Reptile & Amphibian Forums

This is being re-posted from a spot below....

Looking back, I can't believe that I was so sucked into this forum for so long.... The majority of posters on here are VERY juvenille (not in reference to any individual poster). Most of you just need to get over yourselves, Grow up a little, put your pride aside, and accept other people's opinions. different people have different views, it's ALWAYS going to be that way. a world where everyone has the same view points is called a Utopia. And we're FAR FAR FAR from achieving that in this forum, let alone the world.
Nasr 36 made some good points. The pricing of leopard geckos are getting a little out of hand, and just seem to keep going up every breeding season. It's starting to get out of hand. I never heard anyone insult anyone's taste in morphs. I don't know where that came from. My guess is the game of "telephone". You read the origional thread, and move on to the next and the next... By the time you get down to the last message, you've heard everone's views, and the origional message is already clouded. Y'all end up responding to things taht wereen't ven MENTIONED in the first place.
Live and let live... opinions happen, and most of the time they're different from yours. feel free to discuss eachothers views, but do not try to change someone's opinion. It's just rude. And from the looks of it, there are a LOT of rude people on this board that do not know how to express their opinion.

This isn't an opinion, THIS is a FACT.

Kev
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Kev
1.1.0 Tang Leopard Geckos: Marley, Mary
1.0.0 Normal Leopard Gecko: Toad
0.1.0 Colombian Rainbow Boa: Rambo
1 Beta: Malificent
0.1.0 Tri Australian Shepard: Nelly

You are correct, everyone is entitled to their opinions. That includes those that disagree with you, right?

Also, IMHO leopard gecko prices are about the same as they have been for the past 5 years or so. The first patternless leos were priced higher than ANY of the morphs these days, higher even than the price of the "blazing blizzards". When hypo tangerines were first available, a top quality one would cost over $750. I can remember when blizzards were going for $1000 each.

Same prices, different year, new color morphs.
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Peace-
Kelli Hammack
H.I.S.S.
email me

The last time I kept leopard geckos a basic albino ran $1200 so I see the prices now and I'm like "WOW" and hardly am able to resist pulling out my wallet!

I did just get a nice sub adult 1.6 colony of triple hets Tremper/jungle/patternless hets. Can't wait to get eggs with all those hets to play with!
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Gary Harris - gary@mydixiesys.com
http://www.dixiesys.com/
http://www.8-95.com/

I beg to differ it is your opinion, unless you go by another name like God. Also your post was for nothing more than to aggravate people and inflame a subject that had already seen its way to fruition. My opinion is it is you who need to grow up. Also you might want to see how Webster defines Utopia. As far as get over yourself "BigguyKev" kinda speaks for itself. Guess I'll call myself AirborneRangerTim? As far as getting the gist of the thread you totally lost it. I don't know if it went over your head or under your feet, but I think you need to read the posts over. I'm sure we'll miss you if you decide not to be "sucked"in by this forum anymore.
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LEOs: 3.7.0
1.1 High Yellows (Barney and Betty);1.1 Hypo Tangerines(Bam-bam and Pebbles); 1.1 Rescued Normals (Shleprock) 0.4Tremper Albinos (No names yet), Lookin for a good male breeder
BEARDIES 1.0.0
Snow and Yellow (Fred)

I am new to the gecko world, but I am very familiar with pythons. I still don't understand the pricing on geckos. I understand genetics and all, and realize het for a quality morph is more expensive than the pure wild-type. I see geockos that to me look almost exactly alike (i want to make it clear that I am not referring to hets) and one is 20 bucks and the other 170 bucks. I see pictures of tangerines and carrot tails and they look just like the normal ones I see at shows for 20-30 dollars. Don't you think people are getting carried away pricing things that are just normal. I will see a classified for a gecko that looks to have 2 more spots than normal and now it costs 3 times as much. Designer, jungle? Looks like price gouging. I am probably just too much of a newbie and am totally wrong, but please view it from my eyes. You can show me a piebald, albino, regular, or axanthic ball python and I can see what you are talking about. Ghosts are another issue, I think nothing of them. But these geckos are almost identical. I do see albino, and blizzard. But one breeder will be selling a "high yellow tangerine" for 10 times the amount as another guys "high yellow normal" and they look the same! Please explain, I am confused. Seriously!

Thanks,
Matt

I will post pictures of our 3 new geckos soon, and you can tell me what you think they are or are not.

You just haven't been into leopard geckos long enough to know the difference. I know the different leo morphs as well as you know the ball python morphs. Yes, there are those that post ads picturing lower end gecko priced WAY higher than they should be. It's no different than the people that post absolutely normal ball pythons at jacked up prices because "it has this one white scale". Does that make sense?
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Peace-
Kelli Hammack
H.I.S.S.
email me

I think a lot of different things play into the pricing game.

1) the going price of the morph.
2) The reputation of the breeder. Reputation still stands for a lot these days.
3) The foundation stock. People like stuff from Albie, Kelli, Monte (I wish, LOL), Urban Gecko, Etc. If your breeder animals are from them - that seems to bring you some gecko "crit".
4) $$$$ signs in the eyes. Most of us can be accused of getting greedy at times, or maybe thinking too highly of the value of our animals. The market usually brings us back to earth, though.

That being said, I do have to agree wtih you on the morph labeling practice, esp with tangerines. It's not so bad this year, but even up to last year, there were a lot of people calling leos tangerine, where you had to get out the magnifying glass to see the tangerine mark. The other one is hypo/superhypo. I always think that anything with 11 spots or less is hypo - no spots on the body is super-hypo - no spots on the head is superhypo baldie.

I tend to feel that the market will ultimately determine everything - and there are still a number of great deals out there.
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Monte Meyer
Powergeckos
Email

No Fru-Fru morphs in the herp room

Thank you two for your inputs. I didn't even know that hypo was referring to dots, thanks! Why we are on the subject, what exactly makes a tangerine or a carrot tail. I am guessing that tangerine is an overall orangish color, but how does this differ from a normal. Also I see carrot tail as having a bright orange tail. What exactly makes this? How much bright orange is needed before you can call it a carrot tail? I just bought a normal female that has strong orange where the tail meets the body. It does not have a solid orange tail but kinda looks like what some sell for $100 while I only paid $20. I have been reading the posts on here silently for the past few months learning all I could before I bought geckos last weekend. The color/morph scheme has been the toughest to master. I know nothing about bearded dragons, but they seem similar when I see golden or reds that look just like normals.

Pythons were just where my knowledge is. And I was just using ball pythons as an example as I do not personally keep though. Though I did have former roommates who bred them professionally.

Matt

In my opinion, tangerine means TANGERINE - orangeish color. Like I said earlier, you have a lot of people selling high yellow ones as tangerine.

This one posted is tangerine - from Kelli Hammack that is now a part of my collection. He is also a carrottail.

Carrot-tail is a phrase, I believe, started by Ray Hines. (someone please correct me if I'm wrong). Most normal leos have some reddish/orange in the base of the tail, but in carrottails, they are much more pronounced.

This is where I get confused too. I have hypos that I'm tempted to call carrottails, because they are every bit as much of a carrot tail as those sold for tons more. But I hesitate, because I'm not sure of the genre.

Personally, some of these labels are a lot more ambiguous than I would like. As in everything - BUYER BEWARE - always applies.

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Monte Meyer
Powergeckos
Email

No Fru-Fru morphs in the herp room

Whilst people are prepared to pay high amounts of money for certain leo morphs.... then i don't see the problem.

I am just about to pay $750 for a leo from Ray Hine.. and and i would have paid more.

All this talk of respecting others opinions is ridiculous... as far as I can tell the only one's bashing anyone for their opinions are the "morph haters". If an individual likes normals best then that's great, but there is also nothing wrong with people who like tangs/carrot tails/stripes the best... so why give them any grief over it?

I think the reason those posts ruffled so many feathers is because that is exactly what those posts were meant to do. The only reason to make such posts is to antagonize the many breeders that participate in this forum.

The post(s) were full of opinions presented as "facts", and they were posted by people that have no experience with breeding/selling leopard morphs... The posts were also made with a "know it all" attitude, which didn't help matters.

And I really don't understand why those posters complain about pricing... The price structure of every market is based upon supply and demand; prices will "self correct". No one is twisting anyone's arm to buy into morphs at any given price... if demand falls so will pricing.

This forum has always been one of the friendliest on Kingsnake... I really hope all this pointless arguing will stop soon. We have had many heated debates in the past, but this whole morph controversy is completely pointless.

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-Ross Payan - www.LeosAnonymous.com

Leos Anonymous

Ball Pythons, Red Striped Leos, W.Hognose and Screaming AFT's

. . . everyone knows that one CANNOT put an adequate price on a striped leopard gecko!!!

I'm just having fun with you.

I try to avoid getting sucked into the philosophical debates - because no one ever wins.

Besides, I need to try and keep the stripe prices artificially high!! LOL.
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Monte Meyer
Powergeckos
Email

No Fru-Fru morphs in the herp room

I didn't mean to foil your evil striped plot! lol

=)
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-Ross Payan - www.LeosAnonymous.com

Leos Anonymous

Ball Pythons, Red Striped Leos, W.Hognose and Screaming AFT's

Amen Ross,

Well put as always

Tim
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LEOs: 3.7.0
1.1 High Yellows (Barney and Betty);1.1 Hypo Tangerines(Bam-bam and Pebbles); 1.1 Rescued Normals (Shleprock) 0.4Tremper Albinos (No names yet), Lookin for a good male breeder
BEARDIES 1.0.0
Snow and Yellow (Fred)

Glad to see that some of you understand what I'm trying to get at here... I hate trying to make a point in writing, we need to get some conference calls set up, lol!
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-Ross Payan - www.LeosAnonymous.com

Leos Anonymous

Ball Pythons, Red Striped Leos, W.Hognose and Screaming AFT's

"The posts were also made with a "know it all" attitude, which didn't help matters."

"This forum has always been one of the friendliest on Kingsnake... I really hope all this pointless arguing will stop soon."

....Yea, ok Ross...

....and calling someone a 'know it all' will help stop the arguing? Sure...

M.N

You are just starting more trouble than it is worth. We dont care what you and Kevin think anymore. Its tiring to get on the forum and see all this crap over and over again. When I first got on her a year or so ago everyone was cool adn willing to help people with any situation. Now people are not saying anything because why... Cuz if we do we get called a "Know it all". Why should we help you or kevin when we get yelled at or told we dont know crap. Think about it. You both are stepping on peoples toes. Just calm down and breath. If neither of you want to pay high prices then dont. Its your call, but dont you dare try to make people look dumb for paying for a great healthy animal. Because after you do it just makes you look like the ignorant one.

But once again.

THATS JUST MY OPINON
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2 male leos: Winky HY & Lenny TangCT & 6 Female Leos: Sunshine Super tang,Starburst, & Daisy Super tang carrot tail, Serenity Tremper HY Jungle Albino, Skittle Hypo-Golden, and Banana Patternless.

My post refers to the whole group of 2-3 posts that were made that day... not just yours.

The "know it all" comment was not specifically targeted at anyone. But think about it... how can one interpret the posts in any other way? These posts were made by people whom obviously don't deal with morphs, so therefore they have no foundation of knowledge to base these strong opinions. Everyone is entitled to have opinions, but if you want people to consider them legitimate, there should be some kind of fact/personal experience to back them up.

Your post was the least antagonistic of the bunch, but I still don't understand why you posted it to begin with.

Honestly, what was the point?

Before you get all upset again, take a minute and really look at what you posted from both sides.
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-Ross Payan - www.LeosAnonymous.com

Leos Anonymous

Ball Pythons, Red Striped Leos, W.Hognose and Screaming AFT's

"as far as I can tell the only one's bashing anyone for their opinions are the "morph haters"."

sorry, but thats the stupidest comment i have ever heard. I am by no means a 'morph hater', and am not 'bashing anyone' for their opinions! Read the post again (CAREFULLY this time). How many times did i say im NOT aiming this post at anyone? How many? Lets count...

1)" Im not aiming this post at any breeders out there, and am not blaming anyone."

2)"Again, dont think of me as trying to start an argument in any way."

3)"Also, im not blaming only leos with the morphs/phases, prices, etc, because there are others out there."

4)"I hope to hear some of your opinions on this, and again dont take this as an attack."

...plus the others after the replies..

....now lets hear your proof with the "bashing at people with their opinions"

...you cant? Well.....

....your trying to make it sound like i have no clue what im talking about. I shouldnt repeat my point. If you actually took the time to THINK about what i meant, and READ the posts, than you wouldnt be asking this question.

If your too lazy to, than i will repeat my point...

"I just asked what you all think about $2000 leos, and where this is all going." "IMO, iwouldnt try to create new morphs, but instead, try and preserve our natural ones." I dont want Leos to become like corn snakes and others with the (IMO) BS morphs they have.

Some people have responded to my post, and stayed on topic. Thanks to all who did. Stop trying to start NEW posts and topics, because that will start the bashing all over again.

"Before you get all upset again"

Again, I dare you to go and find a post where i was upset, or mad at someone 'again'.

"These posts were made by people whom obviously don't deal with morphs, so therefore they have no foundation of knowledge to base these strong opinions. Everyone is entitled to have opinions, but if you want people to consider them legitimate, there should be some kind of fact/personal experience to back them up."

Before you go off juding everyone, yes, i do have experience. I dont have proof, or 'pics', but i can assure you, im not a 'beginner' as some people think.
Yea, im young, and dont drive, or pay rent, but that has nothing to do with the point. I can bet anyone here, that if i havent typed 'Im 15 BTW', i would get a whole different view of respect and experience facing me.

As for jag, i could careless what you think too. Your wanting to start an argument for no good reason. Stop trying to pick fights, because this is not the place to...

Im sick of this now. This is stupid. I started one post, and it kept on going and going with unrelated topics, and cussing. If you dont have a responce to my original topic, than dont post it. I asked a simple question, and it ends with people saying "im a morph hater. stop bashing people. we dont care what you think anymore."

This is senseless, and has no point in continuing. STOP CONTINUING WITH NEW UNRELATED POSTS AND GET ON WITH YOUR LIVES. THIS IS OVER.

M.N

Before you start getting your undies in a bunch for the second time, my post was primarily aimed at "alebron", try reading these quotes:

"My post refers to the whole group of 2-3 posts that were made that day... not just yours."

"Your post was the least antagonistic of the bunch, but I still don't understand why you posted it to begin with."

My post was primarily aimed at "alebron"

So let me say it one more time before your undies really get in a twist... None of these comments were aimed specifically at your post, they were targeted at the whole bunch of them.

All that being said, what was the reason you made your post?

You need to stop and think before you go off on another tyraid, take a deep breath and relax. You made many "attacks" in your post about how we are ruining the reptile community with our expensive morphs and businesses, but I'm not going to take the take to copy and paste a large multitude of your quotes. Take a step back and think about it from both viewpoints.

And just for the record... I have NO problem with young people in this hobby. And I DO like normals, LOL!

Take care.
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-Ross Payan - www.LeosAnonymous.com

Leos Anonymous

Ball Pythons, Red Striped Leos, W.Hognose and Screaming AFT's

And just for the record... I have NO problem with young people in this hobby. -Ross Payan

So true! He helped me out alot!

greetz,
David Jones

My favorite quote:
"And I really don't understand why those posters complain about pricing... The price structure of every market is based upon supply and demand; prices will "self correct". No one is twisting anyone's arm to buy into morphs at any given price... if demand falls so will pricing. "

I wanted to get that out into words myself, but don't think I could've, so I'm really glad you said all that. I feel like strangling when people don't understand that demand makes the market. If a price is too high, it's the seller who will lose out when no one buys. If someone buys it, it's not the price that's too high.
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Got hips like Cinderella / Must be having a good shame / Talking sweet about nothing / Cookie I think you're Tame

I was starting to think I might have come across in the wrong way... writing lengthy responses is not my forte, but I'm glad to see you understood what I was trying to get at.

Thanks for the comments.
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-Ross Payan - www.LeosAnonymous.com

Leos Anonymous

Ball Pythons, Red Striped Leos, W.Hognose and Screaming AFT's

Dont worry Ross, you came across fine and in no way did you sound like you were attacking anyone.
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Josh
My Email

"I feel like strangling when people don't understand that demand makes the market. If a price is too high, it's the seller who will lose out when no one buys. If someone buys it, it's not the price that's too high."

I couldn't have said it any better. Some people don't seem to realize that the market is a self regulating evironment and that the only way prices get, and stay, high is because there IS a great enough demand for exotic morphs. Also there's nothing wrong with peoples desire to have unique and intriguing looking pets. Is it terrible the way dogs come in all shapes and sizes? I think not. So what, other than peoples inability to pay for high priced exotics and their subsequent indignation towards those who breed/own them, makes exotic morphs bad?

Thank You Kev.

When i re-read your post, i seen you also made some very good points. I appreciate the time you took to write that...

M.N