Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Posted for and with permission of Clark Gable.
I agree and it bothers me too Lori. The Pharaoh Hound Standard is the standard to breed by and to judge by.True, all of your observations would not interfere with the job the Pharaoh Hound was bred to do.However,if this discernable trend of ewe necks,bulging fronts,too long in body and the size of the Pharaoh Hound today has also become an issue. Also, FLECKING (WHICH IS "UNDESIREABLE" IN THE PHARAOH HOUND STANDARD IN THIS COUNTRY)and this is what we are seeing in the ring and dogs going BIS. Breed type and the integrity of the Pharaoh Hound is in jeopardy....as it very well may be by what you and I are observing. To reward a dog with such high honors in the ring is to state: "This is breeding stock". I think that many of our judges need refresher courses and to re-READ the Pharaoh Hound Standard in this country. Our Pharaoh's are looking more and more like Doberman's....they are NOT!
Clark Gable, Khantro Pharaoh Hounds,Home of CH Beltara's Khantro,foundation stock dog/ Handler of many Pharaoh Hounds
email: Khantro1@embarqmail.com Phone: 1-352-236-2094

Linda, I've known Clark many years now and have had multiple discussions on the breed along with other breeds such as the Doberman Pinscher.

Clark is a knowledgeable dog person. He also trained and showed Doberman Pinscher many, many years ago for Judy and Pat Donier, who were big Doberman breeders and Judy also judged our 1998 Pharaoh Hound Club of America's National Specialty in Dallas, TX.

Some of the points he mentioned to me was not only the over sized dogs in the ring, mostly males, but the long body and over angulated rears seen in photos and ads.

From the standard: Body - "Lithe with almost straight topline. Slight slope from croup to root of tail. Deep brisket almost to point of elbow. (Not below the elbow or to the elbow) Ribs well sprung. Moderate tuck up. Length of body from breast to haunch bone slightly longer than height of whiters to ground."

Hindquarters - Strong and muscular. Moderate sweep of stifle. Well developed second thigh. Limbs parallel.

Height - Dogs: 23 inches - 25 inches, Bitches: 21 inches - 24 inches. All over balance must be maintained.

multiple times in the past several years. Clark also helped me evaluate my first two litters of Pharaoh Hounds in 1993 and 1994. In the past he handled 3 of my own dogs and finished Sassy and showed Aries to the top 10 Pharaoh Hound. He trained and showed India for me until she was 10 months old when he retired himself from the ring.

I have a lot of respect for Clark's knowledge and ability to work with dogs. He is freqnently asked to judge Doberman Pinscher sweepstakes in some Florida shows.

Linda, thanks for posting Clark's observations.

Linda Tetreault
Home of Happy Pharaoh Hounds
House of Senbi, since 1987

Sorry, I cut out some of my message accitdentally. I was correcting a typo when I must have deleted part of the sentence.

To make sense of the sentence, I was trying to state that We had had multiple discussions in the past over the breed and breed standard.

When Clark Gable and I first met, he was exhibiting dogs bred by Rita Sacks. Then we met again while he was exhibiting Celaine Burn's boy Bill. Clark, Mary and Celaine all became close friends of mine and we all exhibited against each other in the southern part of the states, plus we supported each other in open discussions about the breed and in the ring.

Both Mary and Celaine have passed away. I missed them dearly.

Linda Tetreault

I was asked to respond to a question in the upcoming Sighthound Review along with other Pharaoh Hound breeders. The question asked what we (as breeders) would like the judges to know. In talking with some other breeders that attended the National, one of the main concerns we all seem to have is that the overall look of our breed seems to be changing. There has always been a difference between the lines (especially those in the US and out) and many breeders dogs are recognizable as having a similar "look" or type, but I would agree that the overall look is changing. They, imo, are becoming more Doberman like in profile. The ewe necks are just one of the changes that we are seeing more and more. What concerns me are the hard to "fix" things like a sloping (severe) topline and extremely straight fronts. Size is becoming a HUGE issue in my opinion. Some of the dogs could have a line drawn from the tip of their ear to the bottom of their toe without bend. Pasterns that are short and straight will result in poor front movement. Flipping of pasterns trying to compensate for a heavy (sometimes barrel) chest and hackney movement are becoming a problem in the ring. The National had a great turnout with many nice dogs represented, but as breeders we do need to watch these issues.
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TiaRa Pharaohs
"Produce quality and present it yourself...that way you know what you've won, when you win"
"Quality isn't expensive, it's priceless."

>>the overall look of our breed seems to be changing.
This.

Don't get me wrong, there are some really nice dogs out there, but what I'm seeing more and more is definitely not the correct, and oh-so-beautiful, Pharaoh Hound I fell in love with so many years ago. Our standard is very clear and easy to understand so I'm not really getting why there's such a diversity in size, heads, eyes, color(liver, some almost brown!!, do not = dark *chestnut*, for example), etc.
Going through the National photos, in order to form my thoughts as objectively as possible, I purposely didn't scroll down enough to see names of dogs and owners. There were quite a few that caused me to go, "Eh??". Granted, it's not the same as actually seeing the dogs in the flesh, watching them move or having hands on, but still, it was a tad disturbing. I did see some really nice ones, too, of course, yay! There was one in particular that immediately took my breath away =)

Aside from any health issues we need to deal with, I've always felt that our responsibility as breeders is to *preserve* this amazing breed, not change it, not "stylize" it.
In other words, and at the risk of being redundant...

"... a great responsibility .. to keep faith with 5,000 years of true breeding...they must shun man's natural tendency to 'improve' which so often in dog breeding terms means to alter out of all recognition"

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~Mariah
Qhaveat Pharaoh
~Since 1987~
...to keep faith with the Ancients...
Dedicated to the preservation of the ancient Egyptian Pharaoh Hound~
~in form & function, body & soul.

Perhaps another look at the illustration from the PHCA illustrated standard would help this thread.

Although, I've never agreed with the topline on this dog and don't think a dog with this topline would be chosen by the judges either. I've always interpreted 'almost straight' as level to the croup, then a slight drop at the croup. Not a dip behind the withers. But beyond that, I think it's a good representation of the written standard.

Some breeders seem to have gotten oversensitive to this thread. This is not how we make progress in openly discussing the breed. I am one of my own dogs' biggest critics. No dog is perfect, including mine. But the point is, I behold the standard as my guide in breeding the next generation.

I'm not oversensitive, Im tired of being attacked time after time by jealous people who has nothing else to do than nagging/complaining. And I'm also tired of that all the ones who agree with me, only answer privately, so that I alone always has to be the one defending my dogs/Swedish dogs/scandinavian dogs/US dogs of Scandinavian origin/heritage. So that I seem to be alone having these viewpoints.

I think this PH isn't drawn by a great/skilly artist (I dont know who). It isnt especially well made, technically, (and certainly not from a standard point of view). Which I can see, as I can paint and draw myself. Besides that, it isnt either showing the standard well, its upperarm is very straight and lacks muscles. Shoulder appears much longer than upperarm. It has an afghan topline. I agree with what you wrote about that, Lori. It dips in the middle, high in bum, and short steep croup. To me the whole dog has an ibizan look to it. And no lines flow smoothly into eachother, but just a lot of lines diverging, working against eachother. Though head, neck and tail are OK to me, and so is thighs. It also seem to be more angulated in rear, than some of you like. It's forechest peak is very low set, and its whole front dont look like a front on a living PH. (except maybe one with a very straight front)

I'm not breeding to follow this picture. It isnt the standard to me, just a bad drawing. The written standard is better describing a PH than this image, to me.

It's also interesting that when I brought up flecking and size a few weeks ago, as a question, almost all answered that they'd forgive a great dog anything, (at least those faults you in USA have ben going on about for so long that you really dislike) which surprised me. As I felt like: if its a fault, or faults carried by another big winning dog than Ramsan, its OK. And now you start on the same again, but now you're condemning it?

And all this about how the breed has changed in US to the worse is just silly. When I looked at those recent National pics of all the dogs, I saw many many great specimens, and just a few poor ones. I was very proud of all the ones I even could tell by just a look they're Ramsans relatives. Of course there were many that wasn't, and also were great.
Farao Anubis Pharaoh Hounds, Sweden

We (Sweden) have all the time had more types, the bigger darker, longer coated, and smaller sleeker more shortcoated, and all between, all which were prestent on Malta and in England. I think US have had all the time a more uniform PH breed? Except maybe Kamaraj, who also had more similarities with the UK and Swe lines, as she used Merymut lines, which of course much in UK and most in Sweden is based on. I think the difference is to find there. And to compare them with Dobermanns, any PH, NO WAY! Its to make it all too easy for yourself. If you think they are similar, you are the one who is BLIND!

I think the breeding in US have been crazy in the past. And in a few places still are. Linebreeding too far, using the same ground dogs in pedigres, over and over again, until the dog has the same 2-4 dogs EVERYWHERE in its pedigree, its there in the background, though the dogs in front have new and different kennelnames. No wonder you get health issues.

I assume you Lori, and Kim and others are going on about the Ramsan heritage in US. So lets see what you're picking on, its not like I or we in Europe, if you ever can pile upp such a large number of people like that, have "invented" this look, or Ramsan, or our PHs don't descend from anything but where grewn out of the grass here. Ramsans mother is a bitch you admire, and from a litter you very much admire, right? (though she had excessive white, and an eweneck, so did some of her siblings too, they also had more angulation in rear, than many "pure" US PHs) His father is half Shema, half Maltese/Merymut/Twinley. This "look" you describe can be seen in great specimens in earlier UK dogs. And also on Malta there are big, dark dogs. When will you get it that ALL our PHs, yours and ours, descend from just a handful of dogs brought to UK, and some more recent Maltese imports?

The only things I do agree with, is that necks here can be "eweish", some, and some have bent noses, (I see that, nose-thing, more in the Finnish PHs though) and we do care less about excessive white and flecking, but we do have more diversed pedigrees, we permit more dogs to be used, we're not as strict as you, thus giving us more to choose from, and easier to get ahead, and all which make us able to achive PHs that are known worldwide as the best* PHs, and also to not exclude as many dogs as you, makes it easier to keep the breed healthy. *Scandinavian PHs do have that reputation, and I feel its not wrongly so. Where did you all have to go when the "pure US PH" breeding went bad from too much line and inbreeding for too long?
Where would you be now, if you wouldn't have?

I dont like that a mob of people in US want to lobby for "the crap scandinavian/Swedish PH" to all judges and all who want to listen, and solka ner vårt rykte, tillslut slår det rot. (sorry, couldnt find the words in English, as i have to battle in a language that isnt mine, we can try mine, if you want to? then you'd be the disabled one.
Farao Anubis Pharaoh Hounds, Sweden

Maria: Myself being the FIRST American to have ever imported a Pharaoh Hound from Sweden to America (1993), I can (and do) understand your thoughts and sentiments. At the time I imported this bitch (Group Winning, SBIS, AKC Ch. Enigma Sweet-Heather Bell) I felt that the American stock needed some genetic expansion as well as some of the positive attributes that could be found within the Swedish Pharaoh Hounds. And all that before the internet was even invented!! So much easier for people today to see what's out there and still so many (but not all) approach it with an uneducated and/or a biased eye. That's sad.

As for the picture from the Illustrated guide....no, it's not good enough to illustrate perfect construction.

Nancy Sowerbutts
~Sovrin~

*I assume you Lori, and Kim and others are going on about Ramsan heritage in US* Maria

You assume WRONG.

A comment made 9 years ago that he wasn't my cup of tea and that NO DOG no matter how big the professional handler, advertising and money behind it, should win every show, continues to be held against me (even though I have apologized).
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TiaRa Pharaohs
"Produce quality and present it yourself...that way you know what you've won, when you win"
"Quality isn't expensive, it's priceless."

>>I assume you Lori, and Kim and others are going on about the Ramsan heritage in US.

My comment/s apply to *all* of us, not any particular dog or breeder.

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~Mariah
Qhaveat Pharaoh
~Since 1987~
...to keep faith with the Ancients...
Dedicated to the preservation of the ancient Egyptian Pharaoh Hound~
~in form & function, body & soul.

Swedish topwinning dobermanns, for those interested to compare that breed to PHs... and also interesting to compare Swedish dobermanns with American!

http://www.jeandark.com/
Farao Anubis Pharaoh Hounds, Sweden