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My Molly - Chihuahua/Terrier x is fat. She is an older dog 10-12 years old (we adopted from shelter 6 years ago - they were unsure of her exact age). Her last exam was in July and she weighed 25 pounds, this was while on a dry weight loss dog food. Anyway, the holistic vet suggested taking her off dry food altogether and feeding her straight protein to help take off the weight. So she has been on a straight protein diet (meat from the butcher - chicken, extra extra lean beef, some sirloin for a treat). She gets 1 cup in the morning and 1 cup in the evening. She has, on occasion, snuck a couple pieces of dry food which the other dogs eat (I have 5 in total!). But when I say the occasional dry food I mean 4 or 5 little pieces and rarely. Her activity level has slowed due to her age (and weight!). We live on an acreage so she is outdoors alot with the other dogs. Her weight is increasing though and she has gained 2 pounds which has me really concerned because 25 pounds is way too heavy as it is. I am scared to exercise her too much because of her little legs. I have taken steps that does not allow her to have access to the other dogs' food at any time so she is strictly eating meat, some egg, plain yogurt (to help her stomach digest).

Does anyone have any other suggestions for my girl. I am very worried about her and I know I am responsible for her weight.

Could there be any other reason she is gaining weight instead of losing it? I was just wondering if I should get the vet to check her for anything else?

Thank you in advance.

carmen

Is the meat raw or cooked ? I have a dog who is 1 1/2 yrs. old and weighs 55 lbs...he is very active. I feed him 1 1/2 lbs. raw meat a day ...half in the morning and half at night. The meat is mixed with some vegetables and egg. I think I would try cutting the dogs food back.Did the vet.say how much he thought the dog should weigh ?
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Winona

She eats cooked food - we bake it. I have cut it back a little but I am going to get her thyroid tested as well. We are also going to try swimming instead of walking! Thanks for the advice!

The vet assistant said she should weight 13-15 pounds so we have a way to go. She gets approximately 1 - 1&1/2 cups a day of mostly meat. Dr. Tobin said to cut out veggies and carbs for now. I do feed her plain non-fat yogurt - she doesn't care for eggs. So we will keep going on the meat - I feed her 3 small meals a day to keep the hunger off. Just a little at a time. Will keep you posted.

I wonder why Dr. Tobin said to cut out vegetables? Did he give you a reason? I'm just curious.
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Kadee Sedtal
home of old lady Lucy (boxer/lab/garbage disposal), pretty girl Fancy (beagle), the rats- Chopin, Tchaikovsky, Pachebel, Fillmore, and Norbert, and the mice- Vivaldi, Brahms, Schubert, Bartok, Rasputin, Chaminade, Rosa, Dorothy, Glenda, and Em... I really ought to stop getting more rodents every time I go out, huh?

Hi. I just looked back at my post when I switched Molly from dry food. He said at that time that eliminating all carbohydrates would help her lose weight - she would get full on protein and that it would meet her nutritional needs. I guess kind of like a doggie atkins?

Carbohydrates take much longer to digest than meat. When they're put into the digestive system at the same time the meat digests first and then has to wait for the carbs to digest, and in the meantime the meat will release toxins into the body. If you were to put on your kitchen counter a piece of meat, a glass of milk, a bowl of oatmeal, and an apple, which rots first? The meat! It only takes a few hours to go bad. Dogs' digestive systems are short, so this is not a problem for them. But when you add carbs to the mix, the meat has to stay in the system longer and isn't good.
So yes, it is a bit of a dog Atkins diet, only dogs have the short digestive system to digest meat, unlike humans. So... carbs themselves aren't the problem, it's just when they're combined with meat.
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Kadee Sedtal
home of old lady Lucy (boxer/lab/garbage disposal), pretty girl Fancy (beagle), the rats- Chopin, Tchaikovsky, Pachebel, Fillmore, and Norbert, and the mice- Vivaldi, Brahms, Schubert, Bartok, Rasputin, Chaminade, Rosa, Dorothy, Glenda, and Em... I really ought to stop getting more rodents every time I go out, huh?

That makes sense. So why do alot of homemade diets made up of grains (rice or oatmeal) veggies and meat? I am by no means critisizing it I am just wondering, because you seem to know alot more about these diets than I do - I have only read a little about homemade diets and gotten a few recipes off the internet (not for molly but for my other dogs). I am also going to look into that website you sent me.

Before listening to a word I say, please know that I am quite eccentric and I do most of my thinking not just outside the box, but far, far away from the box. I myself am a vegetarian, and part of the reason for that choice is because I don't want to poison my body every time I eat, which is what happens when you mix meat and carbs, or any meat at all in the very long digestive system of a human. There is a real lack of "holistic" thinking in the world, and much greed. Dog food companies don't put grain in dog food because it's good for the dog. They do it because there's a big grain industry out there that needs somewhere to dump their bad grain. It's become mainstream to feed dogs meat and grain together, and while some may criticize the low-quality ingredients in kibble, they go home and produce basically the same thing out of good-quality ingredients. Yes, that is a great improvement over low-grade kibble, but the meat is still rotting in the body.
I've been drinking tonight, so I do apologize if any of this doesn't make sense... I'm gonna go watch Star Trek.
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Kadee Sedtal
home of old lady Lucy (boxer/lab/garbage disposal), pretty girl Fancy (beagle), the rats- Chopin, Tchaikovsky, Pachebel, Fillmore, and Norbert, and the mice- Vivaldi, Brahms, Schubert, Bartok, Rasputin, Chaminade, Rosa, Dorothy, Glenda, and Em... I really ought to stop getting more rodents every time I go out, huh?

I agree about the dry kibble - but disagree about feeding them meat and vegetables. There has to be some merit to it - the whole balanced diet thing. That being said I am not closed minded in looking for different things either - different things for different people. I would never do what you are doing tonight because I believe that is poison to the system. But that is another topic. Different things for different people and I respect your opinion so don't worry - your message made sense. Have a good night!

Hi Carmen -

I think this comment really sums up the different advice your getting:
>> different things for different people

My personal opinion, find out everything you can and do your best to make a good decision for Molly.

It sounds like you have the same mentality:
>>That being said I am not closed minded in looking for different things either

So I thought you might like to her my two cents here...

First, to put my $.02 in context, I'm new to the "holistic" dog feeding, forced into it 3.5 yrs ago because our PH girl required it. I've heard and read all sorts of things.

I've been away for the week but I think I remember reading in one of your posts about holistic recipes that included meat and carbs together. In the holistic recipes I've seen with that they've also included cooking the meat. Maybe you've seen different? Just something I noticed in the ones I read. (BTW - since we do so well with raw and no carbs I haven't continued to actively pursue those recipes.)

I personally don't believe that just meat is sufficient for dogs. This is a very controversial subject, so please remember I'm just offering my opinion. One of the arguments I read about this that impressed upon me had to do with teeth. To boil it down it said something like:
Horse = herbivore
Cat = carnivore
Dog = somewhere between the two
I wish I could remember where I read that, so I could give reference along with a better description and more detail. However, I can't, so this is the best I can offer. (Sorry, it's so lame...)

Anyhow, we feed a K9 grind, include some organ meat, and supplement for vitamins, glucosamine, and MSM. We do not add grains... except for treats (their favorites are tiny bits of flour tortilla from our quesadillas and from pizza crusts).

For supplement with the K9 grind we use the following:
Wholistic Canine Complete Joint Mobility
Salmon Oil

We also add yogurt (nonfat, no flavor (sugar) added) and canned pumpkin during times of stress (traveling for example).

If we had the additional time to make up a veggie puree ourselves I likely wouldn't feed the fist product I listed. Instead I would give Synovi G3 Granules - which is what we add on the kibble meals that we do feed. (This last week and a half we've tried a kibble from TimberWolf organics with success, it's the first kibble our PH girl has been able to eat.)

One thing you will likely see me post about again and again is:
What works wonderfully for one dog may not be the prefect match for another dog.

I think that really just come right back to your statement:
>> different things for different people

There are certain things that are "black and white" but then there's all this "grey" area in betweekn.

Ultimately, I think your recent report from the vets shows that you really are on the right track. Everything else you get is just information to help you along that track.

Please do keep us updated to your and Molly's progress! And, best of luck to both of you!

.
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tabitha
Kayo, Kahla, and Dante'

>>Carbohydrates take much longer to digest than meat. When they're put into the digestive system at the same time the meat digests first and then has to wait for the carbs to digest, and in the meantime the meat will release toxins into the body. If you were to put on your kitchen counter a piece of meat, a glass of milk, a bowl of oatmeal, and an apple, which rots first? The meat! It only takes a few hours to go bad. Dogs' digestive systems are short, so this is not a problem for them. But when you add carbs to the mix, the meat has to stay in the system longer and isn't good.
>>So yes, it is a bit of a dog Atkins diet, only dogs have the short digestive system to digest meat, unlike humans. So... carbs themselves aren't the problem, it's just when they're combined with meat.
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>>Kadee Sedtal
>> home of old lady Lucy (boxer/lab/garbage disposal), pretty girl Fancy (beagle), the rats- Chopin, Tchaikovsky, Pachebel, Fillmore, and Norbert, and the mice- Vivaldi, Brahms, Schubert, Bartok, Rasputin, Chaminade, Rosa, Dorothy, Glenda, and Em... I really ought to stop getting more rodents every time I go out, huh?

>>>>>>>>>>>

This is backwards. Carbs turn to sugar (glucose) quickly in the body and are burn fast, raising blood sugar, which raises insulin and makes the dog hungry again more quickly. Fats and proteins burn more slowly and sustain a more level blood sugar and less voracious appetite. Carbs like oatmeal are an exception because the high fiber slows the absorption--if you don't add sugar, that is.

I do Atkins and have lost and kept off 181 pounds on it. We do eat carbs on Atkins, combined with protein and fat, but we stick to healthy carb foods such as green vegetables and berries, not bread, potatoes, sweets, starches, etc, and we keep track of our carbs, eating maybe 60 net carbs a day in maintenance instead of the maybe 300 carbs a day the average American eats. Done correctly, Atkins provides far better nutrition than the way most people eat, with very level blood sugar.
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Kathy Diamond Davis, author, "Therapy Dogs: Training Your Dog to Reach Others," 2nd edition, and the free Canine Behavior Series articles at http://www.veterinarypartner.com/Content.plx?P=SRC&S=1&SourceID=47

I totally agree with you - I am trying to lose weight and doing so eating more protein and less carbs - I mostly eat roasted chicken with Molly and skip the potatoes and gravy. It has been successful for both of us. There is so much merit to the protein vs. carbs issue. I myself feel fuller eating protein and I don't suffer the sugar crashes - which I am sure dogs feel just like humans - so I think that feeding Molly chicken, organ meat, heart, etc. keeps her feeling full longer and she doesn't suffer the sugar crashes I feel - of course that could just be me being a crazy dog mama and thinking my dog thinks and feels like a human! But it seems to be helping both of us. My other dogs that are at a healthy weight get some veggies and oatmeal. I think I am going to stick with what I am doing with molly because it seems to be healthy - I am not against vegans and I am interested in learning more but I am not ready to switch over! Thanks for your reply - it reinforced what I was thinking! Have a good day!

My girls' former vet (we moved, that's the only reason we don't go back) told me all this, and I do trust him. I've also read this about the carbs being slower to digest in many other places. I'm sure Atkins is a great weight loss program, but it is not geared toward longevity. I'd rather myself and my dogs be old than thin... not that any of us were overweight to begin with. A healthy, balanced, varied diet is, for any person or animal, the best way to achieve not only a good weight, but a long life. Plus, who ever met a fat vegetarian?
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Kadee Sedtal
home of old lady Lucy (boxer/lab/garbage disposal), pretty girl Fancy (beagle), the rats- Chopin, Tchaikovsky, Pachebel, Fillmore, and Norbert, and the mice- Vivaldi, Brahms, Schubert, Bartok, Rasputin, Johann, Chaminade, Dorothy, Glenda, and Em... I really ought to stop getting more rodents every time I go out, huh?

>>My Molly - Chihuahua/Terrier x is fat. She is an older dog 10-12 years old (we adopted from shelter 6 years ago - they were unsure of her exact age). Her last exam was in July and she weighed 25 pounds, this was while on a dry weight loss dog food. Anyway, the holistic vet suggested taking her off dry food altogether and feeding her straight protein to help take off the weight. So she has been on a straight protein diet (meat from the butcher - chicken, extra extra lean beef, some sirloin for a treat). She gets 1 cup in the morning and 1 cup in the evening. She has, on occasion, snuck a couple pieces of dry food which the other dogs eat (I have 5 in total!). But when I say the occasional dry food I mean 4 or 5 little pieces and rarely. Her activity level has slowed due to her age (and weight!). We live on an acreage so she is outdoors alot with the other dogs. Her weight is increasing though and she has gained 2 pounds which has me really concerned because 25 pounds is way too heavy as it is. I am scared to exercise her too much because of her little legs. I have taken steps that does not allow her to have access to the other dogs' food at any time so she is strictly eating meat, some egg, plain yogurt (to help her stomach digest).
>>
>>Does anyone have any other suggestions for my girl. I am very worried about her and I know I am responsible for her weight.
>>
>>Could there be any other reason she is gaining weight instead of losing it? I was just wondering if I should get the vet to check her for anything else?
>>
>>Thank you in advance.
>>
>>carmen

>>>>>>>>>>>>

She needs blood testing for hypothyroidism. The blood needs to be sent for analysis either to Dr. Jean Dodds, or to one of the laboratories approved by the OFA for thyroid certification. These are listed at www.offa.org. Other labs often show a dog's thyroid as normal when it is not. Hypothyroidism is extremely common in dogs.
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Kathy Diamond Davis, author, "Therapy Dogs: Training Your Dog to Reach Others," 2nd edition, and the free Canine Behavior Series articles at http://www.veterinarypartner.com/Content.plx?P=SRC&S=1&SourceID=47

Thank you. That is what the holistic vet said to check as well. I will phone for an appointment for her on Monday (our clinics are not open on the weekend). I live in Canada in a very small city in a smaller province! I am going to check to see if they send the test to the veterinary college in a nearby bigger city to see if they specialize in that testing. At any rate, she will be tested next week. I am a little concerned on how much exercise is too much for her! I read that swimming is a little easier on their joints, etc. Too bad they don't have local dog pools! My husband and I are looking into getting her some kind of small pool that I can go into with her. We have a greenhouse and heat it over the winter so we could put it a small pool in there and heat the water a little. I will try anything for her. What do you think of the swimming idea? She does run around the yard, but her little legs tire quickly because she is so fat!

Good luck on Molly's test...let us know what you find out.
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Winona

>>Thank you. That is what the holistic vet said to check as well. I will phone for an appointment for her on Monday (our clinics are not open on the weekend). I live in Canada in a very small city in a smaller province! I am going to check to see if they send the test to the veterinary college in a nearby bigger city to see if they specialize in that testing. At any rate, she will be tested next week. I am a little concerned on how much exercise is too much for her! I read that swimming is a little easier on their joints, etc. Too bad they don't have local dog pools! My husband and I are looking into getting her some kind of small pool that I can go into with her. We have a greenhouse and heat it over the winter so we could put it a small pool in there and heat the water a little. I will try anything for her. What do you think of the swimming idea? She does run around the yard, but her little legs tire quickly because she is so fat!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Exercise is not the way to get weight off a dog. Proper diet is. Exercise helps for other reasons, but does a poor job of weight control, because owner commitment varies so much from season to season and because dogs get hurt and have to go on restricted activity. Swimming has other complications, such as ear infections--and drowning!
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Kathy Diamond Davis, author, "Therapy Dogs: Training Your Dog to Reach Others," 2nd edition, and the free Canine Behavior Series articles at http://www.veterinarypartner.com/Content.plx?P=SRC&S=1&SourceID=47

With all due respect, I disagree with what you are saying about exercise and weight. It is a proven fact that animals, like humans, tend to slow down when they get older and thus, gain extra weight. I am not an expert but don't dogs burn calories when they exercise and does that not result in weight loss or maintaining weight? I understand that diet is probably the main thing but exercise is very important too - anything I have read about an overweight dog is that you must modify diet and have them exercise. You are the first I have come across that debunks this method of weight reduction in animals. About the swimming thing, I have read that it helps in older dogs that are having trouble walking because it is easier on the joints. Since she is having difficulty walking great distances because of her little legs, I thought swimming could be an option. There are certain risks with anything - walking (joint pain) swimming (ear infections). Many people I have come across love having their dogs swim and the dogs love it as well. She would be wearing a life jacket too. As for the drowning thing, I would never, ever, leave my dog unattended in water for even a second. I wouldn't leave a child, so I wouldn't leave my dog. Odds are I would be in the water with her. So I am sorry, I strongly disagree with your opinion this time. I talked to my vet today and she will be seeing him tomorrow for a blood test and checkup. I am sure, like humans, everyone has a different idea on weight loss - otherwise we wouldn't have south beach, atkins, grapefruit, etc.!

Exercise can also give the heart a workout, which is a good thing. Even if exercise *didn't* play a part in losing weight, it makes you feel good! My dogs both feel great after a good run or walk, or even after they've been wrestling. It's good for the soul! Swimming, for an overweight dog, is certainly what I would do. You can always put cotton balls in the dog's ears (not too far, though). There's no weight being put on the joints, and it's great exercise. Human children can also get ear infections from being in the water, but that didn't stop me from letting my little ones swim. Just be careful to not let the dog's head go under, and use a towel to dry inside the ear, no farther down than you can see. Muscles benefit from any exercise, and even if the dog doesn't necessarily lose weight, he/she will burn fat and build muscle, which of course is good. Even with a good weight loss diet, exercise is a great way to keep a dog healthy, plus they enjoy getting out and doing something interesting. Also, for your overweight dog, maybe you could try a glucosamine & chondroitin supplement. It helps out with the joints, and in your overweight baby there's too much weight being put on the joints, which over time could end up causing arthritis. I give it to both my dogs. Ask Dr. Tobin about the proper amount to give if you're interested.
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Kadee Sedtal
home of old lady Lucy (boxer/lab/garbage disposal), pretty girl Fancy (beagle), the rats- Chopin, Tchaikovsky, Pachebel, Fillmore, and Norbert, and the mice- Vivaldi, Brahms, Schubert, Bartok, Rasputin, Chaminade, Rosa, Dorothy, Glenda, and Em... I really ought to stop getting more rodents every time I go out, huh?

Mind if I contact you privately?

Kadee Sedtal
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Kadee Sedtal
home of old lady Lucy (boxer/lab/garbage disposal), pretty girl Fancy (beagle), the rats- Chopin, Tchaikovsky, Pachebel, Fillmore, and Norbert, and the mice- Vivaldi, Brahms, Schubert, Bartok, Rasputin, Chaminade, Rosa, Dorothy, Glenda, and Em... I really ought to stop getting more rodents every time I go out, huh?

not at all - you can email me at bassman@sasktel.net - that is my home email!

Hi Carmen -

While I no longer have a Chi they run strong in my family. I lost my girl 2 years ago, she was almost 16 years old. She was a long hair chi and only 4.5 lbs, I had her from 6 weeks old. We have fed raw for over 3 years now, and my Chi had even moved over to it as a geriatric. (Just our household feeds raw, the rest of the family feeds Avoderm to the Chihuahas and has for close to 10 years, maybe more.)

My first thought is that 2 cups of meat is a lot of food for a geriatric 20 lb dog. Here's my bases for this thought: our 3.5 yr old Pharaoh Hound girl is about 37 lbs and eats less then 1lb of a K9 grind a day. The grind is 50% to 60% bone. This is considerably less meat then what you are feeding. In addition, my old geriatric 4.5 lb girl used to eat maybe a half a cup, split into multiple meals, per day of a commercial raw diet that had bone and veggies in it.

I agree with the others about getting blood work done. While I think checking he thyroid is a good call, I'd suggest a full panel if you haven't had one done recently. A diet change from kibble to just protein should be watched carefully for a geriatric. When we switch my ol' girl over we worked with a holistic vet. We took a blood panel before switching and after, to be able to see how the diet change affected her. If possible, I'd try to see a "holistic" vet that's local. There are some expected changes when going to a protein diet that most "allopathic" (or "western" vets are not fully familiar with as "normal." Either that or, if you can get your regular vet to listen to you and not just prescribe Science Diet. I have yet to see a case where "Science Diet" proved to be a good solution - sorry but I think this food lacks in quality (refer to the Whole Dog Journal if you'd like a great information source at evaluating commercial dog food).

I have two ideas for helping Molly get around more:
1 - Supplement with glucosamine, MSM, and salmon oil (omegas)
2 - Get her a heated bed

Both of these help with stiff joints and arthritis.
A good supplement I have found works well for glucosamine, MSM, and Omega oils is Synovi G3 Granules (granules is key as it has the highest level of Omega oils).
Attached is a picture of what I affectionately called "LaVie's Palace." In the far right is a bed with a heating pad on low. She was able to moderate by moving between her crate and the heated bed. She had a heated bed starting at about 13 years old. Even at 15 she did not have any joint stiffness or arthritis.

Please do updated us on Molly!!

Good luck!!

.

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tabitha
Kayo, Kahla, and Dante'

http://img175.imageshack.us/my.php?image=mollydogsw4.jpg

http://img85.imageshack.us/my.php?image=mollydogby0.jpg

Thank you! Molly is going to the vet tomorrow or tuesday. He is a farm vet and has had a very busy weekend. I had gone on to the holistic vet on this site and he suggested just protein and that she should eat until she is full. I have started feeding her smaller amounts 4 times a day - not twice a day. This seems to be working better. I only feed her about 1/4 cup of meat 4 times a day. She still is pretty active - although she tires when we walk for awhile. We live on an acreage and she runs back and forth with the other dogs. She does not appear to be in any pain (like arthritis). Although I do agree glucosamine is good for dogs. My uncle who sells vitamins gave me a package especially for dogs. IF you can see her picture you will notice she has a body of a terrier! and she loves to hunt like one. The picture was taken by a stream while we were fishing this summer. She does sleep in my bed with me under the covers most of the time. Although she does like when I have my electric blanket on in the winter! I will keep you posted after I hear more from the vet.
Carmen and molly

Link

Hi Carmen -

Ahhh...

I should warn you, I may be biased though...
I am very partial to black nosed doggies having an RRmix and an RR in our family.

Also, huge kudos to you to recognizing your girl is overweight and doing something about it. I see dog owners all the time who have no idea their dog is overweight and won't listen to word one about it. Unfortunately, it's their dog that pays the price...

Here's a pic of our three "kids."
(left to right: Kayo, Dante', and Kahla)

.

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tabitha
Kayo, Kahla, and Dante'