Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hi

I am researching suicide mechanisms amongst reptiles.

Unfortunately, my only pre-existing research knowledge of this topic comes from a dim memory of newsgroup postings from around five years ago.

I recently got my girlfriend's cousin hooked on herps, starting him off with a young Corn snake. The youngster looked healthy but despite "perfect" environmental conditions she refused all meals whether live or pre-killed (newborn mice, lizards, frogs and everything else I could think to try).

She used to lie in the open a lot and eventually died.

This prompted memories of the "suicide mechanism" thread I saw and I wondered if anyone here has carried out research in this field?

The hypothesis of the mechanism was that snakes born with genetic faults, or with some underlying pathological disorder, would starve themselves and take uncharacteristic risks (such as lying in the open awaiting a predator) to remove themselves from the gene pool, and thus preventing such a fault replicating itself in the species.

Far fetched and without substantiation? Perhaps. But an interesting hypothesis which I believe has been studied under laboratory conditions.

Any help, information or references gladly received.
Many thanks in advance,

Lee P. Yates,
Kiros Reptiles / Edge Hill University, England

This seems like a weak hypothesis to me but do whatever it takes to get your PhD I guess. Think hard and there are many more likely reasons explaining their behavior to use your grant money on.

Thank you for taking time to write this seemingly sarcastic reply. I'm sure it was an excellent use of departmental time (I'm presuming you're out of high school?).

As it happens, my PhD is based around working memory deficits caused by delta-9 tetrahydrocannabinol; primarily focusing on the fractionated central executive and spatial working memory.

Herpetology is now a passion of my private time, having turned down an invitation from a well known British university to read field biology with specialism in herpetology.

I never once indicated that I was using the "suicide mechanism" as a research hypothesis for my PhD, that I recall? I explicitly stated that I was simply curious about an old newsgroup thread having being quizzed by my girlfriend's cousin following the death of his corn snake.

Thank you for your time.

Lee P Yates
Kiros Reptiles / Edge Hill University

>>This seems like a weak hypothesis to me but do whatever it takes to get your PhD I guess. Think hard and there are many more likely reasons explaining their behavior to use your grant money on.

>>>>>As it happens, my PhD is based around working memory deficits caused by delta-9 tetrahydrocannabinol; primarily focusing on the fractionated central executive and spatial working memory.
>>>>>>

Ahh, good old delta-9 THC...one of natures finest gifts to mankind. You could have just said you were studying memory deficit of pot man, hahaha, and besides, forgetting where my keys are occasionally is an acceptable trade to the joy marijuana, or specifically THC has brought to my life and millions of others (not to mention the medical patients who recieve relief through it.). I sincerely hope you approach this in an unbiased viewpoint, if i find a thesis on the net from you that is entirely negative, i'll be disapointed, .
Anyway, i know this is a reptile forum, and i am a herpetoculturist myself, but i just wanted to comment on the pot thing,

psilocybe

P.S. Know what my handle is?

Oh yes, and a very interesting hypothesis, looking forward to any updates as they come along.

Magic mushrooms.......
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1.1 Ball Python 0.0.1 corn snake 1.0 Bearded Dragon
0.0.2 fish 1.2 cats 3.1 kids 1.0 husband and now...
0.0.1 Pink Zebra Beauty Tarantula

I believe it is not so much a suicide mechanism as it is just a defect somewhere in the reptile's creation. I doubt it could be called suicide as they are not aware of it, nor they do they have the capacity to be aware of such thing. To me it seems like survival of the fittest. Normally the smaller animals of the clutch do not feed as readily and die off, providing food for other species and thus completing the food chain, possibly even saving some siblings from predators. I have seen it in quite a few species of snakes, especially hognose. The runts tend to fair poorly, and are often anorexic. Plus, this anorexic condition can be caused by many other things. It could be a neurological problem, it could be parasites, stress, ect. Suicide...doubtful. But there are many other explanations before "suicide." BTW, did you ever get a necropsy done on the corn? Andy
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Andy Maddox
Houston Herp Key
The Reptizone

Burgundy baby, With your blue eyed soul, You play the hits and I'm on that roll, Capricorn sister, Freddie Mercury, Jupiter Child cry

I have encountered this problem before. I think it is a very good hypothesis. The snakes even though they are offered food items that are naturally occuring in their own environment will not feed. Although quite expensive it would be interesting to study the genetics of the snakes in question.
In just about every clutch of snake eggs I hatch there seems to be a couple or few that just do not want to feed regardless of what you do. In nature of course it is said that animals only replace themselves.
Jason

Heard this lots over the last 30 years and
it's always a health or environment issue - no more.
Usually the problem is undiagnosed even by so-called experts.

Putting a reluctant eater in a paper bag with its food almost always makes them eat. I think it is more likely natural selection than a suicide mechanism. A weak animal might not be stimulated to eat but being in close quarters with the food usually gives them their appetite back.

Seems more likely that the underlying genetic defect or pathology would be sufficient to explain refusing food, which would explain wasting away, which would explain increased lethargy and lying around in the open...without having to invoke a suicide mechanism.

No need to invoke it for the "good of the species" either. If the genetic defect is serious enough to impair reproductive success, it will be selected against anyway...

I have seen photos of newborn rattlesnakes that have suposedly died from bites that they inflicted upon themselves. If its a true suicide or not, I dont know. But prehapse you could ask around in the venomous forums to see if this type of behavior is very common.

I think it would be an interesting project to study. I don't think reptiles have the capacity to premeditate an actual "suicide", (in the emotion-laden human sense) but I do think underlying pathogens may cause an animal to act abberantly, causing early death or unsuccessful breeding. Apply that to humans, too..
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1.1 Ball Python
0.0.1 corn snake
1.0 Bearded Dragon
0.0.2 fish
1.2 cats
3.1 kids
1.0 husband

>>Hi
>>
>>I am researching suicide mechanisms amongst reptiles.
>>
>>Unfortunately, my only pre-existing research knowledge of this topic comes from a dim memory of newsgroup postings from around five years ago.
>>
>>I recently got my girlfriend's cousin hooked on herps, starting him off with a young Corn snake. The youngster looked healthy but despite "perfect" environmental conditions she refused all meals whether live or pre-killed (newborn mice, lizards, frogs and everything else I could think to try).
>>
>>She used to lie in the open a lot and eventually died.
>>
>>This prompted memories of the "suicide mechanism" thread I saw and I wondered if anyone here has carried out research in this field?
>>
>>The hypothesis of the mechanism was that snakes born with genetic faults, or with some underlying pathological disorder, would starve themselves and take uncharacteristic risks (such as lying in the open awaiting a predator) to remove themselves from the gene pool, and thus preventing such a fault replicating itself in the species.
>>
>>Far fetched and without substantiation? Perhaps. But an interesting hypothesis which I believe has been studied under laboratory conditions.
>>
>>Any help, information or references gladly received.
>>Many thanks in advance,
>>
>>Lee P. Yates,
>>Kiros Reptiles / Edge Hill University, England

Maybe if u play Pantera while cleaning cages? If that's the case, all my snakes should be dead. Pathogen related brother, along w/ bad cleaning habits. But hey, u never know, I never count anything out. Peace, TF

I would say that it probably is, in part, inherited. However, to study this in captive animals is missing the point. There is no way to tell if these animals would be fine in their natural habitat. I think this process simply eliminates animals that are not suited for captivity. Acaptive environment is so fundamentally different than anything they would experience in the wild that it would be impossible to isolate any other variable. Reptiles are creatures of instinct and seemingly nothing else controls their actions. Although I have no evidence for this, I would assume that this problem was even more common in the earlier days of captive breeding. This should be especially evident in an animal that has been bred in captivity as long and as much as corn snakes. I have to disagree that this is actual suicide and not just an inability to cope with captivity.
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