Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Lele, I've decided to order some hornworm food from Mulberry Farms. If I had the capital, I'd invest in the commercial silkworm kit to raise those in quantity. I was seriously contemplating buying live baby hornworms from them, but even on sale, $7 only buys me about 12 pillars, plus just enough feed to rear them to pupae.
Now, if I buy a starter kit from Manduca Project, I'll get 50 eggs, some feed and some other unique info. 50 will give me a very good start and some breeding stock. I also just sent of for 2 packets of tobacco seeds, each a different variety. I think tobacco will be just the perfect crop as it is all foliage, lots of it, and huge leaves!
If it sounds somewhat odd having to BUY hornworms of all things and paying as much for them as I would for common goldfish, it's because I have had absolutely NO luck this summer finding just one single Manduca that could live. ALL were parasitized! Grrr!
I you remember a while back, I posted about having some sextas that quit eating when I ran out of tomato and black nightshade leaves. I tried groundcherry but they just quit eating. I went back to tomato, and for 2 days, I thought they were fine and eating. Not so, although they stayed on the plant, rather than wander off. I came home from work to find that even these were sick! One, only half-grown, had just dropped off, and was lying on the table, DEAD! The other, disoriented, refused to eat and since it was already purged, I could not see if the frass was runny or not. Wasps apparently stay in the muscular tissues, while flies just bore all through the insides, breaking the stomach wall.
When the big 4th instar sexta died, I put it in a sealed mason jar jst to see exactly what would emerge. Just as I expected, a few days later, i came home to see about a dozen fly pupae in the jar. Another week later, I had adult tachinids which were never allowed to escape. I was really angered and saddened because I wanted so much to have a pupa and later, a hawk moth. I began a campaign of finding/destroying any sick-looking hornworms in the neighbor's garden. 2 weeks ago, I finally found a 4th instar one that looked really healthy, so I brought it home.
All was well until 5 days or so, I began to notice dark freckles on ventral and oblique sides. Not good, but I kept it for benefit of doubt. When it quit eating and left a perfectly good tomato stem, I knew it was going to be the same deadly cycle. I put it down and dissected to find several maggots all throughout the body. I just dropped it in the same jar with the now dead flies from the last hatch. These, too, will never escape!
It would sure be nice to be able to breed a few hornworms with a chemical of their own to resist fly or wasp parasites and have only a small percentage of them released to the wild....to ensure survival of the species. i think the entire hornworm crop in this neck of the woods has been lost this season. Not good if nature is thrown so far out of balance.

hey there - sorry only now getting back to you! I somehow missed this post!

I fully understand how you feel about ordering them due to the problem of parasitisation. All but 5 of my io’s succumbed to disease - no parasites b/c they were outdoors in sleeves. Not that this still could not have happened as the wasp can deposit right through the remay, but disease got them instead.

A thought on parasites, though…those that are native do play a role and fill an ecological niche. They do keep species in balance. Some years are worse than others as with all insects they are cyclical. Humans are much more destructive to our 6 & 8 legged fauna. One of the parasites that is a real problem with the Saturnids is Compsilura concinnata which is NOT native and was brought in as a biological control for gypsy moths. Here in the Northeast, and elsewhere, it has seriously influenced the populations and decline. Are you a member of the Xerces Society? I know you gave me your address (I think) but email it to me again and I will send you a copy of their latest issue of Wings http://www.xerces.org/wings/wings.htm which has an article on this and other bio-controls impacting leps.

Do you know if this particular fly (Compsilura concinnata ) is in OK (that’s where you are, right?)? You might want to see if anyone is doing research on Sphingids/parasites at a local University. A contact might be one of the authors of the Forgotten Pollinators. Stephen Buchmann & Gary Nabhan via http://www.esa.org/ecoservices/poll/body.poll.case.prog.html. In the book there is a very depressing chapter on the decline of Manduca at the border of US and MX due to pesticide spraying on the MX side. In particular they were concerned about the night blooming cereus cactus which is typically pollinated by the white-lined sphinx and the tomato hornworm. Anyway, just a thought. Maybe you can find someone who will be interested in any that you find for research.

It is truly sad and I empathize with your frustration! It is very distressing and others look at me like I’m nuts!

I think your tobacco plant plan is a good one! They are quite leafy and huge. I would assume easy to grow in your climate, too.

Mulberry Farm has a very good reputation for their silkworms and hornworms. Once you get a colony going you will be set! I am familiar with them b/c I own herps and lots of folks feed hornworms to their pets. I can feed my Luna many insects, but I do draw the line on some – hornworms being one. I have a friend in So. Cal. who has done presentations to nature centers, schools, etc. on Manduca’s. I sent him some eggs of a Sphinx poecila (Northern Apple Sphinx) that I got from a female I collected in our barn last years It was funny, I brought her in to i.d. her and the next morning she had presented me with a hundred or so bright green little eggs! I kept a few to rear and sent the rest to Robin. Maybe I can put you two in touch b/c your clime is similar and you can swap eggs/pupae etc.

With my A. io loss being so great I think what I will do is keep the ones I have, hope for a healthy female and try to wild pair her. I can then send you fresh eggs. With only 5 pupae I couldn’t guarantee you a female. I just hope these few will make it to eclosion next summer.

later,
lele

Lele, I don't blame you for wanting to keep all 5 of the io's. 5 is not much to work with and if you had reared all that you had started with, 6-8 would be the least I would want. Yes, that means only about 3-4 females and a total of only 600-800 eggs. It's only just a drop compared to insect numbers, but 600 io could make a difference in central Oklahoma.
Hey, do apple sphinx eat other fruit trees? If so, I want some apple sphinx. In fact, I'm wanting to collect as many different species of both sphingids as well as saturniids to produce.
No, I honestly don't mind feeding captive reared and even a few wild-caught hornworms to pet herps. I do love reptiles. I always urge the use of cultured insects just to make sure they are parasite and disease-free, as opposed to our wild resources. I am grateful that most saturniids now in collections and art displays are rom cultured stock.
I grew up around gamebird and poultry farming. I love raising birds of all kinds. I equate the silkworm to the common broiler chicken, tobacco hornworms are more like the ring-necked pheasant...mass-producible, though not as grand a scale as the broiler chickens. Likewise, the big saturniids are more like the exotic or fancy pheasants....still produced, but not on any mass-scale. Io's and tomato hornworms are also conducive to hefty larger-scale production, but it just is not being done. Yes, I am looking for Manduca quinquemaculata as a compliment to my sextas.
No, I don't enjoy killing these caterpillars, but if it means keeping other animals healthy, it has to be done. I have to kill a chicken or a pheasant if I want to eat meat. I really desire to produce big moths for schools and hobbyists.
I will look into contacting some of the people you have mentioned.