Reptile & Amphibian Forums

i have a 2 year old Australian Cattle Dog mix, Cordelia, and i have a real moral issue with using a choke collar, but she can get pretty aggressive and doesn't hesitate to choke herself on her leash by standing up on her hind legs against the leash. so far i have only trained by rewarding good behavior and have had some degree of sucess. on walks i'd say she calmly heels about 70% of the time. she has succesfully completed 2 obedience courses and does pretty well with the basic commands unless something sets her off (like my doorbell ringing, a kid on a bike, a squirrel, etc.). the only reason i am even considering a chain collar is to try and snap her out of it when she goes berserk, i almost feel like it would hurt her less than when she just fights her plain collar. my main issue is that i am afraid it would hurt her feelings or make her think i'm angry with her, we are very close and i would hate to make her feel bad (even though i know that may not be an issue with dog psychology), i just don't want to make her feel betrayed or sad or anything like that, frankly i'd rather she keep going after people than that. my second concern is the fact that i don't really know if she learns anything with a chain collar, like will she eventually learn to obey, even when she's going nuts, when the collar isn't on and then i can phase it out, or will it have to be around forever? as many opinions as possible would be appreciated, as i would like to hear both sides of the coin from regular people with experience. thanks in advance. ed

>>i have a 2 year old Australian Cattle Dog mix, Cordelia, and i have a real moral issue with using a choke collar, but she can get pretty aggressive and doesn't hesitate to choke herself on her leash by standing up on her hind legs against the leash. so far i have only trained by rewarding good behavior and have had some degree of sucess. on walks i'd say she calmly heels about 70% of the time. she has succesfully completed 2 obedience courses and does pretty well with the basic commands unless something sets her off (like my doorbell ringing, a kid on a bike, a squirrel, etc.). the only reason i am even considering a chain collar is to try and snap her out of it when she goes berserk, i almost feel like it would hurt her less than when she just fights her plain collar. my main issue is that i am afraid it would hurt her feelings or make her think i'm angry with her, we are very close and i would hate to make her feel bad (even though i know that may not be an issue with dog psychology), i just don't want to make her feel betrayed or sad or anything like that, frankly i'd rather she keep going after people than that. my second concern is the fact that i don't really know if she learns anything with a chain collar, like will she eventually learn to obey, even when she's going nuts, when the collar isn't on and then i can phase it out, or will it have to be around forever? as many opinions as possible would be appreciated, as i would like to hear both sides of the coin from regular people with experience. thanks in advance. ed

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You really need the help of a class instructor, trainer or behavior specialist in person to help determine the right training tools for your dog and to teach you how to work with the dog. This is not an easy dog, obviously. There really is a great deal of skill involved in training and handling such a dog. It's not something you can learn online or from books. Every dog is different, too.
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Kathy Diamond Davis, author, "Therapy Dogs: Training Your Dog to Reach Others," 2nd edition, and the free Canine Behavior Series articles at http://www.veterinarypartner.com/Content.plx?P=SRC&S=1&SourceID=47

i've worked with a couple well thought of trainers and have had much more success with books and the internet, i have certainly come to the conclusion that training classes are beneficial only in that it allows you to train your dog with so many other canine distractions (and also when other dogs set a good example), basically every trainer seems to try to get you to buy as many products as possible and do whatever it takes to get results. to me results are secondary, i'd rather have a crazy dog that's happy than a well behaved dog that is sad or afraid of me. my main quetion is about the morality of chain collars on a 50 pound dog, to me it seems really wrong, but then some people say it's okay. also, i don't want to cross that line from alpha dog to bully and make her afraid of me, like i said before, i would rather she stay rowdy than feel like i'm bullying her or that i betrayed her, b/c they are so into their owners, i couldn't do that to her, basically i want a bunch of experiences or opinions if anybody can provide them.

>>i've worked with a couple well thought of trainers and have had much more success with books and the internet, i have certainly come to the conclusion that training classes are beneficial only in that it allows you to train your dog with so many other canine distractions (and also when other dogs set a good example), basically every trainer seems to try to get you to buy as many products as possible and do whatever it takes to get results. to me results are secondary, i'd rather have a crazy dog that's happy than a well behaved dog that is sad or afraid of me. my main quetion is about the morality of chain collars on a 50 pound dog, to me it seems really wrong, but then some people say it's okay. also, i don't want to cross that line from alpha dog to bully and make her afraid of me, like i said before, i would rather she stay rowdy than feel like i'm bullying her or that i betrayed her, b/c they are so into their owners, i couldn't do that to her, basically i want a bunch of experiences or opinions if anybody can provide them.
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I train my dogs for temperament first, but control is essential, too. A chain collar is a tool that some people can use safely on some dogs. A slip collar of fabric is a better idea even for these highly skilled trainers. The collar doesn't train the dog. It sounds like you've found a couple of poor trainers. When you find a good one, you'll see the difference. You should not use a slip collar without expert instruction in person, and there are better options in most cases. A head halter would probably work better in your case, but that, too, requires in-person instruction. Someone has to "read" the dog, and the questions you're asking indicate that you do need help with that.

I've used all kinds of collars. I'd prefer to avoid a slip collar. I won't use a chain. Only if you have the skill to keep the leash loose can it be safe to use a slip collar. It is one of the most difficult training collars to use properly. It will not solve any dog problem. It's just a tool for a trainer who could probably solve that same problem in three or four different ways--or more.
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Kathy Diamond Davis, author, "Therapy Dogs: Training Your Dog to Reach Others," 2nd edition, and the free Canine Behavior Series articles at http://www.veterinarypartner.com/Content.plx?P=SRC&S=1&SourceID=47

yeah i figured it was crazy that any truly useful tool would require so much skill to use b/c of what you just said about how anyone who knows how to ue wouldn't need it....as far as temperment, i think her temperment is great, i don't have any complaints about that, she's jut tough to control sometimes....i worked with this one guy with a gentle leader under the recommendation of a vet, but she was pretty miserable and the minute i looked away, it would only take one bite to wreck the collar, i must've gone through three or four in a very short period of time....all the breeders i have worked with have come pretty well recomended either from other dog owners, vets, the trainer who led my puppy class, etc....it just seems like they all have agendas that have nothing to do with my goals or reasons for owning a dog....whne you say fabric slip collars, do you mean like the ones' that the vet puts on them when they take them for a nail trim or whatever, like what cesar milan (btw, i would say he seems like a trainer who can be relied on, but he's not an option)uses? b/c she actually does seem to respond well to those, i figure since they're so lightweight.

>>yeah i figured it was crazy that any truly useful tool would require so much skill to use b/c of what you just said about how anyone who knows how to ue wouldn't need it....as far as temperment, i think her temperment is great, i don't have any complaints about that, she's jut tough to control sometimes....i worked with this one guy with a gentle leader under the recommendation of a vet, but she was pretty miserable and the minute i looked away, it would only take one bite to wreck the collar, i must've gone through three or four in a very short period of time....all the breeders i have worked with have come pretty well recomended either from other dog owners, vets, the trainer who led my puppy class, etc....it just seems like they all have agendas that have nothing to do with my goals or reasons for owning a dog....whne you say fabric slip collars, do you mean like the ones' that the vet puts on them when they take them for a nail trim or whatever, like what cesar milan (btw, i would say he seems like a trainer who can be relied on, but he's not an option)uses? b/c she actually does seem to respond well to those, i figure since they're so lightweight.
>>

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There are fabric collars that can choke if misused, there are "buckle" collars (often it's a snap instead of a buckle) that have no slip, and there are partial slip collars such as Martingales and Greyhound collars. Cesar Milan's collar is designed to put pressure at the top of the throat and may or may not be a good thing. It's very new, not that tested as far as I know. And there are no scientific test results on dog collars anyway, just a lot of observations that may or may not be valid. Whatever collar you use needs to be well made so it won't fall apart and leave you with a loose dog at just the wrong time.
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Kathy Diamond Davis, author, "Therapy Dogs: Training Your Dog to Reach Others," 2nd edition, and the free Canine Behavior Series articles at http://www.veterinarypartner.com/Content.plx?P=SRC&S=1&SourceID=47

Cordelia has a plain buckle collar that is nylon or something for daily wear and a spiked leather collar (also with a buckle) for when she's going out on the town, she doesn't really seem aware of them at all except for a few minutes of strutting when she puts on the spiked one, since it kind indicates a special occasion to her i assume, in her whole life they are the only 2 collars she hasn't managed to completely destroy (although she has done a little of her own "enhancement" to each....i have no doubt that they will neither break nor come off in any situation, though, does that sound alright?

oh yeah, they are both around and inch or so wide and she wears them basically as loose as possible without being able to force them over her head (which roughly complies to the two or three finger rules that i have seen suggested)

I like to have loose collars on my dogs, but I don't think that I'm the norm. However, when I'm training, we used the rolled leather collars and put them high on the dogs head, just under the ears, but the atlas. It gives more control that way.

I quit using chain collars a while ago. My Lilly is dog aggressive and did lunge and snarl at nearly any dog she saw. We took to playing in the fenced back yard rather than taking walks! A professional trainer had me use a Halti and it worked wonders. I can now take her into the dog food store and she doesn't lunge...she can't with the halti--if she does, she ends up turned around facing me because I have her head. The trainer gave me many tactics to use with her and after a summer of resocialization classes, she is much better. There is another head collar that is rather pricy but it has a padded nose piece that friend of mine prefers. good luck!

>>I quit using chain collars a while ago. My Lilly is dog aggressive and did lunge and snarl at nearly any dog she saw. We took to playing in the fenced back yard rather than taking walks! A professional trainer had me use a Halti and it worked wonders. I can now take her into the dog food store and she doesn't lunge...she can't with the halti--if she does, she ends up turned around facing me because I have her head. The trainer gave me many tactics to use with her and after a summer of resocialization classes, she is much better. There is another head collar that is rather pricy but it has a padded nose piece that friend of mine prefers. good luck!

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The Halti is really good for "mouth behaviors," when you keep a loose leash so that the dog can feel a distinct difference when the halter tightens and closes the mouth to stop wild barking or snapping, etc. It requires skill to use, more so than the Gentle Leader does. But the Gentle Leader has to be fitted so tightly, and doesn't control the mouth as well, that I think the Halti really is the best choice for this.
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Kathy Diamond Davis, author, "Therapy Dogs: Training Your Dog to Reach Others," 2nd edition, and the free Canine Behavior Series articles at http://www.veterinarypartner.com/Content.plx?P=SRC&S=1&SourceID=47

Cesar Milan's collar is designed to put pressure at the top of the throat and may or may not be a good thing. It's very new, not that tested as far as I know. And there are no scientific test results on dog collars anyway, just a lot of observations that may or may not be valid. Whatever collar you use needs to be well made so it won't fall apart and leave you with a loose dog at just the wrong time.
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>>Kathy Diamond Davis, author, "Therapy Dogs: Training Your Dog to Reach Others," 2nd edition, and the free Canine Behavior Series articles at http://www.veterinarypartner.com/Content.plx?P=SRC&S=1&SourceID=47

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My impression is that Cesar doesn't have a special type of collar, but it's his placement. We've been placing the collar there for years (we use the rolled leather collars). I haven't seen any research on it either. I'd be interested to see it though.

The reason why we do it is that the dog (particularly well-muscled dogs) can feel the communication through the leash and the collar much better when it is placed just under the jaw. Many dogs you don't have to do this with, but with some it helps quite a bit.

Maybe you've done this, as an experiment, take your hand, open it, and make an "L" with your thumb and first finger. Then press against the front of the neck high, just under your jaw. Then move it down to lower parts of your neck. Most people seem to feel more pain or sensitivity when it is lower on the neck, though not all. Now do the same to the side of your neck...you need much less pressure to feel a "tap tap" with the leash when it is high, close to the ears, rather than lower on the neck.

I've thought way to much about this, but I have dogs with neck issues. The concern for me is if it's used improperly, you can really whack a dog's atlas out of adjustment. Lower on the neck you knock out the C6 and C7. The atlas being so important, I would rather have the C6-7 out.

With our boy with neck issues, I do keep the collar low, and in fact I use an inch wide collar rather than the rolled leather. The rolled collars will give a tiny bit of correct -- while they can cause the dog to feel the leash better, they can yank a bit more and cause more stress on the neck. Of course I'm talking about a well-muscled, stubborn dog, with medical issues.

.......Cesar Milan's collar is designed to put pressure at the top of the throat and may or may not be a good thing. .....
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>>Kathy Diamond Davis, author, "Therapy Dogs: Training Your Dog to Reach Others," 2nd edition, and the free Canine Behavior Series articles at http://www.veterinarypartner.com/Content.plx?P=SRC&S=1&SourceID=47

I thought Cesar's collar was just a way to place a rolled collar, but he actually has a collar....guess I should pay closer attention.

This is a sentence from one of your posts that , I believe, is the essence of the problem:

"my main issue is that i am afraid it would hurt her feelings or make her think i'm angry with her, we are very close and i would hate to make her feel bad (even though i know that may not be an issue with dog psychology), i just don't want to make her feel betrayed or sad or anything like that, frankly i'd rather she keep going after people than that."

If you are sincere when u say this- the chances for success in altering her hooligan-like behavious are nil.

You do realize, don't you, that the law will make no allowance for your desire to prevent hurting your dog's feelings - if your dog bites a child on a bike (or whatever).

Obviously, from what I've said above, I believe that civilized behaviour should take precedence over your perception of her feelings. You don't need to be nasty to make her behave, by the way, you need to make sure you're rewarding good behaviour and, in the case of aggression, punishing bad behaviour. "Punishing" doesn't mean hurting. It means making sure she understands that her action sollicits something she wants to avoid. This way she'll stop taking that action.

A prong collar is probably a good idea for this dog.
It is NOT difficult to make it effective, IF it's going to be effective at all it will be so automatically. (Don't jerk it - it's a prong, not a choke).

If your dog doesn't inhibit her lunging ON HER OWN because of the prongs, stop using it, because that's the only way they work well.

A sweety, sweety, ooh baby, pretty baby, attitude towards the dog doesn't make u a good dog owner. Neither does it make u a bad one. But being the type of dog owner you're characterizing yourself as - probably means you should have chosen a breed of dog where the vast majority of it's members have VERY LOW animal and people agression. Unfortunately, as adorable as they are Australian Cattle Dogs do not belong to that group of breeds.

Good luck to you, your dog and those at risk from her behaviour.

I agree with all of your concerns regarding a chain collar, though for perhaps different reasons. I'm a trainer and we don't allow them where we train.

It sounds like you have not found the right trainer. While the social distractions are very important, so is having a trainier that can teach you how to teach your dog what you want her to do without harming her. A *good* trainer can teach you all sorts of things about training your dog.

If you want control during the "beserk" moments while you are still in training, you might try using a front clip harness. I use the one by soft touch (sense-ation) for my GSD, though there are a couple of others on the market:

http://www.softouchconcepts.com/

the idea is when the dog pulls, the shoulders are rotated toward you so she can't lunge and go nuts. As with any training tool, it just controls the dog, not trains them, but it can buy you some control while you are training.

For the "bezerk" moments, if you haven't already read it, you might go over to www.dogwise.com and order either of patricia mcconnel's books -- cautious canine, or feisty fido. Both have a similar philosophy -- choose the one that seems to best fit your girl.

http://www.dogwise.com/itemdetails.cfm?ID=DTB586
http://www.dogwise.com/itemdetails.cfm?ID=DTB766

is there a serious concern that the harness will become a crutch and that its absence will provoke a return of bad habits if i do that? i was told that by one trainer, but his solution was to just always keep a chain collar with her leash and that that would be the bet way to go....this is just one of the many opinions that i ahve recieved which led to the original post.....what do you think?

>>is there a serious concern that the harness will become a crutch and that its absence will provoke a return of bad habits if i do that? i was told that by one trainer, but his solution was to just always keep a chain collar with her leash and that that would be the bet way to go....this is just one of the many opinions that i ahve recieved which led to the original post.....what do you think?

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The head halter seems to have the biggest problem with training not transitioning off that collar. It is just so different from a buckle collar that "off" vs "on" is a huge and obvious difference to the dog. Well, the same is true for the electronic collar, with that battery/electrode box. That's why they make "dummy collars" of those, for the dog to wear part of the time and not ever know which is "real." I have no idea whether that works. I'm not shocking my dogs. Or "stimulating" them, the term their advocates prefer for the action on a dog of the electronic collar.

We're doing books and DVD by Turid Rugaas on the DogRead Yahoo list right now, and she is adamantly opposed to the "no pull" harnesses. I agree with her. I predict those things will be found to cause real problems due to the pressure points they hit on the dog. Harnesses designed to allow a dog to pull comfortably are her choice. But those don't give much control for training, or for handling a dog in public who might be aggressive. I've used them for many, many hours, especially for tracking and for dogs who were not well or were recovering from surgery. They are very safe if all the hardware is padded. The nylon tracking harness by Nordkyn Outfitters is of this type.

I change collars during the training of my dogs according to what I'm working on with that dog at the time. Training goes over a very big range of behaviors for me, and the dog changes a great deal.

When a training organization puts the same collar on every dog, I question that. With all the shapes, sizes and behavior patterns of dogs involved in a class, no one collar is going to be the right one for all of them. At times I've used a particular type of collar on a dog for two weeks. With one dog I remember using a certain collar for a year, another dog I used a certain collar for three years. Other times I've tried a collar for one training session and decided that wasn't working as I needed it to and changed.

I'm about to start a new dog in the next probably several months, and I'm thinking of starting with a waist leash to a harness and another leash to a collar. I do a great deal of training in public because that is where my dogs ultimately do much of their work. That means I have a dog on leash for teaching and working a whole lot of things: walking on loose leash, heeling, moving to heel, going around behind me to heel, coming when called, fetching, holding an object on command, walking on either side of me, backing up at my side, figuring out how to untangle his/her own leash, and other things.

I often carry a retracting lead to put on just for an exercise along the way, and then back to a regular lead. That means great care in the changing of leads, something I've seen people do so many times incorrectly and wind up with a loose dog. Handling a leash well can be a highly technical skill. Some people get around this by just letting their dogs run loose! Shame on them.
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Kathy Diamond Davis, author, "Therapy Dogs: Training Your Dog to Reach Others," 2nd edition, and the free Canine Behavior Series articles at http://www.veterinarypartner.com/Content.plx?P=SRC&S=1&SourceID=47

yeah i do the same thing with the 2 leashes, she has to heel for a while, then she gets more freedom in the middle of the walk with the retractable....when you refer to a head halter, is that the gentle leader style thing?....also what exactly is a no pull? is that things like pinch collars? do chains fall into that same category?....after these conversations, i still can't seem to justify anything but the traditional collar/leash set up unless any new information comes to light. thanks for the help. ed

>>yeah i do the same thing with the 2 leashes, she has to heel for a while, then she gets more freedom in the middle of the walk with the retractable....when you refer to a head halter, is that the gentle leader style thing?....also what exactly is a no pull? is that things like pinch collars? do chains fall into that same category?....after these conversations, i still can't seem to justify anything but the traditional collar/leash set up unless any new information comes to light. thanks for the help. ed

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Gentle Leader is one brand of head halter. I like the Halti better, but it requires more skill from the handler. There are others, and I've not tried any but those two. The no-pull harness hits pressure points on the dog's body (doesn't go around head or neck) to make the dog stop pulling to avoid the pressure. I think pain is involved, others don't all agree.

I don't think you can put training devices into clear categories. A prong collar used to be recommended ONLY for dogs who are neither sensitive to touch (typical example would be a Labrador) or aggressive (again, Labrador). I still think that is a good criteria. Prong is the same as pinch, by the way, and there are small prongs that apply more pressure and large prongs that apply less. The fit changes the pressure, and so does whether or not you use a cover, covered tips, whatever. I believe anything other than a nonrestrictive chest harness or a non-slip collar should be with the goal of moving beyond the need for a special collar. That said, not all dogs can make it. I have a dog who at age 13 still needs a Halti to go to the vet, and I don't take her anywhere else! She had tons of training and has never injured anyone, but she is a nasty dog.

Probably 50% of a dog's behavior is genetic. Of the improvements you can make through training, the vast majority will be due to your skill. The type of equipment you use will not do any of the work for you--it's a matter of getting the right expert help in person and learning how. Reading can help you recognize the right expert help when you find it, but there really is no substitute for learning in person. If there are no good local trainers, you may need to go to seminars.
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Kathy Diamond Davis, author, "Therapy Dogs: Training Your Dog to Reach Others," 2nd edition, and the free Canine Behavior Series articles at http://www.veterinarypartner.com/Content.plx?P=SRC&S=1&SourceID=47

>>We're doing books and DVD by Turid Rugaas on the DogRead Yahoo list right now, and she is adamantly opposed to the "no pull" harnesses. I agree with her. I predict those things will be found to cause real problems due to the pressure points they hit on the dog. Harnesses designed to allow a dog to pull comfortably are her choice. But those don't give much control for training, or for handling a dog in public who might be aggressive........

>>Kathy Diamond Davis, author, "Therapy Dogs: Training Your Dog to Reach Others," 2nd edition, and the free Canine Behavior Series articles at http://www.veterinarypartner.com/Content.plx?P=SRC&S=1&SourceID=47

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KathyDD,

I didn't realize until about a month ago that you are the moderator of that list. It's an awesome list. I unfortunately haven't had the time to follow along most years, but during the summer I catch up a bit, and was delighted to see July's guest.

I'm very interested in the topic about the front clip harnesses. I can see where there may be problems where it hits, and I hope that it's discussed on the list. For Indy, my trained dog, I use a regular harness, but the GSD is too strong and not yet trained so he lunges and cause pain for both of us in those instances. He's come a long way, but in those unpredictable instances, he can cause me quite a bit of pain.

I know I could probably look it up on the website, but has the Dogread group had Coren on, I think his most recent book was "How Dog's Think"?

>>>>We're doing books and DVD by Turid Rugaas on the DogRead Yahoo list right now, and she is adamantly opposed to the "no pull" harnesses. I agree with her. I predict those things will be found to cause real problems due to the pressure points they hit on the dog. Harnesses designed to allow a dog to pull comfortably are her choice. But those don't give much control for training, or for handling a dog in public who might be aggressive........
>>
>>>>Kathy Diamond Davis, author, "Therapy Dogs: Training Your Dog to Reach Others," 2nd edition, and the free Canine Behavior Series articles at http://www.veterinarypartner.com/Content.plx?P=SRC&S=1&SourceID=47
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>>KathyDD,
>>
>>I didn't realize until about a month ago that you are the moderator of that list. It's an awesome list. I unfortunately haven't had the time to follow along most years, but during the summer I catch up a bit, and was delighted to see July's guest.
>>
>>I'm very interested in the topic about the front clip harnesses. I can see where there may be problems where it hits, and I hope that it's discussed on the list. For Indy, my trained dog, I use a regular harness, but the GSD is too strong and not yet trained so he lunges and cause pain for both of us in those instances. He's come a long way, but in those unpredictable instances, he can cause me quite a bit of pain.
>>
>>I know I could probably look it up on the website, but has the Dogread group had Coren on, I think his most recent book was "How Dog's Think"?

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I want Stanley Coren on DogRead, but he didn't respond to email, so he's probably too busy. I do now sometimes schedule a book without the author, but that's the exception. At least it is for now. Turid Rugaas hasn't had occasion yet this month to talk about the no-pull harnesses on the list, but she does discuss it in her two books. On Talking Terms with Dogs has a new edition. Her DVD is great, too, very worth it.
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Kathy Diamond Davis, author, "Therapy Dogs: Training Your Dog to Reach Others," 2nd edition, and the free Canine Behavior Series articles at http://www.veterinarypartner.com/Content.plx?P=SRC&S=1&SourceID=47

>>I want Stanley Coren on DogRead, but he didn't respond to email, so he's probably too busy. I do now sometimes schedule a book without the author, but that's the exception. At least it is for now. Turid Rugaas hasn't had occasion yet this month to talk about the no-pull harnesses on the list, but she does discuss it in her two books. On Talking Terms with Dogs has a new edition. Her DVD is great, too, very worth it.
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>>Kathy Diamond Davis, author, "Therapy Dogs: Training Your Dog to Reach Others," 2nd edition, and the free Canine Behavior Series articles at http://www.veterinarypartner.com/Content.plx?P=SRC&S=1&SourceID=47

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I'm almost done with Stanley Coren's book and it's a wealth of information...I don't want to read too much at one time because I need time to absorb what he's written.

Wow, it's been a long time since I've read/watched Turid Rugaas' work -- it was the first edition, and it was out on video, no DVD!!

I'll have to ask on the list....I usually just lurk

Thanks.

I have used both a head halter (gentle leader) and the front clip harness, and I agree with Kathy. The head halter is really tough to transition from. At training, when we take them off of the dogs that use them, there's a huge difference.

Personally, I think that most dogs can be trained with a regular buckle collar and leash (we use the rolled leather ones at training). However, if the dog is getting too much success at reacting, then you aren't making progress and a higher degree of control, or a modification to your technique is called for (changing the timing, exposure, type of reward, voice, etc.)

I like the front clip harness. Once I can control the dog with that, it seems like I can switch to the collar without the changes I've seen with the head halter. Also, if you have a dog that tends to go bezerk on occasion, I think training on the harness is better for the neck that a regular collar. I have also found that with my GSD that has an eye condition, pressure from either a collar or a head halter makes his eye worse.

i actually use a prong collar on mine because he is very stong and a puller. It is the best thing for us, because now he goes for more walks that are much for fun for him, and it keeps him out of troublr