Reptile & Amphibian Forums

nice working dobe. not a show dobe but one that will do some pp or sch type of stuff. thanks

I'm sure there's a National Club website thath as a breeder referral. In my humble opinion, even though you are not intending to do the conformation showing with your dog, form does follow function and breeders that are breeding ot the correct standard have dogs in all litters that won't be perfect show dogs.
-----
Chelle and the rest of the crew including, but not limited to Kita and Taiko (the shiba inu wrestle maniacs), Adi (reserved and dignified tabby cat), and all 28 reptiles

well I was out working my "show Dobermans" on the PP field today and watched 3 other show Dobermans work - 3 of the 5 are breed Champions. So I can say with pretty good authority that a show quality Doberman with good temperament can work. My two have never worked before and are learning how to at age 2 and almost 5. They are doing fine

That said, if you are really looking for a sport Doberman, there are some excellent breeders who are out there titling their dogs and also care about good structure too. There are even more breeders breeding a "Euro Doberman" that would not know a working dog if it bit them in the hiney.

Start with the DPCA website www.dpca.org there is also another club United Doberman Club that is more geared towards the working Doberman - be careful who you chose. Don't be impressed by slick websites.

Here is a forum for the UDC:
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/UDCmember/?yguid=75514102

i didnt mean that show dobes didnt work. sorry if it came out wrong. what i meant was that most show dobes are rather tall. im looking for something a little smaller more compact dobe. seen a couple at the place that i train my AB'S that were not as tall as most "show" dobes. both are still kinda young i think around 6-7months or around there but were very serious when it came to working ability, i believe they were both from the same litter out of some czech dogs i believe. yes form does follow function but most people dont really care if it has the ability to work as long as its pretty. id much rather have a dog that was not much to look at but very seriuos about his job over a dog that looks pretty and has no desire to do what it was meant to do. again nothing against people that show dogs just think it takes away from what they were originaly bred to do. got any pics of ur dobes id very much like to take a look at them.

also were would u go to get a doberman? and any recommendation on any kennels that are geared towards the working dog

thanks for all your help

"yes form does follow function but most people dont really care if it has the ability to work as long as its pretty. id much rather have a dog that was not much to look at but very seriuos about his job over a dog that looks pretty and has no desire to do what it was meant to do."

How is your view better or different from those that only consider looks?

You know, when someone develops a breed, they generally aim for a look as well as a function. Not just one or the other ...

i guess its not much different. a dog can still be physically sound even if his looks arent perfect. i was just try to get a point across. im guess what im getting at is. back in the day they didnt really care if a dogs ears werent perfect or if his muzzle was a lil longer or shorter than it was suppose to be so to speak. or if the dog was 23in instead of 25in tall. that is not what a doberman was bred to be. he was bred to protect his owner regardless if he was 10lbs lighter or heavier than the standard. dont get me wrong id very much like to have the total package looks and temp. but those dogs are few and far between.

k here a scenario, if u were getting held up at gun point would u rather have a dog u know will do his job even tho he isnt the prettiest dobe 'his left ear didnt stand correctly and he is 2in shorter than the standard, or would u rather have a dog that is pretty 'perfect structure ears stand evenly ect' but lacks the instict to do what he was bred to do cuz he was bred to look pretty.
like i said i have nothing against showing dogs i just think in working breeds they should be bred to perform "this would include being health tested in all forms" before being bred for looks.

I am so glad I'm finally seeing someone with a similar opinion! Thank you!!!

Everyone hopes for the "total package". That purple ribbon or red/white/blue rossette or those all mighty letters "CH" don't necessarily mean that dog should be used for breeding. I've researched a few top notch names, and learned of many dogs in the pedigrees passing at 3 and 5 due to issues that could very well be hereditary (although not all yet clinically determined).

Falling within perfect standard all around is "nice", but when one can say their dog is not: vWD Affected, is: Cardio normal, thyroid normal, Cerf normal, and has a wonderful temperament, to me that's awesome! Regardless of venue or sport, yes I feel all dobes should be involved in some for of sporting event (whether it be Confirmation, Sch, Agility, flyball, S&R). They are a working breed and truly need a job.

ya i agree with that about 99% except i dont see conformation as a working venue. granted i do think its better than nothing but still should be involved in some sort of WORK.

I do feel that Confirmation is important. Showing that lines are producing quality "standard" should be important, but they are only looking at the outside. That's where I have a problems with Confirmation. A dog can be vWD Affected, come from a long line of cardio and that doesn't matter to them.

Our parent club (DPCA) pushes the issue of doing health testing and breeding for the betterment of the breed. In my years of research the # of vWD Affected "Champions" is quite large. Champions that have dropped dead at the age of 3 & 5 (for reasons not listed ???) makes one wonder.

I just feel that if health testing (minimal status of vWD Carrier, Cardio Normal & OFA Fair) were required before being considered for a Championship, we wouldn't have 1/2 the problem with the disorders that afflict our breed. It should play a role somewhere in the standard!

what is vWD just curious im not to familiar with dobe deseases. although my family has had them ever since i can remember, except for the last 2 yrs cuz my mom just breaks out in tears if she even sees pictures of dobes when im looking on the comp. not working dogs and were never bred just pet dobes. and i love the breed to death. nothing like a dobe being at ur side at all times. like velcro. i do believe that none of our dobes lived past 7-8 yrs. one we had to pts cuz she just laid around and licked her left paw for hours on end. we tried everything imaginable to help her but nothing helped any. i totally agree with u on the stance that to be a champion in the show ring u should have to have all health tests done. i also think they should have some sort of working titles also to be a champion in the ring.

i also think a champion is only as good as the person who gave him that champion status. alot of time these judges have never been around certain breeds enough to distiquish if its a good dog or not there just going on what they think looks good. to me thats just not enough. thats one reason i have american bulldogs now is that its not really based on looks. is more about health temp/working ability and then its just a plus if the dog looks good to. plus with such a huge variation in the breed its not hard to find a good outcross to help a certain line. and the judges are people who have been in ab's for years and years. people that helped create the breed and so forth, and that are more concerned with health and temp then what they think it should look like. granted some of these BULLY DOGS are a joke but its easily found out who is doing the right things to help the breed in the long run.

vWd (VON WILLEBRAND'S DISEASE) - is an autosomally (not sex linked) inherited bleeding disorder with a prolonged bleeding time and a mild to severe factor IX deficiency. When dogs are tested through the Elisa assay blood test for vWD, they are tested for carrier status only NOT the disease. It is believed that carrier status tests (Elisa assay) are inaccurate if a dog is ill, received any medication or vaccination within 14 days of testing, pregnancy, bitches in heat or lactation. Stress conditions (infections, parasites, hormonal changes, trauma, surgery, emotional upset, etc.) may have an effect on the outcome of the vWD blood test and might be a contributing factor for bleeding tendencies. vWD carrier status is quite common in Dobermans. A DNA test for vWD is now available - genetically: clear, carrier (inherited one disease gene), affected (inherited two disease genes) - results are not effected by stress conditions, etc. DNA does not change.
www.VetGen.com can explain it alot better and more in depth.

A very important status to know if you intend to breed. The goal is to breed away from vWD Affected. If breeders bred for the betterment of the breed, there wouldn't be as many AFFECTED dobes out there. MANY MANY "Champions" are vWD Affected (again, something that can't be seen from the outside), but because they have that pretty purple or red/white/blue rossette they must think it's ok to use them in a breeding program.

wow sounds like a terrible disease. i dont actually plan on getting a dobe for a couple yrs and i may or may not breed it all depends on if the dog i get is up to my standard and will be health tested and titled in working venues before i ever consider breeding anything. but i figured id start the research now. i believe in researching and getting to know all the little things like lines and diseases and all that jazz before actually getting a dog. cuz thats were people tend to make there mistakes. "oh i want a dog, im just gonna go out and get a dog today" is something ive had to learn the hard way. having been threw 2 abs that died before a year old and another that has hd has taught me to look into things a little more to be sure of what im getting. cant be to careful these days with all the crap thats being sold. pretty ribbons mean nothing to me. im not into dogs for pimpin them out cuz i can make a few bucks. every breeding should have a purpose in bettering the breed and having plans ahead of time on what ur going to use and or do in the future to better ur dogs. lets be honest theres no such thing as a perfect dog but one can try to produce one with hard work and dedication. if u cant see any faults in ur dogs then you shouldnt be breeding dogs period in my book. thanks for the info pandbear sounds very similair to NCL in american bulldogs except its a genetic nuerological disease that affects the brain and rear legs mainly.

vWD can be ugly if breeders aren't testing to help make an educated / clinical decision. If the proper DNA testing that is available is used, it helps chose which dogs can be bred together without producing AFFECTED pups. As with any testing, it is a very important tool. vWD is a disorder that can be bred out of a line. Of course, it will take time, but educated, selective breeding can significantly reduce and possibly eliminate it (over time).

Of course, there are more evil problems that can affect Dobermans. DCM (Dilated Cardiomyopathy).

Those that do not test have no idea how detrimental it is to the breed as a whole!

A few good research tools if you are researching the Doberman as a potential addition:
www.dpca.org
www.dobequest.org (great for researching American pedigrees)
http://www.dobermannreview.co.yu/default.php (great for research European lines)

Honorably owned by dobermans, 24 yrs!

got any pics of ur guys pandbear? i would really love to see them.
and again thanks for all the info

I have a few albums on line you're more than welcome to browse through.

http://commmunity.webshots.com/user/pjspanda

awesome group u have there. that laughing dobe pics is just priceless lol. so do u breed ? or u just have a big fam

In 24 years with the breed, yes, we have produced 3 litters. There is so much involved in producing a quality litter, we don't do it very often. Trying to find the right pair that will compliment one another medically, physically and mentally is alot harder than alot of these people think.

Knowing what faults your dog has and finding a mate that will hopefully correct that isn't easy. "Kennel blindness" (seeing your own dogs free of faults all together) is one of the worse problems with kennels or breeders that have 8-10-12 dogs.

In the very first album in my webshots, the dog Zeus, he just turned 13 in July and to see him, you'd never guess he was such a Sr.

again a bunch of good lookin doggys u have. ya its hard to believe that people think there dog is perfect. either that or they just dont care cuz there in it for the $$$$. do u work any of your guys? and if u breed a litter any time soon let me know id be interested. u sound like a person that is doin right by the dogs not the other way around like most.

My 5 1/2 yr old female used to do agility. Naturally the larger Border Collies always had quicker times. Then Dolly had a scary slip on the dog walk, she didn't get hurt, but ever since, she will not even go near it. Hoping to get to do more with her on jumps or jumps and weaves (no contact obstacles).

My husband has always wanted to get involved in Schutzhund, and just until recently we couldn't find a trainer ANYWHERE near our area, so we are looking into that. I would like to take my little red female to this trainer had have him evalute her to see if she might be a potential candidate for Sch work.

I have been checking into a few different venues such as UKC & IABCA (International All Breed Canine Association where National and International titles) where things aren't so darn political. Don't get me wrong, I attend any AKC show I can make it to, but it's just so uptight and handlers and/or breeders will not give you the time of day! At UKC and IABCA shows, everyone is there to help one another, dress is casual, and the atmosphere is just so much more relaxed.

if you leave a message on my webshots, it should leave your email address

Pam

"if u were getting held up at gun point would u rather have a dog u know will do his job even tho he isnt the prettiest dobe 'his left ear didnt stand correctly and he is 2in shorter than the standard, or would u rather have a dog that is pretty 'perfect structure ears stand evenly ect' but lacks the instict to do what he was bred to do cuz he was bred to look pretty."

First of all, just because a dog was bred to "look pretty" doesn't mean it can't do its job.

Second of all, I have been in a situation similar to the one you just described. I walked in while my home was being robbed. The robbers were upstairs. When I realized what was going on, I was able to get to 2 of my dogs and let them out of their crates. When the robbers realized I was downstairs, they tried to come down to where I was only to be met by 2 "pretty" Dobermans "doing their job." They drove the robbers back up the stairs and forced them to jump off an upstairs balcony to escape.

Despite all of this, I don't live my life in fear always worrying about whether my dogs can protect me or not. If anything, I worry about protecting them if anything were to happen. In the situation you describe, being held at gunpoint, do you think that dogs are impervious to guns??? It's stupid to think that dogs are going to protect us from gun toting criminals.

im not saying some cant im just saying that most dogs bred for show dont have the drive to do what they were made for. and im very glad ur guys did what they were supposed to and probably saved u from being beatin or god knows what else. did they engage the back guys or just bark. do u think they would have engaged if for some reason the backguys did get u. i dont want to have to hope my dog will engage i want to know 150% that if im in trouble hes on it like white on rice. if theyd have engaged and detained the perps till the authorities got there they might be off the street and in jail instead of probably still robbing and whatnot. again im glad that u didnt get hurt.

no dogs arent imperveous to guns or knives or whatever weapon. but it will distract the person carrying the weapon if hes getting chewed on, and give the handler time to get away.

the reason im requesting this type of dog is that 50% of the people on my street have been brokin into while home and zip tied there hands and feet together and then proceeded to get beatin. id very much not like to be put in that situation.

I think that if I had to worry about breakins and beatings, I'd be looking for a new neighborhood instead of a dog. Besides don't you have 2 pit bulls?

I know plenty of beautiful show Dobermans doing protection work - I went to some Personal protection training last week and 3 of the 5 Dobermans there were breed Champions.

I will say that if your neighborhood is really that bad that no reputable breeder would want one of their puppies going there.

With all due respect, I think you have a bit of a problem with assumptions. You assume that show Dobermans can't protect just as you assumed my robbers got away. That was temporary - I managed to get their license plate number and they were captured.

There was barking, yes, and as I said, the dogs drove the robbers up the stairs. Isn't that engaging to a certain extent? They could have backed up and let them come on down. That didn't happen.

again im not sayin all show dobes arent capable but as a whole theres way less that wont than that will. and no i dont have any pitbulls. i have hybrid american bulldogs. big differance. pitbulls are probably the #1 dog that gets stolen cuz there to people friendly. one has hd and is pp trained but just doesnt move very fast and the other is only a pup at 6.5 months and is also in the process of being trained in pp. i would move if i didnt have to take care of my mother who has a disease which is causing her spine to deteriorate at a rapid rate. and she refuses to move. so here i am.

sorry for assuming that the perps got away. ya i guess it is to an extent. the perps here are on foot so if they dont get stopped by dogs or people they just run away. not hard get away from the cops around here lots of orchards and lots a corn/oat fields. trust me when i was in highschool would have to run from them every weekend. not for anything serious but just partying and whatnot. waiting for the cops to come is not really an option they take like an hour or more to get here.

im not saying people shouldnt show, but they should be breeding working ability and health above all imo which doesnt really mean much but to me thats how it should be.

you presume to know what show breeders are doing, but you really have no idea. You are just using this forum to bad mouth the people who dedicate their life to preserving a breed - what I see is ignorence talking.

I don't understand why you need yet a 3rd dog to protect you. Your 6 month old puppy is not too young to start training. Find a good trainer - not one who abuses dogs to make them mean because that is NOT a good trainer - and start working with him. I will also say that breeders who are truly in it for the breed whether that be a show breeder or a working dog breeder are very picky about where their puppies go.

So if I were you, I'd be working on getting a better place in a better area and use those verbal skills of yours to convince your mother that it is in her best interest to move.

im not tryin to bad mouth anyone. i was just asking for a specific type of dog and got reamed for it so i reamed back. my pup is being trained by a very good trainer. not someone who abuses dogs to make them mean i would never ever do something like that. the reason im looking for a dobe is my mom loves the breed, shes refuses to let my dogs in the house with her cuz "there pitbull" which is not true and they are both 10 times more obediant than any dog i know of. so unless some one comes in the back yard there absolutly useless in this matter. there not dog aggresive like abs myne arent but u never know with bully breeds. so her 2 yorkies would be fine in the house aswell

You may want to look at European bloodlines, or even a doberman directly from Germany if you want both looks and work ability. A "show dog" in Germany must prove itself in both conformation and Schutzhund to earn a title. Excellent quality dogs also sell for half, or less, there than here. Even once it's been imported you're saving money and you can find excellent quality.