinforcement, and that his aggression responds well to brief time-outs. She said if it was dominance or resource guarding he would likely lash out when punished. That made her think that these types of aggression are not what the problem is, and she suggested having him tested for thyroid problems.

Since this is the second time it has come up, I did a lot of research and then called a nearby vet to have Kaiser tested.

This vet is unfamiliar with the research and doesn't believe that there is a true link. He tried to pacify me with thyroid tests that are known to be the least accurate of them all. I told him I wanted free T4 measured by equilibrium dialysis and he seemed far less than impressed that I seem to know what I'm talking about and won't just take his word for it.

He said he did a lot of looking around, calling experts in Ontario, and he found nothing to support the link between thyroid and aggression. So I e-mailed the world's leading expert on the topic, Dr. Jean Dodds, and had her send me the literature. I printed it off this morning and took it to the vet.

The fT4 test results should be in this afternoon so he said he'll review the literature I gave him and tell me what he thinks this afternoon.

Why is it that so many vets assume that their clients are absolutely naive? I take my responsibility to Kaiser very seriously and I want to make sure that an opportunity for a great life doesn't pass him by. It's up to us to care enough to do our own research and refuse to be a passive observer in their treatments.

I'm just so tired and frustrated and angry at having to fight tooth and nail for proper treatment for my dog. Not every vet can know everything - you would think they would be a little more accepting when a client is showing them valid research. I'm not only trying to help Kaiser, but any number of other dogs that go through there with the same problems. I wonder how many dogs have been put to sleep because their owners were told by professionals that the situation was hopeless. When in reality, $10/month in thyroid replacement drugs could have given the dog a happy, healthy life.

So frustrated! His first two tests even came back very low normal. Even lower than normal, depending on what lab you use. And the vet still won't believe me..

Hi Leah,

I haven't read the board in a quite awhile -- interesting that I popped over today. I remember discussing thyroid issues here before, but I don't remember if it was with your dog.

I've dealt with my own thyroid issues for many many years, and have studied K9 thyroid issues probably for the last 5 or 6 years because I knew I had a dog that would have thyroid issues. Oddly enough, it's our other dog that had the first issues.

I don't think you can say anything about the thyroid function unless you have a full panel run -- this includes Total T4 and T3, Free T4 and T3, and antibody tests for T4 (T4AA), T3 (T3AA), and the thyroglobulin (TgAA, sp?). Though most vets don't test it, and it isn't on Dodd's complete panel, the TgAA is incredibly important because it's the one test that has the most potential to pick up the possibility of autoimmune thyroiditis. The TSH may or may not show abnormalities in canine hypothryoidism -- it is not nearly as good a predictor of thyroid function in K9s as it is in humans.

I do recommend having a TgAA run *before* you start any supplementation though. If the thyroid is about dead, it won't be of any use since it won't elevate. BUT, if it is elevated, then you know if there is an autoimmune component, which is important later when giving supplements, etc.

Thyroids must be treated based on both symptoms and bloodwork, because the bloodwork doesn't give the full picture, and there are cases of thyroid disease that the bloodwork will miss -- only to pick it up when the dog is severely hypothyroid.

So I have a dog that I tested in 1999, 2000, 2001, 2002, 2003, 2004, 2005, and just recently 2006 for thyroid disease (at least once a year with her other bloodwork -- she has other issues). All years here T4 was about 2.2-2.8, except in 2004 and now at 2006. In 2004, two tests, months apart showed she was at 1.6, then she bounced back in 2005, but now she's down to a total T4 of 1.1 and we are just starting a trial run of supplementation to see how she responds.

Our GSD Max is another story. I had to leave a longtime vet to get his thyroid properly treated. I was told that his bloodwork did not show he required supplementation, which I disagreed with.

Max had his total and free T4 and the very low end range of the scale (in Idexx's borderline region), but his T3 (free and total) was below normal. T3 is the more active hormone, so to me this indicated a problem. With our girl, even when she had a lower T4 in earlier years, her T3 was fine, so we left things alone. This was not the case here. Max's TgAA showed elevated antibodies, which were in IDexx's "inconclusive range". He also had many of the behaviour issues that I've read about in Dodd's papers. Putting all that together, I wanted to try a trial supplementation, and so we went to a different vet that I work better with. I should add that because the boy was on a homeprepared diet at the time, he didn't look like a typical hypothryoid dog in terms of coat, etc.

Well, after only three days, there was a HUGE difference in his behaviour and inappropriate heightened responses. I have found that that still varies, but I can tell when we don't give him his meds. Ultimately, his coat also improved alot, and the colors changed to very rich ones.

I just found a copy of a post here by Kathy that I printed out about 4 months ago -- I never saw it posted and was meaning to respond to it after I saw it months later. I just ran out of time last semester to get back to these forums. Anyway, you might find these posts interesting to read:

http://forums.doghobbyist.com/view.php?id=92612,92612

http://forums.doghobbyist.com/view.php?id=92968,92968

As an aside, don't you find it interesting that this vet doesn't believe the link between thyroid and behaviour/agression when so many leading experts acknowledge it and your training was the one that brought it up? And humans have been put in institutions for mental problems that were cleared once the thyroid was supplemented. Sounds like an ignorant egotistical vet to me...I have to confess, I've been through a few vets myself.

p.s. just reread that you have several tests and they have come back with low thyroid. Geez, you need a new vet.

When I left our old vet of many years for not treating Max, I wrote him a note (email actually) and just said that I knew he wasn't comfortable with a trial run, and I would let him know how it turns out, which I did months down the road. Hmmmm, I never heard back from him.

Thank you for the info. I recall talking to you about this before.

Kaiser's free T4 is right on the 25th percentile border, his T4 is at approximately 15% above the lower limit. His TSH was about 10% above, but I know how inaccurate that test is. The vet's problem was that TSH should be high to indicate a problem, and it was very low-normal. He wouldn't test anything else - not that I wanted him to. Those three tests cost me $300 Canadian funds.

He said that he would give Kaiser a 30 day (maximum) drug trial, because I want it. But he's extremely skeptical about the connection between aggression and thyroid. He doesn't know Kaiser very well, so why would he take my word for it that there was a change in his behavior during the trial? He'd be likely to cut off the drugs even if they were helping. And he was the most arrogant, condescending a$$ I've ever met. I was so angered by him I could barely see straight. I even printed out the literature that Dodds sent me and gave it to him. He told me he called the "experts" in the area and they all decided that her work is not based in science and is completely anecdotal.

I told Dr. Dodds this and she sent me the name of a vet a couple of hours away that she'd gone to college with. She said to ask him for the name of a more cooperative vet in my area. I have, and he's thinking about it.

Dr. Dodds said that with Kaiser's aggression, excessive shedding, and thyroid levels, he should be given a 4-8 week trial of 0.1mg per 12-15 lbs of body weight, twice daily. She's the leading expert on the subject, I trust her judgement.

I'm just so annoyed and angry. I'm a university student - I can't afford to jump around from vet to vet. Especially if some of them are going to overcharge like that one. Each vet has to do a physical exam and such before even considering tests or treatment. Which is fine, but I wish they would tell me before that if they don't agree that this is actually a real problem.

I hope that this is Kaiser's problem. If it helps us deal with his aggression, I can't even express the relief and happiness I would feel. I just want to get this figured out and to know exactly how much strain this is going to have on my budget..

How very frustrating! I can certainly sympathize, because Max's T4 levels were at the low end on all tests, but never "low enough" for the vet we were going to at the time.

For Max, supplementation wasn't a magic pill, but there was a huge difference and I could have never made progress without first getting that fixed. It made a huge difference. I was lucky that I had a vet that I used for my other dog that knew me and I had a relationship with -- I don't think she would have done the trial supplementation otherwise. The alternative is to wait until they get bad enough for the vet to treat -- stupid, isn't it?

I hope that you can get the treatment for Kaiser.