Reptile & Amphibian Forums

We adopted a dog from the SPCA - she was very skinny and actually had parvo - we caught it in time and she was nursed back to health by the local vet and ourselves. She is generally a good dog, however, she does have some issues. She doesn't listen very well when you call her, at the cottage she runs out to the road and chases people on bikes and has even nipped at a couple people - she has never bitten anyone (as far as we know - we adopted her at 1 year of age) but has not bitten anyone while in our care. She is now approximately 2. She barks at any new people arriving. We live on an acreage and as far as sticking around here she is good. She has taken one set of classes of obedience training. She did not do very well as she was very easily distracted by all the other dogs and barked at the people including the instructor. She especially does not like anyone shaking their finger at her - then she barks even more. She can also be very dominating with my one little dog who basically just turtles on the ground when Sunny comes near her. She also chases my 2 cats and nips at them. When you try to tell her no it is like she doesn't even hear you. I do not like "spanking" my animals when they have done something wrong. She actually cracked the window by our front door the other day when we left for work - she was scratching it so much she actually cracked the window.

But she is not all bad - she is very loving when she feels secure and comfortable in her own surroundings.

Does anyone have any suggestions on how to train her? Does she need private obedience lessons to start off with?

How would I get her to stop chasing the cats or dominating my little dog?

Thank you in advance.

Do you have any guesses as to what breed this dog may be? She's sounds like she's got some herding breed in her- aussie or boarder collie. The reason I say that is the behaviors yo uare describing seem like high intensity drive type things. Thise type of behavior needs to be channeled into something positive- translation- this dog needs a job of sorts.

Dogs with this much energy and drive are fun to train, when you can figure out how to get them to focus their energy on you. It sounds like you need to teach this dog what she CAN do instead of what she can't do. Dont' set her up for failure and let her wander off. Keep her on leash and praise lavishly for following you. Get her back to a class and do the homework. Yes, she will be distracted, but it's your job to teach her how to focus on you in spite of the distractions. Use treats and be more exciting than the distractions around you- that may mean beign a bit goofy or talking excited- it doesn't matter- reward lavishly for paying attention to you.

You have a smart dog on your hands, Dr. Ian Dunbar has many books that can teach you how to communicate with such a clever dog. Set her up for success and discontinue letting her fail and make mistakes. Dogs learn all the time- it's your job to teach what you want her to do.
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Chelle and the rest of the crew including, but not limited to Kita and Taiko (the shiba inu wrestle maniacs), Adi (reserved and dignified tabby cat), and all 28 reptiles

Hi - thanks for your reply. She is a Nova Scotia Duck Tolling Retriever we are just starting to research her breed. The vet said he hasn't seen alot of these before! Positive reinforcement is helping with her, but she just doesn't seem to listen! She gets fixated on one thing and you can't say anything to make her listen (especially when she is barking at our cat!). I think she may benefit from a few private obedience lessons just to get her to listen to us and learn some basic commands - she does not come very well either. My other dogs are really good at that. I will keep trying because she is here to stay!!!!

These questions come up alot. my suggestion is, if she didn't do very well in obedience classes the first time go again but find an insructor that is more willing to help you then just leave you hanging on your own.

You have to VERY consant. instead of saying"no" teach her leave it. it would take me a long time to answer all of your questions and advise you how to teach these things here.

You can come check us out at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/petdogadvice/ This is my e-mail group...just created to answer such questions.

Char-Vampella
Animal Health Tech/Dog "guru" so I hear lol and list owner.

>>We adopted a dog from the SPCA - she was very skinny and actually had parvo - we caught it in time and she was nursed back to health by the local vet and ourselves. She is generally a good dog, however, she does have some issues. She doesn't listen very well when you call her, at the cottage she runs out to the road and chases people on bikes and has even nipped at a couple people - she has never bitten anyone (as far as we know - we adopted her at 1 year of age) but has not bitten anyone while in our care. She is now approximately 2. She barks at any new people arriving. We live on an acreage and as far as sticking around here she is good. She has taken one set of classes of obedience training. She did not do very well as she was very easily distracted by all the other dogs and barked at the people including the instructor. She especially does not like anyone shaking their finger at her - then she barks even more. She can also be very dominating with my one little dog who basically just turtles on the ground when Sunny comes near her. She also chases my 2 cats and nips at them. When you try to tell her no it is like she doesn't even hear you. I do not like "spanking" my animals when they have done something wrong. She actually cracked the window by our front door the other day when we left for work - she was scratching it so much she actually cracked the window.
>>
>>But she is not all bad - she is very loving when she feels secure and comfortable in her own surroundings.
>>
>>Does anyone have any suggestions on how to train her? Does she need private obedience lessons to start off with?
>>
>>How would I get her to stop chasing the cats or dominating my little dog?
>>
>>Thank you in advance.

Thank you. I am just curious, and not critizising, but what is the difference between "no" and "leave it"? Alot of trainers say not to use "no" and I never understood the difference. Please do not take me the wrong way, I am not questioning your techniques - I just never understood the whole "no" thing! I am not yelling at her and I try to avert her attention to something else and then we walk away. I just sternly say no - but i don't raise my voice and when she does the right thing, which could simply mean just walking away (ie from the cat) she gets positive reinforcement.

Just let me know what is wrong with "no"! Thanks

The problem with "no" is that it is overused and doesn't tell the dog what she is supposed to do. "leave it" means turn your attention to me (praise when eye contact is made) and keep walking. It is always more affective if you tell your dog the behaviour that you want, rather than what you don't want.

uh, affective=effective. so much for my spelling today....

I just feel then you get into too many commands for the dog and "no" is somewhat universal. Like if my dog is peeing in the house what command would I use then? My other 4 dogs know the word "no" and instantly stop what they are doing and as soon as they stop they get praise for listening. I think as humans our automatic response is "no" - i don't yell and I don't spank but when they do something they are not supposed to - they can sense it in my tone. This dog is just something different! I would like to try private obedience lessons just so that there are no distraction until she gets the hang of it. Somedays she is good - today she didn't bother with the cat although he was laying on the sidewalk batting his tail slowly up and down - almost as if to say "i was here first and I'm stayin!" But sometimes she just gets wound up.

"No" is too universal in my opinion. If you want the dog to "stop" say the word "stop." Personally, if my dog is peeing and I catch him in the act, I tell him "outside" which he knows means to go out in the yard because I tell him "outside" as I let him out. Dogs learn incredible voacularies if their owners are consistent with the meaning of the commands they give. I'd say my dogs know about 50 words and their appropriate responses. For me, its just easier to direct them than give blanket "no because I said so" responses. That works for me, my training style, the way my dogs respond to training, etc. Not all dogs need this clear of communication systems set up to be successful, but mine do. Tollers are not a dumb breed, this one may benefit greatly from less generalized communication.
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Chelle and the rest of the crew including, but not limited to Kita and Taiko (the shiba inu wrestle maniacs), Adi (reserved and dignified tabby cat), and all 28 reptiles

Thank you! I wasn't trying to critizize the command thing - I was just wondering. You're right when you say duck tollers are very smart - she is very smart - i just can't seem to break the attention barrier - she gets her eyes on something and she is a dog obsessed! It's like she doesn't even hear me or acknowledge me and that is what I am finding so frustrating - any suggestions on how to get her attention when I am attempting to correct her behavior? I will try teaching her with different vocabulary - i am up for anything!

Like I said - I have 4 other dogs and have not had this much difficulty training.

Attention training is tough- it's tougher with a smart dog and even tougher with an independent dog- tollers can be both.

For my dogs who require huge 'paychecks' for even the most minor of tasks, I use high value rewards. I also use clicker trianing to make things more clear to them what is "right" and when they need to try again. When teaching new behaviors I absolutely do not correct them. The slightest hints that they are trying gets high rewards (food rewards like small pieces of hot dog or steak when the distractiosn are really high, even expensive smelly cheese). I do my best not to make rewards bribes- hence the need for a clicker because these guys quickly learn of there's food around of not and protest if there isn't.

Attention training starts with my dog ALWAYS turning their heads towards me when I say their name. The slightest twinge of even the slightest glance initially gets rewarded. Then over a week or two, add duration for holding that glance. Some dogs don't like looking directly in their owners eyes and that can be a HUGE punishment. It depends on how soft your dog is. One of mine is very soft and I have to make sure my face stays very relazed and when I get eye contact I don't hold it for long, just a "check in." WIth that dog I typically ask for another behavior to keep attention and focus on me. I'll go through a list of what he knows and play with him. That engagement alone doing a number of things will keep his attention and focus.

Smart dogs require creativity. I do a lot of trick training to keep my dogs focused an alert. My guess, your toller will benefit as well. Keep the sessions short, the rewards large, and the criteria for success consistent and attention will follow.
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Chelle and the rest of the crew including, but not limited to Kita and Taiko (the shiba inu wrestle maniacs), Adi (reserved and dignified tabby cat), and all 28 reptiles

I agree with Chelle regarding the "no" being too universal. I do use "no", but it's usually more of an emergency "I mean it" word.

Dogs are very specific. My little dog makes a distinction between "bark" and "speak"...she taught me that she won't "bark" unless she sees something that is wrong. So I had to teach her "speak" just to talk to me.

It sounds like this dog has brought you a new challenge -- what fun!

It sounds to me like you haven't yet found the right trainer. You need one that knows how to use positive reinforcement and can teach you K9 language. There are alot of pretty bad trainers out there, so you may need to go watch a few classes to see which one is the right fit. We have dogs like yours in our classes all the time that are successful.

You will need a good leadership program to follow (NLIF -- nothing in life is free), but stay away from folks/trainers who talk too much about being "alpha" - you need to be consistent, and show her what you want using methods and language that she will understand. Anything by Ian Dunbar, Pat Miller, Terry Ryan, jean Donaldson would be helpful -- you can find many books here: www.dogwise.com

Thanks! I will look those up - I was not critizizing the command thing - I was just curious. We live in a very small city (pop 16,000) and we only have one person offering obedience classes in and around our area. So I may be on my own! Better start reading! WE love her so we are up for anything - thanks again for your advice it was appreciated!

Best of luck!!

I started training by reading books. The value of the courses is having your dog exposed to many dogs and teaching the dog how to behave and to react in those situations. Maybe you can form a play group?

Well, in total with her I have six - they are her playgroup!!!

Actually with the cats I started saying "Sunny, never mind" and she seems to respond to that and is generally leaving them alone more which is good. When I say "never mind" in a calm passive way she looks at me and keeps walking so we are making progress there. I guess sometimes dogs can be like kids. When you say "no" to a child they ask "why"? A dog, of course, cannot talk, so maybe her lack of responding was like saying "why" like "what am i doing wrong?"

She is definitely progressing and I have been trying to give her more attention for the time being on stuff like that.

thanks again for all your advice!