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Being A Breeder

Sunshine1012 Feb 20, 2006 02:11 AM

Hello All,

I have a few questions. I would like to get into breeding my selected breed and have researched quite a bit about it and am also working with my breeder of my female who has been breeding for 25 yrs to become established. One question I have not asked her and wanted to get some of your opinions is that can you be a reputable breeder without going to shows and being involved in various dog clubs? My female has never shown but come's from good lines and the stud I am about to buy is finished. To be quite honest I am not a competitor but I have researched all I can about breed standard and my goal will be to breed for health and soundness and to enhance the lines.Ok, so my basic question is can you breed but not show or do the two go hand in hand?

Thanks-

Replies (7)

joce Feb 20, 2006 09:30 AM

It wouldn't be horrible but remember how many people can say their dog comes from "champion lines". Goin the extra step and doing the shows jsut really proves the dogs are up to par and will make you more appealable with people you really want buying your pups. When I look at a dog showing is not a requirement,but they have all come form homes that do show. Not that I picked it that way but I usually like what I hear better there. By joining a breed club in your area you will also get them helping you and refferals to you that way.

But if you ahve a breed that is overbred like labs,goldens,pugs,etc I would say to show. With a dog that there are so many already bred only the best and proven should be bred.
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KDiamondDavis Feb 20, 2006 04:40 PM

>>Hello All,
>>
>>I have a few questions. I would like to get into breeding my selected breed and have researched quite a bit about it and am also working with my breeder of my female who has been breeding for 25 yrs to become established. One question I have not asked her and wanted to get some of your opinions is that can you be a reputable breeder without going to shows and being involved in various dog clubs? My female has never shown but come's from good lines and the stud I am about to buy is finished. To be quite honest I am not a competitor but I have researched all I can about breed standard and my goal will be to breed for health and soundness and to enhance the lines.Ok, so my basic question is can you breed but not show or do the two go hand in hand?
>>
>> Thanks-

>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Dogs who are bred need to be proven. This means health checks as well as demonstrated ability to live the life for which they were bred. Sometimes that is work, sometimes it is about being good conformation specimens of their breed (apparently that is your situation), and other times it might even be healthy, good-tempered companions.

If you don't want to show your dog, placing pups in homes that will show is one way to prove the breeding. Of course you can also pay a professional handler to show dogs, or perhaps the breeder will do it for you.

If you've never bred before, you might find it's not what you expected. Most people who try it do wind up spaying the female after one litter. Owning the male is often not your best bet, since repeating the same breeding over and over could be very bad for your chosen breed's benefit. I'd suggest you work closely with the breeder to produce a litter before you buy a male stud dog. I think you'll be able to make a better decision then.
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Kathy Diamond Davis, author, "Therapy Dogs: Training Your Dog to Reach Others," 2nd edition, and the free Canine Behavior Series articles at http://www.veterinarypartner.com/Content.plx?P=SRC&S=1&SourceID=47

ruffian Mar 04, 2006 04:24 AM

I happen to agree with this person, buying a male for one female is a bad idea, you have no genetic difference in your litters, You might think your bitch will produce well with him but if they don't then what? You have a finished stud that you paid for and there is no real reason to use him. If you only have one bitch you should serch our studs, you can always repeat a breeding if you liked their last litter, but if you really want to produce pups that are good representations of the breed owning the one dog and one bitch isn't the way to go. I really do know as I did this same thing, now my dog i showed to his championship is neutered and my bitch hasn't had pups for 7 years.

Chelle Feb 21, 2006 12:41 PM

In my opinion you must show in order to continue to breed to standard. I know there are politics in the show world. I know it's no fun in many ways. Unfortuantely, in my opinion you can not be a great breeder if you aren't "checking in" on occation. I don't think you have to Special your dogs to be a great breeder though. I also don't think AKC is the only venue out there to show in conformation (although I'd be suspect of some registries like CKC).

It would be even better if you could show your breeding dogs or their non-conformation siblings in performance events. It shows a potential owner that their puppy has the potential to be a very adaptable pet. Temperament is partially genetic in nature so it helps you assess your dogs adaptablility. A bloodhound that can't track or an aussie that can't herd is no longer meeting breed standard in my opinion and should not be bred. IMHO

PS- I don't breed dogs nor do I ever want to.
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Chelle and the rest of the crew including, but not limited to Kita and Taiko (the shiba inu wrestle maniacs), Adi (reserved and dignified tabby cat), and all 28 reptiles

sunshine1012 Feb 22, 2006 05:24 AM

Thanks for all of your responses!! Chelle-What has really turned me off from showing is exactly what you mentioned...the politics and not only that the down right nastiness that sometimes goes on.In my opinion I do not believe every dog is deserving of their title and some dogs who have not shown at all meet breed standard and excel in whatever are is their specialty outside of the show ring. But if that is what I need to do I will do it

Thanks Again For Your Replies!

Chelle Feb 23, 2006 12:23 PM

Really, I understand the nastiness involved. I've not dealt with it first hand, but even being a part of a performance group once competition is involved, things can get nasty. What I really hate is when people are nice to you in person, but behind your back, they are so incredibly mean.

You know, when you have great dogs you don't need to participate in the infighting and gossip. You can just walk away. By being the bigger person and not contributing to the politics and other junk that goes along with showing, you may actually start getting quite a bit of respect. You will be a great asset to the showing community.
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Chelle and the rest of the crew including, but not limited to Kita and Taiko (the shiba inu wrestle maniacs), Adi (reserved and dignified tabby cat), and all 28 reptiles

Trafalgar Apr 15, 2006 05:56 PM

Hi.

The question of whether attendance at conformation shows is mandatory to be a good breeder-
is a great one to ask yourself.

But there isn't one good answer.

But there is one good maxim:
BREEDERS DO NOT BREED ALONE IN A VACUUM.
Dog breeding is a group endeavor - each breeder being one of the stewards of the breed in question and they all need to be connected to other breeders.

Also, breeding is as much about the dogs you DON'T breed as it is about the dogs you do. How does one eliminate breeding prospects? How does one do that while at the same time not narrowing the gene pool too much?

One of the assumptions that needs to be expressed in order to answer your question is this >>
which breed are you interested in breeding?

The inevitable follow up question is this: What is the best method of evaluating future breeding prospects for this breed?

Example:
If you would ask the question you posed about Border Collies the best answer would be NO. Because showing in the conformation ring doesn't evaluate the important qualities that are the essence of the breed. It only evaluates physicality.

What is good about the conformation show circuit is that it provides SOME objective evaluation of a dog's quality. This evaluation is independent of the owner's opinion.
This is NOT a small thing.
NO ONE can be trusted to evaluate their own breeding stock without any objective outside evaluation.

BUT - that being said, the show ring is certainly not the best system of evaluation.

Performance trials with objective criteria are very good in that they more accurately evaluate the ability to perform a set task. The better the evaluation system the more meaning it can give a group of breeders.

Great examples of VERY GOOD evaluation systems are
(in my humble opinion)
:
FDSB or NAVHDA field trials for hunting dogs such as English Pointers and English or Irish Setters

NAHRA Trials for Retrievers

ISDS Sheepdog trials for Border Collies

Schutzhund trials for German Shepherds, Malinois, Rottweilers, Boxers, Doberman Pinschers.

French Ring, Mondio, KNPV for the Belgian Malinois

etc..
(Enough! - you say)

For many reasons I believe that the show ring should never be the only selection mechanism in dog breeding but many many people would disagree (motivated I believe by self interest). The reasons I'm critical are many BUT show ring competition is far superior to NO competition.

Here are some of the reasons I believe conformation breed ring is problematic:
1- It is a very modest thing to judge a dogs physicality.

2-To the extent that the showring is subjective and subject to "people who know people " - it fails - even at it's modest task

3- By it's very definiition it places conformation at the top of the pinnacle of breed essence. If we all can agree that looks are not the most important thing in people why doesn't it give pause to the placing value on a dog purely because of it's looks?

4- Breed ring competition is fierce because since the judges are concerned with so little, they must differentiate based on absolute minutae. (I once saw top Sheltie breeders deciding which bitch puppy to keep out of a litter by measuring the MILLIMETER of difference of the distance between the ears.) To me that spells WRONG because when you choose to breed a dog for one reason - you automatically do not choose it for another.

5- Show Champions very often are YOUNG. Often problems haven't had a chance to manifest.
(Compare it with performance dogs who are rarely at their best until 6-9 years old.)

If your breed is ONLY judged in the show ring by the vast number of breeders - you really don't have a choice. BUT certainly, trainability, mental stability, good health without drastic husbandry, should also be part of your elimination process as well....

Perhaps your best solution would be to become a partner with someone who enjoys the shows more than the birth of puppies in the house - this way you could each avoid the part of breeding you like least!

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