Reptile & Amphibian Forums

$1000. latter (not to mention unsaid quanity of tears)...

"On physical exanimation, Hewey is QAR. The skin is peeling in areas along back. Several 1cm raised bumps are present bilaterally along thorax and abdomen, corresponding to sites of SQ fluid injections, per owner. There is marked general weakness in the limbs, more so in the hind limbs. The lizard ambulates partially by using tha abdomen. The abdomen is tense and difficult to palpate.
CBC reveals anemia (19%). Chemistry reveals hyperglobulinemia (5.7g/dl), and elevated creatine kinase (937 IU/1).
Abdominal ultrasound reveals that the liver is of normal echogencity, but there is free scant fluid in the abdomen. A sample of the fluid was taken and it shows high protein (5.3 g/dl) and nucleated cells (4200/ul).
Differential diagnosis include underlying primary disease (gastrointestinal impaction or parasitism/ ulceration, viral infection, bacterial infection, liver or kidney disease), with possible secondary metronidazole (Flagyl) sensitivity and/ or heptic lipidosis. The final diagnosis remains open at this time."

Home care will involve the following:

1. Injections of Ceftazidime (Fortaz) injected every 72 hours (intromuscular).

2. Lactulose given 1ml orally, every 24 hours for liver disease and constipation.

3. Carpefen given .5ml orally, every 48 hours for pain and inflamation.

4. Lactated Ringer's solution given 35ml SQ every 24 hours for 14 days.

5. Warm water soaks in 90-90f every 12 hours for 20 min.
Exercise every 12 hours, perferable outside in direct sunlight.

6. Gavage feeding of Hill's AD diet every 48 hours.

Ideally, monitor lizards the size and age of Hewey should be fed 1-4 mice twice a week. Feeding monitors too much will lead to obesity which can lead to heptic lipidosis or kidney disease. Feeding monitors too frequently can lead to gastrointestinal impaction with fur and bones witch have not had time to be digested. Do not use Heweys feeding responce to determine how much he eats. Adjust how much he is fed based on his activity level and weight gain. We will help you determine the ideal feeding pattern after Hewey is well."

I am confused, because on his paperwork they wrote him to be 18 months old. Hewey is less than 10 months of age. I told the vet this, and she said "Oh dear, hes HUGE!". I dont think they realised that he is still very much a baby. A GROWING baby!

There is still a long road ahead of us all...

-Michelle

If it were me, at this point I would put him down. That is going to be an unbelievable amount of stress it is going to have. Force feeding anything to a monitor seems like the wrong thing to do. When my Griseus stopped feeding last year, I took him to the vet and was given some type of cat food to force feed it. After doing it a couple of times, I just couldn't bear to see him go through it. You probably are using one of those speculum type things to open his mouth right? When I used it, it would rip out it's teeth and make it's mouth all bloody. Then to have to force that syringe type thing down it's throat to push the food down was even worse. It looks like you are having to give multiple substances daily along with injections. I don't think it will make it very long on that schedule. Not to mention the pain and extreme stress that is involved with it. Ultimatly, it's your decision and your monitor though. I'm just letting you know how it can be from personal experience. Good luck with it either way. It's very heartbreaking to have a monitor in the condition yours is in. You have shown extreme dedication to him, which shows you really care for it. I do hope he pulls through though. -Jeff

Hey with that type of encouragement, I can just see him "pulling right through". Its tough to see him suffer,but we all suffer at some point(reptiles included) and can bounce back, if theres a chance. You don't just tell a cancer patient thats going through chemotherapy, hey we should just put you down because the stress of barfing and the pain your going through is not worth you living, if you make it. Its not a dog thats 15 and suffering with hip dysplasia. I say Michelle try the best you can. Only you and the people your working with can decide whats best for your monitor. Best of luck!
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______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ " If you can't dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with bullsh1t"

Im half tempted to have Hank Wesselman, a Shammanic healer that lives nearby, come to my house and do a few healing sessions!

I dont think Hewey's in a lot of discomfort for his tube feedings. I give him his painkillers prior to going in to the vet ofice, so along with their gentelness he has an extra calming agent of the drugs working on him. -Dont get me wrong, I know hes under a lot of stress, but his feedings dont seem nearly as hard as what JT described. I havent even seen any bleeding gums, let alone broken teeth, like he described. I do nothing to Hewey that I dont feel 100% comfortable doing. If I dont want to do an injection, like tonight I was supposed to start the inramuscular injections of Fortaz, Ill have the vet demonstrate first. They are more than happy to instruct me on stuff like injections and so forth, until Im comfortable with doing it, not to mention to make sure Im doing it properly.

I have a very open line of communication with both Dr. Forney from the Roseville Bird and Pet Clinic, as well as Dr. Singelton from the University of CA Davis Small Animal Clinic. Not to mention both Doctors speak freely back and forth, and we all three have been doing vast amounts of research since day one. It is a team process and were all working for a common goal. I am not going to just give up. If you could see his eyes, you would know that there is so much life in this tyke. Hes too young to be given up on. I can not, and will not just put him down without knowing I did all I could do within my power to make things right for him. I mean, after all, its more than likely my fault that hes like this. Its my responsibility to fix what I screwed up.

Yours truly...

Hey, like I said, do what you want, it's your monitor. I'm only giving advice from personal experience, and what happened to me. After a few times of the feeding, you could tell he was super stressed out by it, and wouldn't have lasted much more. The bloody mouth and broken teeth were impossible to avoid if you are using the device I was using from the vet to open it's mouth. It's like a bent hanger looking thing. That you slide in the mouth and turn up to open it's mouth for the force feeding. It even happened to the vet I use, who is a member of that veterinary association group. Like I said before, I wish you and it the best of luck with whatever you decide to do.
-Jeff

Next time try two strips of gauze slipped between the jaws. Pull up on the top piece of gauze and down on the bottom piece of gauze to open the mouth. This usually requires two people.

The teeth structure of v. griseus vs v. albigularis is very different. The short rounded type teeth albigs have would be hard to pull from there mouth during force feeding. there teeth and jaws are for crushing hard things like snail shells, and not for ripping and tearing chunks of meat.

Like I said, it's her monitor and she can ultimatly do whatever she wants. I was giving my advice from my personal experiences, which is what the forum is for, right? Have you ever force fed a monitor? Have you seen ones reaction to it? Do you own a monitor? I have, and that is why I answered. Speaking of that, please post a pic of your monitor, I would love to see it. This was the first post you actually wrote about monitors, i'm impressed! At least you haven't changed your name in the last couple days. Like I said before, IP's never lie. Just right click on your post and click view source. Your IP will be displayed no matter what your name is. That is how you were found out earlier. Good luck with your monitors. I would sign off FR, but we really aren't the same person, check the IP's.

-Jeff

"Your bullsh1t baffles us, and you have no brillance to dazzle with"

I wasnt trying to say anything about what you had done with your animal. I feel your pain, and Im sure we have much in common as far as what we've been through with our monitors. What was going on with yours anyways? Did you ever find out why it was having health problems?

On a side note...
Please, leave out the hostility. Its not worth the stress. Were all here because of a similar interest, and with that in mind, please can we get past attacking eachother? At least on my posts? Ive got enough stress in my life, with my daily commute, this is relax time! Lets please be more respectful of eachother, were not enemies!

I will, anyone else in?

All the best!

Michelle

oops I've been "found out" again. Sorry I just got bored with the green anole forum and decided to come here and pretend to have a monitor.You know how scarce they are and how difficult those monitors are to acquire, but I'm hopeful and maybe one day I'll have my very own monitor.

Here's a painting(I painted myself) of my future monitor and me enjoying quality time together.

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______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ " If you can't dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with bullsh1t"

Dont get mad, please. Can we just let this one go? Its not worth getting upset about. Lets all try to relax for a bit, and not say things that will get our bloodpreassure up!

Please, dont let yourself get mad.

All the best,
Michelle

No worries, Michelle. Thanks!
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______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ " If you can't dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with bullsh1t"

With the help of vets, I've done the nursing to pull lizards from the very edge of death. It takes a long time, because lizards are slow to heal, but the rewards are there. Sometimes the animal keeps declining and ultimately dies, but I believe it's worth trying a few things first. I've owned a thousand dollar (in vet bills) lizard, who is well and happy now with her original owners.

Roger

An ex broke her back! Thats why hes an ex! I could take him cheating on me, but that was where I had to put my foot down, and my fist in his eye! The one and only black eye Im personally responsible for inflicting on some one! I think he got off easy.

What had happened to the lizard that recovered?

Best regards,
Michelle

I am under the impression that monitors heal very very quickly. What am I missing?

I put in about 2000 monitor hours a day and have done that for over 12 years, some years way more.(conservative number) I bring this up because I simply do not understand how you could think they are slow to heal. You do understand that in all those hours I have had all sorts of events happen.

Which leads me to the term "fast" everything they do is fast, except two things, their eggs take forever to hatch. The other is dying, they simply do not die fast. They work very hard to live.

How could I be so mislead? F

Sobeks recent surgery, the vet told me that the stitches need to stay in for a month to properly heal. She was shedding the stitches off in 2 weeks from surgery, at one month she had a few attached to dead shedding skin only. Ive seen claws that were ripped completely out heal and grow a claw in a timor after 2 weeks. The most I did for him was put betadine on the toe while its bleeding and dry then straight back in the dirt he went. I know human females most probably wouldnt be ready to eat the morning after surgery to remove their reproductive system, let alone 1/4 of their body weight also from their abdomen, yet Sobek ate 2 chicken peeps right away. I saw an eye infection on a bosc my fiend has heal with just regular eye drops in 2 weeks or less.

I had a similar diagnosis with a BT (imported) years ago only the animal had a parasitic problem. After being treated he started down hill and the parasites multiplied like mad. He had a dehydration problem, and some trouble digesting because his basking temps were too low. Another that had a liver shutting down after deworming with a big increase in worm reproduction, with the same problem, too much ventilation, no deep damp substrate, and the meds made it magnify.
I dont know what caused your problems but when Sobek had her surgery the vet did a blood test because he thought it would be a good idea to get a reference on all of her organs and their condition (he supports the, rodent whole animal food diets for carnivorous reptiles idea), the results were a beautiful healthy strong young liver, with a low fat content. She eats whole animal foods only (like my other reptiles) with a very rare exception of once every 2-4 weeks a tiny piece of other meat (the size of your finger nail), thats all and she eats alot compared to what some feed. I dont like the results of varying a monitors diet from ground turkey, other meats, seafood, etc etc, it just seems to end up down the road with problems. I have very high basking temps (the size of the monitors body from nose to tail base, so they dont have impaction or fatty liver problems). An underground damp dark cool place helps this also.
Keep up working with him and I hope he gets better fast.

Hi Michelle,

I don't know if this has been gone over before, but out of curiousity, do you know (100%) that it is c.b. or is it an import?

Very sorry, hoping for the best

--Robert

I bought him and his sister (Ive assumed theyre clutchmates), in Feb at the size of hatchlings. I was told that they were CH, but I know that this particular store gets most of theyre stock in as fresh WC, and they have been known to be less than honest buisnesspeople. My bad for involving myself with them. I will not again.

In the future I will only purchase varifyable CBB stock. I dont want to support the trade of WC animals. -Im sure I do it many other ways indirectly, but I want to feel good about what Im doing in life, and the decisions I make need to leave me without regrets. So I will try my best to live this way.

His sister is not having any problems so far. She isnt with me though. I traded her to a friend a while back for a female Timor. She is very tiny, at maybe 24 inches. She has always been a highstrung, terror of a beast! She wont eat in front of you, and is very nervous all the time. Her brother was the exact opposite. He would do ANYTHING for food! Hes scared the sh1t out of me before when hes charged me for food! They are very much night and day. I may buy her back from my friend. However thats something Ill have to really think about. Its just sorta been at the back of my mind for a while. When Hewey gets better, maybe it would do them both good to be together?

Best regards,
Michelle

I just don't have anything useful to add.

With an import you have no idea on the history of the animal, while it may have nothing to do with the problem, it muddies the water.

As far as introductions go, they introduce their own problems and have risks, right now the odds are not in your monitors favor, so I don't think it would be wise to try anything anytime soon.

Sorry, good luck

--Robert

I'm so glad that it sounds like Hewey has a fighting chance!

I know how hard it can be to watch monitors when they're suffering and in pain, but kudos to you for trying everything you can to make Hewey feel better before you give up on him. I know you care a whole lot about him and won't do anything unnecessary--either prolonging his suffering or putting him down too soon.

Good luck to both of you.