Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Batagur, I notcied that you were refering to Pyxidea mouhotii as Cuora mouhotii in a previous post. Has this species been reclassified into the Cuora genus? I am usually one of the last to catch the new taxonomy as it comes through and was just wanting to make sure it had changed. Thanks

Ryan

Yes, Pyxidea has been synonymized with Cuora. Makes perfect sense considering mouhotii and Cuora galbinifrons hybridize to form Cuora "serrata", which is a reproductively viable turtle.

I don't have the reference in front of me but the change is based on molecular evidence and the ability to produce viable offspring with C. galbinifrons. In fact, I'm not sure the paper has actually been published yet but I think it has.

You're going to see a few more changes to the taxonomy of asian species over the coming years. Chinemys and Ocadia will more than likely be synonymized with Mauremys. And there will be others.

So, Cuora has been shown to be a monophyletic group. This means that all current species diverged from one common ancestor. Therefore, the genus Cistoclemmys is not valid or recognized. Nor is the genus Pyxidea.

Here is the citation for the Pyxidea change:

Honda, M., Yasukawa, Y., Hirayama, R., Ota, H., 2002. Phylogenetic relationships of the Asian box turtles of the genus Cuora sensu lato (Reptilia: Bataguridae) inferred from mitochondrial DNA sequences. Zool. Sci. 19, 1305-1312.

The following species are currently recognized within the genus Cuora.

C. aurocapitata
C. mccordi
C. pani
C. mouhotii
C. trifaciata
C. flavomarginata
C. galbinifrons
C. bourreti
C. picturata
C. zhoui
C. amboinensis
C. yunnanensis (most likely not a valid species-it's only known from 4 immature specimens)
C. "serrata" (known to be a hybrid of male C. mouhotii and female C. galbinifrons or female C. bourreti)

Right on. Thanks for the info and the reference. I have that journal here at school. I'll go read the article.

Ryan

so where does this leave:
Scalia pseudocellata ( has it been gentically determined if this is a scalai - trifasciata cross? is it sterile?)

what about Ocadia philippeni?
and iversoni?

iversoni is definately a hybrid....I would say more Asian species will be found to be hybrids...perhaps even wild hybrids. I do know that at least two farms in China produce hybrid iversoni on purpose. I've got pics of the parents mating and the resultant hatchlings. Male Cuora trifasicata will mate with anything and depending on the coloration of the animals involved you can get varying degress of differences in offspring. It also depends on what species is the father and which one is the mother. When you have a species that is considered so rare but yet has so much variety in appearance it 'could' be the result of hybridization. Usually rare species bottleneck and the genetic pool is so small that there isn't much diversity over time.
Best wishes,
Mike N.

yeah i know iversoni is a hybrid so are the other species in my post. i wanted to know if chris knew if they were able to reproduce and where they would be classified if they could.

I'll get back to you soon on this. There was recently an article published on the different asian hybrids, including the one you mentioned. I'll dig it up this weekend.

I think it is a mistake to assume that hybrids cannot produce viable offspring. I don't think taxonomy needs to change to make hybrid viability explainable. You can have two separate species hybridize and produce offspring that are fertile and not have to assume those parental species must be the same genus. I sometimes wonder if hybridization isn't *one* of natures ways to produce new species over time. There are snakes that can self fertilize if no males are around, some seem hermaphroditic, so it is not too much of a stretch to believe that hybrids can be fertile and fit into taxomony. I think the old way to believe in hybrids was that they would always be infertile. In reptiles and specifically turtles this does not seem to be the case. Cuora flavomarginata and Geoemyda japonica hybridize on islands in South Japan. These hybrids are more beautiful than the genetically pure animals, just like serrata is. I believe that these hybrids are also fertile. There is no way that we can place Geoemyda japonica and Cuora flavomarginata in the same genus. I have heard of hybrids of Pyxidea and Geoemyda doing the same thing. It is very interesting and hybrids are definately worth studying. The problem with genetic research is that it doesn't always flow with morphological research. You have to deal with ancestry from fossil records to extend the relationships of present day turtles to those of fossils using morphology. I just don't feel that Pyxidea is close enough to Cuora morphologically to throw away morphology and believe totally with what the genetics tell us. But the people working on this are far more experienced than me but it is frustrating when you look at animals so distinct and yet the genetics tell you something else.
Best wishes,
Mike N.

Absolutely right

The new classification from this above article is vague and many experts do not agree with it totaly.
Where did you get that information on Geoemyda japonica x Cuora flavomarginata evelynae hybrids? Are there any photos of them? or on the pyxidea x geoemyda hybrids? So far I've only seen iversoni, pritchardi, philippeni, glyphistoma, amboinensis x reevesi, serrata of all types, pseudocelata, ocadia sinensis x chinemys (reevesi & nigricans), mutica x chinemys, mutica x sacalia, chinemys x sacalia, pyxidea x trifasciata?....
and as one of the few, I had been able to have a look on the 2 yunnanensis specimens in Vienna Museum, in my believe this is a Hybrid of Chinemys reevesi x Cuora pani or something like that.
zhoui and mccordi are still questioned.

Tom,
I am with you 100%!

Can you tell me what characteristics made you feel that yunnanesis was a hybrid of reevesii and pani? I remember awhile back someone else on the asian turtle crisis list suggested yunnanesis was a hybrid of reevesii and something else. I cannot remember the other species they suggested. It seems like so many turtles are collected in the wild in China that sooner or later they come across wild hybrids. We come across them in the US too occasionally. The key to look out for is variability in a "species" that is considered vary rare. Usually this is due to the sexes of the parents being reversed and due to the genetics being expressed in the hatchlings differently. If you have seen the pictures of the serrata hatchlings that show three distinct characteristics from one set of parents it really shows how this can happen. One baby looks completely "serrata" while another looks galbinifrons and the third looks mouhotii. All from the same pair! Just from collecting photographs of some of the new asian taxa I can see more variability than I would in species that was much more common.

Yes I have an article and photos of the Geoemyda japonica x Cuora flavomarginata if you are interested. Remind me in private email and I will try to scan them for you.

The P. mouhotii x G. spengleri is a hybrid that I have heard of but yet I have no photos or documentation other than personal communication with those that have seen them.

If you have any photos of hybrid turtles please let me know. I have a few that I can send you as well. Also, I am interested in seeing any photos you took of the museum specimens of yunnanensis.

Best wishes,
Mike N.