Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hi, I just got onto this forum because I am interested in saturniids and sphingids. I am especially interested in Automeris, as I used to rear generations of io's.
I was drawn to the thread you first started Mezaway, about finding the gravid io moth. I'm sure by now, the larvae have matured and are pupae. If memory serves me right..with good feeding, io's pupate in about 3-1/2 weeks from hatch.
Lele, I don't know about there being hundreds of eggs with Automeris moths. A typical clutch is 22-25 eggs..in a cluster...then she dies. Fertile eggs will show a black dot on top after about 3 days. This spot turns brown 2-3 days before hatching, and hatchling pillars do eat their egg shells before moving on to vegetation.
Yes, you are correct in that io's sting. Yes, it hurts like fire ants, too. I mean really hurts! However, it is only after the second instar that these larvae begin to sting. The tiny browns and as they grow [while still brown] have soft spines yet, not capable of stinging. Do watch out for their color change. green means sting and I have found that good grade leather work gloves work fine for handling. Yes, I have literally had to move them many times to clean their box and add new food.
I have not had the opportunity to rear other saturniid species, as I just never found any luna or polyphemus larvae or ova. However, with io's, it's not that hard to change their diet and io's are not as picky as many other saturniids or moths in general. This was proven by having collected larvae from one tree or plant and having to transfer them home, to where I had at least 4-5 different food plants. I knew this much as I had seen and maybe collected the io's from. In my yard alone, I had ash, Arborvita, redbud, johnson grass...all preferred food for io's. Other trees and plants are wisteria, willow, roses, sycamore, and legumes. Maybe it's easier to say what io's won't eat. They don't like maple or elm....at least as far as I know. I had a large silver maple in my yard..never saw an io on it. Same goes for neighborhood elms.
Johnson grass is a sorghum, and io's love all sorghums and corn! They are never actually a crop pest as they don't mass. Since a typical brood is only about 24 or so, there's never enough to consider and infestation. Also, it is nature's way to disperse the tight little group of io's after their second or at least third instar. Their spines are stiff, can sting, so they are well on their way. A disturbed larva will roll up with all spines to the outside. No bird will eat them, but with leather work gloves, it's sure a lot easier to pick up....without harm to them.
If you have cocoons, open them up and take out the pupae. the small ones will be males, and the larger ones will be the females. Male io moths are very striking...they are yellow and still have the bright eyespots on hindwings.
Post again, and give us an update on these io's.

Hey fellow moth-er and welcome to the forum!

I have not heard from bobby (aka mezaway) either on the forum or via email. I wonder if the cats died and she/he (not sure gender) thinks we'll be mad. bobby - if you are reading this and that's the case please post! We have all had casualties and although it can be very sad and frustrating it happens.

I've been rearing for about 6 years and never tire of it. I just had a reared female and called in wild cecropia pair for nearly 24 hours. I released them yesterday after collecting a couple dozen eggs from her. My luna pair just separated after about 16 hours of coupling and I will collect and release.

As for eggs from your io’s….they typically lay in clusters of about 20 (give or take) and then deposit another cluster elsewhere. This is a survival mechanism. If they only laid 20 or 30 total and a bird came along and got them all well, then io’s would be a rare moth The io’s, like cecropia (and some others) are very gregarious their first few instars whereas luna disperse almost immediately after hatching.

The largest (cecropia, poly’s and luna) typically lay 250-300 eggs over a period of 3-5 days. The smaller Saturnids (io’s, imperialis, etc.) deposit 100-150 or more. As for food, sassafras is a preferred food in the north, but as you mentioned they do have a broad selection. It’s interesting how some species will readily change food plant and others would rather die – literally!

Just a thought on rearing to nearly eliminate handling (besides sleeving) is to put the food plant/branch into a water pick (used by florist, not the tooth cleaner – LOL!) and stand them upright in cups or jars. The cats feed, the frass falls and as they finish the food you just replace with fresh and they will move on to them. I have been using this method almost from the beginning and find it works quite well. I keep the cats and food plant in screen cages, glass tanks w/screen covers or what ever is appropriate for the temp and instar (to manage humidity, etc.)

So what part of the country are you in? have you looked for cocoons in late winter? – well, if you’re in the north

Later,
lele

p.s. bobby hope to hear from you!!

Thanks for the info, Lele. I have not ever had the opportunity to ever locate luna larvae or find a gravid moth. I have, however, lived in a part of Texas where lunas were reasonably common. I just never found any io's in that area. I used to live in north central Texas and io's were common until the late 1970's. The last brood I had was collected in the late summer of 1977 and overwintered as pupae. All 24 eclosed and were released as I saw no evidence of matings within that brood.
I have never seen any io moth lay more than 25 eggs per cluster...even when I have reared them and had matings. I wonder if captivity had anything to do with that. The sad fact is, that the io has disappeared from most of it's former haunts throughout the greater D/FW region. I can cite 2 major factors. First, the common icneumon, less common before the late 70's seems to prefer saturniids...at least io's. Second, is the fact that more people now use commercial lawn chemicals than ever before. Most yuppies hire professional lawn care services, which include insecticides....primarily for white grubs, but also have an adverse affect on non-pest insects feeding or living on trees and ornamentals. The io is a victim as it pupates at ground level, subject to the chemicals. The great ash sphinx, another still common hornworm, finds safety in the lofty branches of the ash trees on which it exclusively feeds. Its advantage is an underground pupation which is common with sphingids.
I can still find great ash hornworms. It often takes great patience and keen vision to locate them, then a long-reach trimmer to bring them down. The io's were always easy targets. The gregarious youngsters hide in clusters on the underside of the leaves. If they were there, I could still find them as I knew what to look for. I often found the larger green io's individually, but could pick them up with good gloves.
Unlike hornworms, io's rarely needed covers on their containers. As long as fresh food was present, they stayed in their jars and cans. Io's are really quite tame and since their stinging spines were their protection, they never acted aggressively as do hornworms, which thrash wildly at times and spit a lot when handled. Despite their spines, io's became one of my all-time favorite pillars as a kid and I sure do want to find some.
I live in Oklahoma now, and am always looking at redbuds, wisteria and willows...in hopes of finding some.

Hi,

they lay in clusters of 20 but they lay many clusters over a period of time. Maybe you released them before she laid more. Probably just as well since it can get tough rearing a zillion little cats! LOL!

Unfortunately, many saturnids (and other leps and minibeasts) have been severely impacted by humans and our "needs." Have you read the book The Forgotten Pollinator's? Sad.

My first io just eclosed today! It's a female so I am going to see if she will call in a wild male tonight. If there is success I can send you some eggs just pay for appropriate shipping.

I too am very partial to the sphingid's. My first true rearing experience was with the Manduca sexta - such handsome moths!

I have 4 pupae (one eclosed yesterday) of Sphinx poecila aka Northern Apple Sphinx. I collected a female at my light last year and brought her in just to i.d. her. Well, the next morning there were a hundred (or more) tiny green eggs! I was not planning on rearing them it was just by chance! I sent many to a friend and kept about thirty. had some die off, let others go once they were far enough along and kept 6. 2 had difficulty pupating and didn't make it. I'll probably release this one tonight.

lele

Hey..if you can call in a wild male and get some fertile eggs, I would be very much obliged to have some. In fact, just due to the pressures on Automeris in the city [I haven't found any locally in Oklahoma City yet, either} I want all of the eggs you don't wish to keep. Yes, I have had up to 5 broods at a time, but usually only 1-3, which was 24-75 larvae, but none of my broods were ever same age.
Yes, I want to keep a few for broodstock, but it would make me so happy to rear/release at least 60 or more io's to the wild....this time, out in the country, at strategic locales in the county. Like I said before, io's are NOT crop pests, and do not upset the balance of the ecosystem by their reintroduction in this region. Yes, I will pay postage for viable eggs.
By the way, speaking of sphingids, if you ever get to see a Eumorpha achemon, you're in for a treat. The larvae are as big as most sphinxes will get...larger than Manducas. They feed on grapes and Virginia creeper. In fact, until I saw some achemons on Va. creeper, I never knew the 2 plants were related! Observing insects is a good key to understanding botany. I will have to tell you about the "wild tomatoes" I discovered as a young kid.
To understand my passion for literally "farming" pillars in mass, I go to Wal Mart and buy 6-10 [once a month or so] of the big translucent Sterilite tubs for housing pillars, reptiles, other bugs, growing plants, misc. storage and other uses. It would sure be nothing to pick up another stack of the 10 gal size....one tub for each brood of io's, then keep them in my shop. LOL!
I want to find some nightshade hornworms. M. sexta is reasonably common, but I really want some M. quinquemaculata...the real tomato hornworm. Quinquemaculatas are not as hansome of a larva as the sexta, but it is sure worth a little boost from concerned conservationists. I am just that, because why is there so few of them as opposed to the sexta? Hmmm.
I will tell you a story of a rather mutualistic relationship between certain nightshades and the Manducas, if you remind me next time you post. Yes, Manducas have a valuable role in the balance of nature!