Reptile & Amphibian Forums

In the bookstore, I found a Peterson Field Guide for reptiles and amphibians of eastern and central North America. It's an awesome book with beautiful, full bodied plates of each subspecies and detailed paragraphs on each as well.

However, I had difficulty finding its western counterpart. Finally, I decided to order it off the net from Amazon and it arrived today. I was so excited!

It's such a letdown. It has one incomplete plate (picture) of each main species, with nothing of the many and varied subspecies. It doesn't even show the whole body of the snake it does offer! And when you read the information given on each species, they offer only a list of subspecies with maybe one or two lines offering vague indications of what makes that subspecies different. This book will be virtually useless in identifying animals, in my opinion.

Also, I was REALLY looking forward to a book that would give me as detailed a look at P. catenifer as the eastern volume gives me of P. melanoleucus.

Is there a field guide out there that does a better job with the western half of the country's herps??? Please let me know if you know of one.

Thank you...
Judy
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1.0 red cape gopher (Caesar)

to the East in putting together a book that competes with the Field Guide by Conant. I think the Western Peterson Field Guide has covered Amphibians a little better. I agree with you Judy. I have "Snakes of North America, Western Region" by Bartlett and Tennant. I use it a little more when looking up info on the snakes, but I'm at a disadvantage of not having the lizard and/or frogs that are covered in Stebbins Field Guide. One of the best places for info on Western Pituophis is the Pituophis Page on this website. By the way the pictures in the book I have are not representative as the more common snake of that species. For example, it seems they have taken a picture of a pretty pituophis to publish because it's pretty not because it represents the general population of that species or subspecies. So it is somewhat misleading so to speak. IMHO.

Terry Parks

Sorry aboutthe apathy remark, Terry, but I couldn't help you. I think the Eastern one is great, but still a long shot from being VERY useful. I've got about 6 or 7 references I use for the Eastern reptiles sitting on my shelf. The Western one is horrible. I mostly use it to check ranges (which it is just barely OK for) and spellings of names. The plates are horrible. I've got about a dozen or more references that I use to look for meristics, etc. on the western guys. none have good drawings or photos of all, or even most, of the snake species for the western US. Sorry. Some are better than others, but no single one is perfect. Matter of fact, when I've needed more detailed meristics for my little side projects, I've went to the scientific literature for it. No simple answer. Horrible, isn't it. Well, if I ever finish that side project, we'll have something at least to use, won't we?

KJ

and other issues, but we don't mess around trying to find a governor. Hasta Lavista Baby! I use my field guide a lot for the lizards.

Terry Parks

>>Sorry aboutthe apathy remark, Terry, but I couldn't help you. I think the Eastern one is great, but still a long shot from being VERY useful. I've got about 6 or 7 references I use for the Eastern reptiles sitting on my shelf. The Western one is horrible. I mostly use it to check ranges (which it is just barely OK for) and spellings of names. The plates are horrible. I've got about a dozen or more references that I use to look for meristics, etc. on the western guys. none have good drawings or photos of all, or even most, of the snake species for the western US. Sorry. Some are better than others, but no single one is perfect. Matter of fact, when I've needed more detailed meristics for my little side projects, I've went to the scientific literature for it. No simple answer. Horrible, isn't it. Well, if I ever finish that side project, we'll have something at least to use, won't we?
>>
>>KJ

Humph, y'all can't even do THAT right. After years of Uncle Eddie Edwards in Louisiana (and his 20 year old wife Candy), what do you know about it. Heck, we almost voted in David Duke more than once. I think he is still in Russia too scared to come back home to the US or something....lol.

LOL! Ahl Bi Bock.

after California becomes a potential cruise ship stopover point for the rich and famous.

of California went on to become President of this nation. Think about it.

Terry Parks

>>after California becomes a potential cruise ship stopover point for the rich and famous.

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Terry Parks

Well, it's not that scarey of a thought because Arnie is not legally qualified to become President. You have to be born in this country to run for that office.

I believe he could run for the senate, though, if this taste of politics wets his appetite.

Judy
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1.0 red cape gopher (Caesar)

If you are born in another country and your parent is a US citizen then you are a US citizen. Of course, if you want someoone to be President who is a naturalized citizen, there's always the opportunity to amend the Constitution. Women didn't have the right to vote originally. There is an amendment to the Constitution to give all citizens the right to vote. The greatest thing that those orginal authors had the foresight to realize that they can't possibly think of everything and changes will come in the future so they wrote a way to change it if necessary right into the Constitution itself.

Actually, being governor of California means you are the leader of a state that if you put it up against all other countries would rank fifth in the world. I would think being leader of a government that would rank fifth in the world is pretty descent.

Terry Parks

>>Well, it's not that scarey of a thought because Arnie is not legally qualified to become President. You have to be born in this country to run for that office.
>>
>>I believe he could run for the senate, though, if this taste of politics wets his appetite.
>>
>>Judy
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>>1.0 red cape gopher (Caesar)

>>There is an amendment to the Constitution to give all citizens the right to vote.

No there isn't. Many of so-called citizens STILL aren't allowed to vote. Better read that amendment (and it's interpretations) clearly before you start saying untrue facts.

>> The greatest thing that those orginal authors had the foresight to realize that they can't possibly think of everything and changes will come in the future so they wrote a way to change it if necessary right into the Constitution itself.

You are correct, but I feel that the BEST thing that the did was put in the second amendment. You know, the one that protects all of the other ones?

>>Actually, being governor of California means you are the leader of a state that if you put it up against all other countries would rank fifth in the world.

Psh! Yeah, for one that can't survive without bringing in necessary supplies from other states? Texas could be self-supportive. California, if cut off from the rest of the US, would die before they managed to utilize even their own oil reserves well enough to make it by alone. Speaking of which, I've never had much good to say about a state that refuses toi drill their lands for oils, but is happy to import it from other states that do take the risk to drill their own habitat. To top it off, California has the nerve to complain about the cost of their gas ...since it has to be imported. Want cheaper gas? Drill it locally.

> I would think being leader of a government that would rank fifth in the world is pretty descent.

Descent - "an inclination downward." Yeah, being in the California government would be a descent. We agree there....lol!

KJ

>>No there isn't. Many of so-called citizens STILL aren't allowed to vote. Better read that amendment (and it's interpretations) clearly before you start saying untrue facts.

Alright, there are still restrictions. If you've been convicted of certain crimes, you may not be eligible to vote. I failed to put in some clarifying support statements.

>>
>>>> The greatest thing that those orginal authors had the foresight to realize that they can't possibly think of everything and changes will come in the future so they wrote a way to change it if necessary right into the Constitution itself.
>>
>>You are correct, but I feel that the BEST thing that the did was put in the second amendment. You know, the one that protects all of the other ones?
>>
>>>>Actually, being governor of California means you are the leader of a state that if you put it up against all other countries would rank fifth in the world.
>>
>>Psh! Yeah, for one that can't survive without bringing in necessary supplies from other states? Texas could be self-supportive. California, if cut off from the rest of the US, would die before they managed to utilize even their own oil reserves well enough to make it by alone. Speaking of which, I've never had much good to say about a state that refuses toi drill their lands for oils, but is happy to import it from other states that do take the risk to drill their own habitat. To top it off, California has the nerve to complain about the cost of their gas ...since it has to be imported. Want cheaper gas? Drill it locally.

The thing in California is that there is actually a Northern and Southern California with a lot of different views, concerns and goals. Northern California gets their way on some issues and Southern California gets their way on other issues. For the most part both sections agree in their own way on issues. As far as oil wells and supplying our own gas, California did exactly that three or four decades ago. Southern California had oil wells and were drilling over huge supplies of oil off its coast and Bakersfield where I live is drilling and pumping now. There were no less than three oil refineries in Southern California that I know of. The idle refineries and cut back of drilling is the result of environmental lobbying by Northern California which is and has been successful. Things may change or loosen as a result of what we went through with our energy crisis. During the energy crisis refineries and electricity power plants that were shutdown were reopened. The worst thing we did was shutdown the Alaska pipeline. If that oil was flowing to the Southern California refineries that I mentioned earlier, we would be refining and shipping gas ahead of Texas or the rest of the US for that matter. California is certainly capable of standing on its own. The only reason we haven't is because, Yes we let protecting our environment and its resources stand in the way and we go along with Buy American which means we buy alot of goods produced East of us. Quite Frankly, California has a pretty long shorelne that is easily capable of handling ships bringing in goods from the west not the east. Give me a choice and I would surely vacation in Tahiti.

Terry Parks

If California can stand on its own. Go ahead. Just a big embarassment anyway. Actually why don't you take North Dakota and just join up with those Canadians. The governator? Come on, what were you guys thinking. Not that I have much room to talk. I'm in Illinois. Striving for the third century in a row to have the most corrupt state government. lol

Oh, and if you guys do decide to secede...do you mind if the rest of us still come to visit for herpin' trips?
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International Snakes Meetup
International Herpetology Meetup

I definitely wouldn't want to try and stand alone as a nation. I was saying that if you put California up against other nations that it would rank number 5. As far as what were we thinking. I said in an earlier post that the last and only time until now that California voted a movie star in as governor, the nation turned around and voted him in as President of the United States. What were we thinking? We were thinking that we were fed up with the way the state government has handled our state. We voted a governor in a little over a year ago and turned around and voted him out. By the way, other states seem to complain about the people in their government and do nothing. You can vote them out because you voted them in. Obviously we've taken a big risk. We voted out a person with 30 plus years in political service and voted in a person with none. Thanks for the comments and you can herp here anytime, but if you are over 16 years of age you will need a California Fishing License.

Terry Parks

>>If California can stand on its own. Go ahead. Just a big embarassment anyway. Actually why don't you take North Dakota and just join up with those Canadians. The governator? Come on, what were you guys thinking. Not that I have much room to talk. I'm in Illinois. Striving for the third century in a row to have the most corrupt state government. lol
>>
>>Oh, and if you guys do decide to secede...do you mind if the rest of us still come to visit for herpin' trips?
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>> International Snakes Meetup
>> International Herpetology Meetup

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Terry Parks

>>I was saying that if you put California up against other nations that it would rank number 5.

Big words. Tell me now in what way you mean...and then prove that it is meaningful.

>>We voted a governor in a little over a year ago and turned around and voted him out.

Yeah, if he is so bad, why did the state vote him in so recently....lol.

KJ

>>Yeah, if he is so bad, why did the state vote him in so recently....lol.

Unfortunately or fortunately depending on who you wanted, the Republicans were split and the Democrates were able to take advantage of it. There's a lot of other things that were involved so that is not the only thing. Look at the last Presidential election. Gore received the majority vote and Bush won the Presidency. Would you agree that the way our voting and electing people to offices allows a person to gain office, without actually being the most popular? Amazingly, on the last Presidential election, I went to bed with Gore declaring victory after initial results from California's voting indicated he would carry California. He did carry California, but he didn't realize what would happen in Florida. Quite Frankly, part of the Recall being able to succeed was Davis loosing some of his own party supporters and votes. The fact that it's become apparent over the last couple years that California is reliant and not self supporting with goods that it produces or is capable of producing seems to not be acceptable to the people in California. Now remember, these are just my opinions and are only a small part of what and/or why California was able to Recall it's governor.

>>Big words. Tell me now in what way you mean...and then prove that it is meaningful.

The world ranking has to due with Economic ranking. It has to do with the monetary value of what you produce and export and then with how much you must import. Meaning? What it means to me is that if I live in a state that ranks fifth economically and I go through electricity shutdowns and cutbacks and high food prices on food it produces than I'm not happy and unfortunately what can happen is lets get rid of the leader or coach in sports.

It's only words and just my opinions and views and in its own case was just a counter to California being apathetic.

Terry Parks

>>Unfortunately or fortunately depending on who you wanted, the Republicans were split and the Democrates were able to take advantage of it.

Sounds like how Lincoln wow, too.

> Look at the last Presidential election. Gore received the majority vote and Bush won the Presidency.

Bullcrap. That was true with Licoln, but not with Bush. California didn't even count all of their miliatry votes in that election since there weren't enough to allow Bush to win in California. However, assuming that the CA military voted like they have in past elections and like the military did in other states, Bush DID win the popular vote. If California wouldn't have been to lazy (or is it misleading) to count all of their votes, that MYTH wouldn't be stated today.

> Would you agree that the way our voting and electing people to offices allows a person to gain office, without actually being the most popular?

Yes, but isn't that a weakness of being a republic and not a democracy? Are you suggesting treason or a revolutiuon to solve that problem? LOL.

> The fact that it's become apparent over the last couple years that California is reliant and not self supporting with goods that it produces or is capable of producing seems to not be acceptable to the people in California.

Yeah, but I won't hold my breathe on it...lol.

>>The world ranking has to due with Economic ranking. It has to do with the monetary value of what you produce and export and then with how much you must import. Meaning? What it means to me is that if I live in a state that ranks fifth economically and I go through electricity shutdowns and cutbacks and high food prices on food it produces than I'm not happy and

OK, then it sounds like the govenor did OK in his first term. Why blame everything now on him? Every state in the Union is having problems. Is hje to blame for all of that? I believe he was used as an escape goat and wasn't that incomepetant to begin with.

By the way, r4ead your own state constition. I don't think you can recall him just because he is unpopular and loses a couple of supporters. If I remember correctly, he can only be recalled for 4 reasons (but I might be off there). Just losing supporters shouldn't be one of them. Sometimes leaders, like parents, do stuff that doesn't look right for us, but might be best for the government body based on decision we don't know about.

Why do Americans think their opinions are important as people's with more data available to them? Are the the country where every man is equal to every other man and better than most? LMAO.

> unfortunately what can happen is lets get rid of the leader or coach in sports.

I think there is a big difference between an elected high official and a silly little coach, don't you?

>>It's only words and just my opinions and views and in its own case was just a counter to California being apathetic.

I'll agree. Maybe wrong Or maybe not), but not apathetic, right, Terry?

my statement may be bullcrap, but it surely isn't because of the PROBABILITY Bush would have carried the popular vote if California had finished counting. Bottom line is Bush won the Presidency because he carried the minimum electoral votes and Gore goes down as having won the majority of the counted popular votes. The instance that the popular vote is completely counted is when neither candidates receive the miniumum amount of lectoral votes needed to win the Presidentcy. Your statements are based on probability and "assuming the California military had voted like in past elections". If I go with that then we don't need to vote in the future we will just see how we voted in the past.

"Are you suggesting treason or a revolutiuon to solve that problem? LOL."

I am confused that my statements have ever suggested treason or a revolution. Recalling the present governor of California per the State Constitution and putting a governor in office based on popular votes falls short of any treason or revolution levels. The time I can think of something on that level was back in 1861 I believe.

Terry Parks

>>
>>>>It's only words and just my opinions and views and in its own case was just a counter to California being apathetic.
>>
>>I'll agree. Maybe wrong Or maybe not), but not apathetic, right, Terry?

>> Your statements are based on probability and "assuming the California military had voted like in past elections".

Your statements assumed they didn't. Why is it OK for you to make an assumption , but it isn't OK for me to make an assumption (with valid reasons for that assumption)? If every single vote wasn't counted, then we (you are I) can't KNOW anything - unless the uncounted votes are less than that which the winner is ahead of the loser (which it wasn't by a long shot). You started it by making an assumption that he lose the popular vote just because the media reported it that way.... with as few facts as they had to say that Gore won Florida. Sorry, but that is one of my pet peeves. What you said is thrown around as a fact by our useless, biased, media when it is a anything but a proven fact.

Next you'll tell me OJ really was innocent! Haahaa.

> If I go with that then we don't need to vote in the future we will just see how we voted in the past.

Badly? I'll go with that. Too bad our system doesn't work as well as the one on Starship Troopers by Robert A. Heinlein, huh?

> The time I can think of something on that level was back in 1861 I believe.

Humph. What about 28 July 1932? I think a revolution was just barely missed then, too. That was very shameful of our government.

By the way, do you mean 24 October 1861? That actually is a dark day in ou nation's history. I will agree to that.

KJ

"we don't need to vote in the future we will just see how we voted in the past."

Very good point!

Also, let me just clarify me stance on this. I think it is really cool that you recalled your governor. This sort of thing needs to happen more often if only just to show these guys who's in charge. What I was scoffing at was the fact that you elected The Terminator.
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International Snakes Meetup
International Herpetology Meetup

>>Also, let me just clarify me stance on this. I think it is >>really cool that you recalled your governor. This sort of >>thing needs to happen more often if only just to show these >>guys who's in charge. What I was scoffing at was the fact that >>you elected The Terminator.

I also think it was amazing that we would vote in The Terminator. We recalled a person with 30 plus years political experience and voted in one with none. It does indicate how frustrated California is. California wanted to make a point. If California would rather vote in The Terminator as opposed to any person with political experinece, then you're pretty disgusted with politicians. I was trying to be funny about relating how we voted in a movie star before and the nation turned around and voted him in as President. I guess it wasn't funny.

Terry Parks

"However, assuming that the CA military voted like they have in past elections and like the military did in other states, Bush DID win the popular vote. If California wouldn't have been to lazy (or is it misleading) to count all of their votes, that MYTH wouldn't be stated today."

Let me just highlight the words "assuming" and "myth" in this statement. Regardless of what happened in CA, something very fishy happened in Florida and if it hadn't Gore would be President. In which case, 1.) The WTC probabbly wouldn't have been attacked. 2.)The UN would still count 3.)Americans wouldn't be living in fear and willing to throw away our rights to feel safe.

Doesn't it just seem strange that after such a corrupt election. The guy we elect throws away over fifty years of good-will and foreign policy, turns America into a nationalistic war-like nation, and makes the UN not a factor anymore. The world has changed BIG time in the past three years and I don't know if we can ever fix it. Even if we can figure out a way to get Clinton back in office. Better yet, let's make him king. Now there was a guy who understood foreign policy. If someone messes with us, QUIETLY bomb the living crap out of them. Instead of Bush and Chaney's media crusade. Everytime I say that I am for peace, some tells me I'm un-American. What a great leader. He's got everybody thinking that in order to be a patriot, you have to like to kill brown people.

On a side-note. This war has caused the price of ply-wood in my area to triple. So, in effect, Bush is keeping me from building another snake rack. And that's just mean!

"Sometimes leaders, like parents, do stuff that doesn't look right for us, but might be best for the government body based on decision we don't know about."

Please. Go get a dictionary and look something up for me: FASCISM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Wait never mind...you just defined it! lol

"Why do Americans think their opinions are important as people's with more data available to them? "

Because our opinions are all equally important no matter how stupid we are. That's the point. Jeez, what century are you in? Mind if I start calling you Mussolini. Ever read Animal Farm? lol Just kidding.
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International Snakes Meetup
International Herpetology Meetup

>>3.)Americans wouldn't be living in fear and willing to throw away our rights to feel safe.

Nah, Americans were becoming weenies before Bush became elected. As Americans, we've forgotten that you can have peace or freedom, but not both at once. We've forgotten the life or liberty mentality. We've forgotten the faces of our forefathers of this country!

I've asked this before, who are the heirs to Patrick Henry? I don't see many around me.

"We've forgotten the faces of our forefathers of this country!"

Yeah, I caught that, Roland. Another Dark Tower Junkie, eh? Maybe not.
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International Snakes Meetup
International Herpetology Meetup

"you will need a California Fishing License."

Just for taking pictures?
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International Snakes Meetup
International Herpetology Meetup

that CA keeps electing these type of people to political offices. While following this thread I was also reading some stats where States have just recently been ranked smartest to dumbest. Below is the list of the bottom half.

And on the bottom half of the list are:
26. New Hampshire
27. Illinois
28. Missouri
29. West Virginia
30. Idaho
31. South Dakota
32. Oregon
33. Washington
34. Texas
35. Colorado
36. Georgia
37. Kentucky
38. Arkansas
39. Oklahoma
40. Florida
41. South Carolina
42. Tennessee
43. Hawaii
44. California
45. Arizona
46. Alabama
47. Louisiana
48. Mississippi
49. Nevada
50. New Mexico

After browsing this list several thoughts I have had about many issues through many years suddenly made sense

Rich Hebron

>>47. Louisiana
>>48. Mississippi

As long as us cajuns are smarter than them stump-jumpoers, the world is OK!

"If you are born in another country and your parent is a US citizen then you are a US citizen. Of course, if you want someoone to be President who is a naturalized citizen, there's always the opportunity to amend the Constitution."

Ah yes...thanks for correcting my over-generalization. And yeah...the constitution could be ammended to allow for a naturalized citizen, I suppose (I'm hardly an expert on constitutional law)...but said citizen would have to already have a tremendous amount of power and popularity to push such a thing through. I don't see it happening in my lifetime.

To keep things on topic for the forum......Have you or Del gotten any of those pit papers/articles in the mail yet? I'm anxious for new stuff to study!

Judy
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1.0 red cape gopher (Caesar)

>>of California went on to become President of this nation. Think about it"

Ha! And then he went on to sink this country and most of the world into one of the worst economic recessions in our nation's history. He also took a big part in making sure the entire world hates us. Tried real hard to have a nuclear war with the USSR, too. Let's see what else. Oh, how could I forget...he also trained and funded a little known "freedom-fighter" named Osama bin-laden. Later we found out he had a crippling mental disorder while in office. Thanks, but you guys can keep your "politicians". lol
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International Snakes Meetup
International Herpetology Meetup

the bottom fell out of the Eurpean and Asian market and value. The world started their recession ahead of the one we experienced. There's always a risk when you help someone that they turn against you later. Of course we should mention why Bin-Laden was supported. All he did at the time was drive the USSR back out of Afghanistan which allowed us to stay out of Afghanistan and ease the nuclear tension. The nuclear tension started because the USSR was moving around in other countries and the President was confronting it. The problem with Bin-Laden was the following presidents did not keep their eye on a dangerous person. It's common for enemies to become allies temprorarily for a common goal. Even if it's for different reasons.

Terry Parks

>>>>of California went on to become President of this nation. Think about it"
>>
>>Ha! And then he went on to sink this country and most of the world into one of the worst economic recessions in our nation's history. He also took a big part in making sure the entire world hates us. Tried real hard to have a nuclear war with the USSR, too. Let's see what else. Oh, how could I forget...he also trained and funded a little known "freedom-fighter" named Osama bin-laden. Later we found out he had a crippling mental disorder while in office. Thanks, but you guys can keep your "politicians". lol
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>> International Snakes Meetup
>> International Herpetology Meetup

Savings and Loan Industry contributed greatly to our recession. Reagan by letting that banking industry do what they wany cost the nation big yet made many extremely wealthy without any huge penalties. Bailing out that industry cost us Billions, hell, the State that needed the largest bailout was Texas (wonder where they rank on that recent list on smarts)go figure.

Now that I think about it, Terry, what you guys need is a Bush running your State, there will be oil wells everywhere and CA could probably stand alone when you guys finally become that long awaited Island many speak of. Your voting counts may get a little screwy but I bet it could work LOL.

did contribute greatly to our recession. I was responding to a comment that Reagan threw the world into a recession. Reagan didn't throw the world into a recession because Asia and Europe were already in a recession. We were trying hard to keep the Asian and European recession from throwing us into a big one. We were in the beginning of a recession when Reagon bailed out the Saivngs and Loan. He didn't have much time to offset the Saivngs and Loan failures with options because we were already wounded by Asia and Eurpes drop in their monetary value. Reagan made an error and I agree with Rich. California did not make Reagan president. I was amazed he carried enough of the nation to win the Presidency.

Bush didn't carry California in the last election by a wide margin. Even when George Bush Sr., his wife and two sons (am I forgetting anyone?) lived in Bakersfield for ahwile when George Bush Sr. was selling drilling equipment and accesories to the Pdetroleum Industry. He left our state to go to Texas and their Petroleum activities. Bush won the Presidency, but didn't carrry California by a wide margin. I'll let Florida and other states carry the burden on that.

Terry Parks

>>Savings and Loan Industry contributed greatly to our recession. Reagan by letting that banking industry do what they wany cost the nation big yet made many extremely wealthy without any huge penalties. Bailing out that industry cost us Billions, hell, the State that needed the largest bailout was Texas (wonder where they rank on that recent list on smarts)go figure.
>>
>>Now that I think about it, Terry, what you guys need is a Bush running your State, there will be oil wells everywhere and CA could probably stand alone when you guys finally become that long awaited Island many speak of. Your voting counts may get a little screwy but I bet it could work LOL.

wasn't the first bank that folded called Snow Bank or something like that based in Colorado that was primarily controlled by one of the Bush clan. Several million in bonuses went out just prior to their folding. Now back in Texas, little did we know how they came up with the name Snow Bank until years later.....hahahaha

linked together. Think of the ones we never can learn about. Oh well, I better go look at the news. California just voted out the governor with 30 plus years political experience and voted in some one that Davis remarked "can't pronounce California".

Terry Parks

>>wasn't the first bank that folded called Snow Bank or something like that based in Colorado that was primarily controlled by one of the Bush clan. Several million in bonuses went out just prior to their folding. Now back in Texas, little did we know how they came up with the name Snow Bank until years later.....hahahaha

"The nuclear tension started because the USSR was moving around in other countries and the President was confronting it."

No. The nuclear tension started because the USSR had nuclear weapons and we don't want people having things that we have.

It's common for enemies to become allies temprorarily for a common goal. Even if it's for different reasons.

You're right but that doesn't make it right. By that logic, it's okay to make a deal with the devil as long as you get something you want. So Reagan should have mentioned to Bush and Clinton "By the way, I gave this crazy Afghan a bunch of weapons and money, make sure he doesn't attack us or else it's your fault" Maybe he forgot. He does have alzeimer's.
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International Snakes Meetup
International Herpetology Meetup

>>No. The nuclear tension started because the USSR had nuclear weapons and we don't want people having things that we have.

Well said. We fear other countries that have weapons, but think it is silly for us to fear them.

Humph, now we fear our own countrymen, or at least it seems that way since we try to prevent them from owning guns. An obscure gun law in the 30's (1934, maybe?) and a following Supreme Court case made it, for all intents and purposes, illegal for private citizens to own sawed off shotguns because they weren't used by the military (a lie) automatics because that WERE used by the military. What the hec is that about. Same law also basically made it illegal to own a silencer for your gun. Well, infringement isn't a new idea for the beginning of a tyranny.

>>You're right but that doesn't make it right. By that logic, it's okay to make a deal with the devil as long as you get something you want. So Reagan should have mentioned to Bush and Clinton "By the way, I gave this crazy Afghan a bunch of weapons and money, make sure he doesn't attack us or else it's your fault" Maybe he forgot. He does have alzeimer's.

Don't mention Clinton/Gore selling stuff to China. Maybe if Gore would have been elected, we'd be dying from nuclear fall-out now.

KJ

"Don't mention Clinton/Gore selling stuff to China. Maybe if Gore would have been elected, we'd be dying from nuclear fall-out now.

KJ"

I would have to agree with ya KJ! I also don't like the fact that Gore was caught lying in the debates before the election process, and then apologized the next day. You would think that he would have learned from Slick Willy.

Take care!
Billy
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Genesis 1:1

>>>>No. The nuclear tension started because the USSR had nuclear weapons and we don't want people having things that we have.
>>
>>Well said. We fear other countries that have weapons, but think it is silly for us to fear them.
>>
>>Humph, now we fear our own countrymen, or at least it seems that way since we try to prevent them from owning guns. An obscure gun law in the 30's (1934, maybe?) and a following Supreme Court case made it, for all intents and purposes, illegal for private citizens to own sawed off shotguns because they weren't used by the military (a lie) automatics because that WERE used by the military. What the hec is that about. Same law also basically made it illegal to own a silencer for your gun. Well, infringement isn't a new idea for the beginning of a tyranny.
>>
>>>>You're right but that doesn't make it right. By that logic, it's okay to make a deal with the devil as long as you get something you want. So Reagan should have mentioned to Bush and Clinton "By the way, I gave this crazy Afghan a bunch of weapons and money, make sure he doesn't attack us or else it's your fault" Maybe he forgot. He does have alzeimer's.
>>
>>Don't mention Clinton/Gore selling stuff to China. Maybe if Gore would have been elected, we'd be dying from nuclear fall-out now.
>>
>>KJ
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International Snakes Meetup
International Herpetology Meetup

>>"The nuclear tension started because the USSR was moving around in other countries and the President was confronting it."
>>
>>No. The nuclear tension started because the USSR had nuclear weapons and we don't want people having things that we have.

If it started because the USSR had nuclear weapons, then it started way before Reagan.

>By that logic, it's okay to make a deal with the devil as long >as you get something you want.

Saying it is common doesn't mean you do it for every situation. Bringing in the Devil is a real life example. Sorry, I can't relate "making a deal with the devil". Could you please give me an example. I'm sure people would make a deal with the devil, but I'm really not sure what the contract looks like. So we should not have been allies with the USSR during World War II? There are plenty of instances to show when it worked out and when it didn't. We can discuss hindsight which the people we talk about didn't have that advantahge.

>So Reagan should have mentioned to Bush and Clinton "By the >way, I gave this crazy Afghan a bunch of weapons and money, >make sure he doesn't attack us or else it's your fault" Maybe >he forgot. He does have alzeimer's.

Bin-Laden is not from Afghan; he is from Saudi Arabia (i believe). He is a billionaire. The USSR moved into Afghanistan for reasons which I'm sure weren't to our advantage. The main priority established at that point (I'm not saying it was the best choice, but it was the choice made) was to get them out. I don't know what all of Reagan's options were, but he picked one which at the time seemed to work. I would find it hard to believe that Bush and Clinton knew nothing about Bin-Laden and what we had supplied. Do you think any other president didn't get the message? Clinton got the message he was just in a side hallway occupied with other priorities that weren't in the best interests of this country.

>>You're right but that doesn't make it right.

I never said it was right. I'm telling what happens and that is what happens.

Terry Parks

"If it started because the USSR had nuclear weapons, then it started way before Reagan."

Yep.

"Bin-Laden is not from Afghan; he is from Saudi Arabia (i believe)."

You're right.

"I would find it hard to believe that Bush and Clinton knew nothing about Bin-Laden..."

I think that also applies to Reagan though, doesn't it"

"Clinton got the message he was just in a side hallway occupied with other priorities that weren't in the best interests of this country."

lol I disagree. I find it to be a good thing to have a sexually active president. Have you ever seen Hilary? He did handle it completely wrong though when he got caught.

"I never said it was right. I'm telling what happens and that is what happens."

Well since we agree on everything...
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International Snakes Meetup
International Herpetology Meetup

Hey KJ!

Speaking of the subject of books, I don't have a clue if there are any good pit books out there. I do have W.P. Mara's book, but I want something more and better. To your knowledge, is there any books solely about pits that can be ordered at nearby bookstores, etc?

Also, since my relatives are all from Indiana, but I was born and raised here mostly in the Dallas area, what would I be referred to as? A hybrid of both northerners and southerners? LOL!

Take care bro!
Billy
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Genesis 1:1

I haven't seen any books that deal solely with the Pituophis family and brings it all together that I would use. I've used the Corn Snake Manual by Bill and Kathy Love as a guide to care and husbandry for Pituophis. I feel it has more and better information than any pituophis books I've seen.

Thinking of apathy; I do believe the last and most widely accepted paper on the taxonomy of Pituophis was done by Robles and Escobar at Berkeley, California!! One of the main things still in the air and has seen some obstacles is the paper aligns sayi with catenifer instead of melanoleucus. But what the heck, if California is writing the paper, then wouldn't they be biased. When we stop posting pics of bullsnakes from New Mexico when its actually a pic of a sonoran gopher snake then you may have a point for sayi being closer to pine snakes.

Who knows, maybe some Californians may help with that infamous gap in our book references that deals solely with the genus Pituophis.

In regards to your purity status Billy. I would consider you a southern integrade, but KJ thinks anyone who is outsdie of Louisiana is a hybrid yankee. LOL

Terry Parks

>>Hey KJ!
>>
>>Speaking of the subject of books, I don't have a clue if there are any good pit books out there. I do have W.P. Mara's book, but I want something more and better. To your knowledge, is there any books solely about pits that can be ordered at nearby bookstores, etc?
>>
>>Also, since my relatives are all from Indiana, but I was born and raised here mostly in the Dallas area, what would I be referred to as? A hybrid of both northerners and southerners? LOL!
>>
>>Take care bro!
>>Billy
>>-----
>>Genesis 1:1

Yeah....we can all say that pits do not have a huge literary place in the world of books.............well....Judy's book will be a start!

Oh yeah Terry....I will be going to the IRBA show in San Diego next weekend with Ginter. You gonna be there? If so, I would love to be able to chat pits with you in person!

Take care!

Billy
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Genesis 1:1

Heyyyy...what am I? Chopped liver???

(Yankee hybrid...that's funny!!!)

I thought that may cover me, but if it doesn't that was not my intent.

Terry Parks

>>Heyyyy...what am I? Chopped liver???
>>
>>Yankee hybrid...that's funny!!!)

Texan first. I hear thats something to be proud of. I though believe a true Texan would never bring up any reference to Yankee blood in their lineage.

Now being a "Damn Yankee" thats something to be proud of in my opinion.

LOL! at Rich!!!!!!

Yeah....I am very proud to be where I am! I am the only one in my family though that was born here in TX. Everyone else, was either Wisconsin ( I think ) and overall Indiana.

Does Indiana have any pits????

Take care!

Billy
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Genesis 1:1

Hello there Billy,
I haven't read this book yet, still working on the monster Elaphe book by Schulz (great book by the way, very higly recommended). But this is the older book "Variations and relationships in the snakes of the genus Pituophis" As i mentioned i haven't read it and it's pretty old, copywright from the Smithsonian Institution is April 23rd, 1940. I'm hoping to read it very soon, once winter is here in full force and i can't be outside working. The author is Olive Griffith Stull and i can help you find a copy if your interested shoot me an e-mail. I think KJ and a few others have the book and should be able to offer more insight as to whether or not it's worth pursuing.
Have a good one,

Gregg F.

>>Hey KJ!
>>
>>Speaking of the subject of books, I don't have a clue if there are any good pit books out there. I do have W.P. Mara's book, but I want something more and better. To your knowledge, is there any books solely about pits that can be ordered at nearby bookstores, etc?
>>
>>Also, since my relatives are all from Indiana, but I was born and raised here mostly in the Dallas area, what would I be referred to as? A hybrid of both northerners and southerners? LOL!
>>
>>Take care bro!
>>Billy
>>-----
>>Genesis 1:1
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Gregg F.

www.greggsrb.com

>>Speaking of the subject of books, I don't have a clue if there are any good pit books out there. I do have W.P. Mara's book, but I want something more and better. To your knowledge, is there any books solely about pits that can be ordered at nearby bookstores, etc?

Not yet.

>>Also, since my relatives are all from Indiana, but I was born and raised here mostly in the Dallas area, what would I be referred to as? A hybrid of both northerners and southerners?

Carpetbagger. Don't feel bad, Shannon Hiatt is one, too, but I like him a lot. (Remember why they were called that?)

KJ

P.S.> Know this fifference between a Yankee and a Darn Yankee? A Yankee comes down, spends his money, and leaves. A darn Yankee comes down, spends his money, and stays!

!
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Genesis 1:1

LOL! Perhaps I'll swing by for a visit someday. Maybe I'll become your new neighbor.

Don't worry, us Yanks would still welcome a hybrid like yourself with open arms, lol.

Thanks, Terry. I'll look for that book to add to my growing collection.

I've already copied all the info off our local Pituophis page here. It's come in very handy as I continue to collect my notes.

Judy
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1.0 red cape gopher (Caesar)

That's why I've been slow to actually contact a publisher about my project. I supplied meristics on many of the write-ups others have done, so it would almost look close to plagarism - when it was my own research in the first place...lol. I've probably got the most extensive list of meristics on my PC for the genus Pituophis (from lots of published sources dating back MANY decades), but I've been reluctant to do anything with it. I still am. I've been playing with writing a good manuscript on the genus for years - since everything else out there has been weritten by novies or at least people with very litle real Pituophis experience - but I've never tried to actually talk to a publisher about it.

The Evil Incarnate and I have even thought about making it a free downloadable document, but text alone would make it a 40-50 page document (when finished) not counting images, etc. I don't know if that is feasible, either. If it doesn't get published, I will probably just make it a free document for Pituophis fans tro download.

KJ

a good pituophis reference guide. A book on the subject would probably sell fairly well about this time since herps are so popular and we are so lacking in the area. Most other herps get pretty good coverage. As herpers constantly need change to satisfy this addiction of sorts interst in pituophis would probably increase since not many as yet mantain them as they do other types in their collections.

Rich Hebron

OH KJ.....with photos, credits, index, intro and large type you could probably get 500 pages out of what you have. Would be quite a book, quite a book!!!! Get busy ....LOL

>>a good pituophis reference guide. A book on the subject would probably sell fairly well about this time since herps are so popular and we are so lacking in the area. Most other herps get pretty good coverage. As herpers constantly need change to satisfy this addiction of sorts interst in pituophis would probably increase since not many as yet mantain them as they do other types in their collections.
>>
>>Rich Hebron
>>
>>OH KJ.....with photos, credits, index, intro and large type you could probably get 500 pages out of what you have. Would be quite a book, quite a book!!!! Get busy ....LOL