Reptile & Amphibian Forums

My four month old Husky loves to BITE HUMANS, and HARD. When he's in his frisky mood, he does this...he's teething and only playing, but saying/yelling NO and shaking his muzzle and the scruff of his neck usually do nothing.

PLEASE---what is the trick to stop this? He's going to take a hunk of flesh with him one of these days. NO KIDDING.

I can't walk out in the backyard with him because all he does is lunge at my legs/hands/arms, sink his teeth in and BITE and PULL.

I have screamed NO NO NO to no end. Heeeeeeelpppppppp!!!!
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New "Mom" to the Little Wolf-boy, Smokey
Pictures forthcoming when digicam becomes available!

This one's actually pretty easy, Anne...

As soon as he bites too hard, yelp. His ears should go back and he may start licking you furiously.

If not, or it continues, IMMEDIATELY put him on the ground and roll him on his back/side. Hold him like that (your hand on his chest/shoulder) and stare at his eyes until he calms down and submits. You may even want to softly growl. This is dog language for "I'm the boss and this is NOT acceptable behavior". If he squirms or kicks or tries to get up, don't let him until he freezes up for a good 5-15 seconds. He should also look away.

Then, let him up. Repeat if he bites again.

Somewhere along the line he got trained (probably unintentionally) that biting was an acceptable game. Shaking his muzzle with your hand only reinforces that. Make sure the hubby, kids, neighbors, ... whoever knows not to shake their hands in his face or play "keep away".

Yelling is never an option. It means nothing to them.

Do you know the hardest thing to train a dog? "Down" (lay down). Why? Because it's a submissive position. On their back is even more submissive. Watch 2 dogs play. They will take turns being on the top and on the bottom.

Get a book on "dog language". You will learn a lot. Once you can speak their language of body position, posture, whines, snarls, etc you will find communicating with them much easier. Also, you will learn how to read body language of not only your dog, but neighbors' dogs, strange dogs that approach you, and dogs interacting at the dog park.

One clue. When you meet a new dog and what to make friends, get down on your knee or hands/knees to greet it. Never reach down from a standing position. Also, to keep a dog from jumping on you... get down.

I got lots more...lol.

Good luck, and let us know how it works.

Reinforce good behavior, but negative reinforcement is a no-no, other than asserting your dominance as I've discussed above.

Walt (and Nikki and Shadow)

THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU--I can't wait to try this ASAP tomorrow!!!!!!!!!!! Will post results!!!
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New "Mom" to the Little Wolf-boy, Smokey
Pictures forthcoming when digicam becomes available!

No problem...

Obviously, don't SUPLEX (wrestling move) the little guy. You don't want to hurt him.

The best way to see it is to watch a mother dog with her pups. You may also see something similar with two dogs in a dispute over a bone.

Dogs do a lot of snarling, snapping, growling, and barking, but usually very little actual biting. Two dogs can look like they're "fighting" and killing each other but if you taped it and slow-motioned it, you'd see that there is very little contact. They may grab each other's neck skin, but if they really wanted to (obviously) they could rip the other dog's throat out. It's mostly roleplay, domination, and communication. They know how far to go. Your pup doesn't. That's why it's SOOOO important you teach him before somebody gets hurt.

Also, find a fenced dog park and take him there. The other dogs will socialize him REAL fast. Just make sure all the dogs are off their leads. Dogs act much differently on a lead than off. On lead they are protecting you and are restrained. Off lead is more natural. It's usually hard to get dog park newbies to realize their dogs are safer off-lead.

It's different if you take him to somebody's yard to meet their dogs. That's those dog(s)' turf. That's why dog parks are great...it's neutral territory.

Again... good luck!

Walt

Hi,

I was passing through and caught this thread. I strongly disagree with flipping a dog over on its back and staring into its eyes. This is called the alpha roll and it has been found to cause more aggression in dogs. The Alpha Roll, besides being obsolete, has proven to be detrimental to the health and mental well-being of your dog, as well as downright dangerous to the "Roller".

The only reason that a dog will FORCEFULLY flip another dog over on its back is to kill the animal. By forcing an animal to submit in that way you are literally putting the fear of death into them, they think you are trying to kill them. It is not surprising that a lot of people get bit trying to do the alpha roll - the dog believes that the human is trying to kill them so they try and defend themselves. Doing this behavior to an already dominant animal can increase the likelihood of aggression. Doing this to an already submissive animal will increase the fear in that animal - leading to submissive urination and possible fear biting. Hands should never, ever be used to hurt an animal - an alpha roll does just that and its efficacy at asserting dominance is next to zero.

This dog needs some obedience training. I would suggest reading some of Kathy Diamond Davis's articles on training:

http://www.veterinarypartner.com/Content.plx?P=SRC&S=4&SourceID=60&EVetID=0

She has some great articles and an article about the alpha roll.

Good luck!

I never said to "flip" the dog.

This is not an aggressive dog. This is a puppy that needs to learn his place. If he doesn't submit, then the owners have a lot bigger problem. However, he will submit.

I'm not espousing something I read in a book or a case study. I'm speaking from experience. It works.

You are NOT putting the fear of death in them. Do you think their mothers put the "fear of death" in them? You are not communicating that you're trying to kill them. That's just ridiculous. It's just telling them that the human is dominant over them. I've done this to my dogs and they are loyal and loving pets. They don't fear me at all. They view me as one of their pack, which is how it should be...just that I'm the alpha in that pack.

When dogs play, they often grab each other by the throat, but they don't rip the other dog's throat out. Does the other dog then have the "fear of death"?? No. They take a turn and do the same thing. Play is turns of dominance and submission. Training is dominance, love, and praise.

Obedience training is always an option. However, if you know anything about Sibes, they are difficult to train because they are so headstrong, stubborn, and SMART. The best you can hope for is conditioning them and learning to motivate them. Most of the time they KNOW what YOU want them to do. They just consciously think over whether THEY want to comply or not. I see this all the time. Have you ever tried to retrieve a Sibe that got off leash or out the gate? Good luck.

Walt

Here's where Minuet copied most of her post from:

http://dogs.about.com/cs/basictraining/a/alpha_roll.htm

I never said hold it by the throat. I do it by the chest. My dogs have never urinated from it. I don't do it all the time. I don't recommend doing it all the time.

This is a specific instance of a specific behavior that is dangerous to the owner and her family/friends. I think Anne will get his attention with this. I also recommended she yelp, which is a signal a dog gives another that another dog went too far and something hurt.

Here's a quote from a Wikipedia article on it:

"In the original context, the alpha roll was only meant to be used in the most serious cases and always in combination with positive reinforcement techniques."

I think her situation qualifies. I DON'T agree that she'd seriously damage her relationship with her pup or give it psychological problems, or traumatize it.

Here's another link to read that I just saw reflect what I said about using it only in specific circumstances...

http://www.gsdhelpline.com/alpha.htm

Walt

http://doityourself.com/info/whosboss.htm

This gives some other suggestions to establish dominance, in a loving, respectful, FAIR way.

Alpha roll is just ONE of them...

Walt

>>http://doityourself.com/info/whosboss.htm
>>

I find many things in this website that are disturbing. For one thing we are not dogs, and I personally see no reason for us to try to discipline a dog like a dog does. Some good obedience training is all this pup needs. Training the pup to sit when you approach will solve most of the problems. It just takes time and patience.

Even this article linked above states the alpha roll probably isn't the best method to us in most cases. Personally, I've never needed to use such methods. I prefer to use positive reinforcement, not negative. I've never had to touch a dog to teach it to obey me, except when showing it what I wanted in the beginning such as teaching to sit by gently pushing down on the hindquarters while holding a treat over their head.

I still stand by my thoughts on reading Kathy's articles and find a good trainer to learn some obedience training with your pup.

Good luck!

I respect your opinion, Minuet. There are a lot of articles that dispute the alpha roll. I just know it worked for me in the past, and I'm curious to see how Anne's "Smokey" responded.

I did an experiment tonight.

I tried to get Nikki to lay down (she doesn't like to do it). She was sitting next to Shadow (over by the treat jar).

I said "Down" and pointed to the floor. Bam. Shadow went down. Nikki sat and stared at me.

I tried Nikki again... nothing.

I stared in her eyes and commanded it. Nothing... stared back.

I tapped her under the chin and tried again ... nothing.

I tapped under the chin again and repeated ... nothing.

Then I lightly grabbed the loose skin under her ear and shook it, then commanded again ... BAM ... she layed down.

(Then they both got treats and praise.)

So, unscientifically, one of the suggestions on that page worked. I'm going to keep trying.

Walt

Walt,

I also respect your opinion and I'm glad this method has worked for you and continues to do so. I read Anne's response seeing that this worked somewhat for her. I hope it continues to work and that the pup gets to be a well behaved boy. The method would just scare me with a large dog that already bites. Maybe Husky's need this with their tempermant. I'm far from an expert. I've got a potential biter too, but we know her problem is invading her space. As long as we respect her personal space and make her fully aware we are approaching her, she is fine. It's when she doesn't realize we are there and we startle her. I would never be able to use this method on her as I know she would bite. She really only needs a stern word and the tail goes between the legs and I really don't do this often. She's been a spook from day one and it's just the way she is.

Anne, good luck with him! I'm sure you'll work out the best method that works for you and him.

Min

>>http://www.gsdhelpline.com/alpha.htm
>>

This is a very good article. I haven't seen it before. This one also doesn't seem to recommend the alpha roll. Even though your dog is biting in play, trying to do this with him could result in more bites.

This is the best paragraph in the whole article:

Obedience classes can be a wonderful way to learn to communicate effectively with your dog. They have very little to do with teaching the dog and everything to do with teaching you! Most canine problems are really people problems that can be corrected with a little education and lots of patience!

Thank you for sharing this article!

THANK YOU for all the training info, I am going to check out all those links in depth! I appreciate hearing about your experiences with Husky behavior.

*********I tried the "Alpha roll" thing this evening, when Smokey got frisky and started biting me. He squirmed worse than a piglet, and screeched, and struggled to bite me. I persevered though. When I let him up, he seemed a little subdued and sort of circled me cautiously, giving me a little bite on my tennis shoe and not on part of my flesh.

That was good...

Did it produce long lasting effects? I don't know, yet... But when I took him out into the yard before bedtime, he DID NOT jump on me and try to bite me!! Major breakthrough there, since he associates "yard" with "jumping on and biting a human if a human happens to be there with him."

Fortunately, we don't have any children in the house. That could be scary, as a Husky pup can get quite brazen in their play... I live with my folks, and we are adults capable of extracting ourselves from (strong) puppy teeth!!! My two teen sisters are not quite as firm with Smokey, but they can still defend themselves when Smokey gets in his "bite" mood.

My Dad went to obedience classes a decade ago with our aged Golden Retriever, and he is working on training Smokey with his knowledge. So far Smokey can SIT, STAY and COME. I will have to try enforcing the SIT command when the biting starts. IF it continues, after that alpha move I did on him...

Well, thanks again, you guys. You're great.
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Anne Elizabeth
aetrainer@msn.com

I'm glad it's helping.

Keep us posted, and more pics please!

Walt