Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hello,

I have a male Tokay Gecko, and I bought what was thought to be a female. I have heard that housing a male and a female can be done well, but when I put the "female" in with my male they fought and "she" tore a piece off him!

I was just wondering if from this picture anyone can tell me if this is a male or a female, this is a "female" that I bought: http://community.webshots.com/s/image1/3/77/8/94737708AoPUub_fs.jpg

Here is a picture of my male:
http://community.webshots.com/s/image1/3/94/55/94739455FsctQj_fs.jpg

Thanks for any help you can give
Kristen

Thats a female you bought....both of your pictures are correct. She may just be very agressive I guess.....How did you get such a good picture by the way?

Thanx for the response. I used a Sony Digital camera (2.1 megapixels, I think the model is DSC-P50. The tricky part was holding the tokays still! I have another quick question, I have heard that only males call, and that males and females both call. Do you know whether both sexes call?

Thanx
Kristen

Males make the mating call, it can be loud. Both will make a warning bark when threatened which youve prob heard seeing youve handled them. heres a link if you havent heard them and want to.

http://www.gekkota.org/html/sounds_g__gecko.html
-----
My posts and replies are my experiences only
1.2.10 Tokays
1.4.10 Leos(13 albino)
1.2.0 AFT's(amel male)
0.2.0 Stenodactylus Petrii(Dune Geckos)

Ok Thanks! Yeah I know the warning cry well, and I know the mating call also my male wakes me up at like 4 am every night!

Kristen

Sorry, I have to disagree with Dakman.
From your Pic I think its very likely that the firast animal is a male as well, even though not fully mature.
Females can have some openings in their preanal pores and these can be even relatively big.
But they never have secretions protriuding from thepores as they do inmales. In the most apical pores in your Pic I can see such secretions quite well.
Also size and location of tubercle scales at the base of the tail are indicative in that Pic.
So I am like 80% convinced that also the animal on the gfirst Pic is a male-a lateral and dorsal view of the head would further help my hypothesis.
Anyhow, you should seperate the two-once the new animal will feel at home, it will start to behave lie a male and in most cases this out of a sudden will end in severe fighting.

Ci@o

Ingo

Actually I didnt reply to the sex of the geckos. My first thought was they were both male and I still think the first one is male. I just didnt make a call cause sometimes pics are difficult and wanted to see what everybody else thought.
-----
My posts and replies are my experiences only
1.2.10 Tokays
1.4.10 Leos(13 albino)
1.2.0 AFT's(amel male)
0.2.0 Stenodactylus Petrii(Dune Geckos)

Yes..sorry, mixed you up with antonm.
And as you I stick to it: 2 males

Thanks very much for the reply! I seperated the Geckos as soon as they started to fight, so no serious injury would occur. Now all I have to do is figure out what to do with my second male!

Thanx Kristen

Here are a couple more pics of the gecko in question that I took very quickly this morning before the batteries on my camera died. They are not the best pictures, and if better ones are needed please let me know, I can take more when my batteries are charged.

http://community.webshots.com/s/image2/8/62/69/94986269OyyJKv_fs.jpg

http://community.webshots.com/s/image1/8/61/66/94986166mbiQub_fs.jpg

Cheers
Kristen

The head looks male, but I dont know about the pores still. I think ingo has much more experience than I do but I got a female that looked exactly like the one in the first picture and it was sexed by breeders. They also did not fight. However, he is right that there shouldnt be waxy stuff there.....

Yes, thats a male-and a nice one.
I would say approx 1.5-2 years old-but thats not too easy to tell.
Too me it looks like one of the indian specimens, which might not be true, since these are hardly present in the pet trade.
At least its not the standard phillipinian tokay.

Ci@o

Ingo

Thats interesting, how can you tell that its not a phillipinian tokay?

Kristen

As I said...just my impression but not very likely that the animal is form india.
Thats what IMHO is deviant from most Phillipine specimens:
-The animal has a lot of red
-The Y shaped mark on the head is very prominent and very Y like
-The backside of the head is framed with a non interrupted red band.

All these are elements which resemble the positions of markings in the closely related G. verreauxii group 8i.e. verreauxii, smithii and siamensis) and to my knowledge are often found in indian specimens.
Most prominent in the bangladesh subspecies azhari-of which very little is known
Also I had the impression that this animal is already relatively big and may still be growing-don´t ask me why I think so
But may still be within the normal variation of other localities.

Ci@o

Ingo

Holy crap ingo you should hold a seminar on tokays...did you get this all out of one book or just gather info over time? If you gota couple of book suggestions I would appreciate it. You could write a nice book on your own actually....

I was wondering where you got this info too! Any suggestions on books or websites?

Kristen

I admit that i AM writing a book on captive care of tokays and close relatives. Although I am pretty through with the general part, I am still searching the literature for more first hand information. I DO have a wish list of some US publications and any help (scanning, emailing etc ) from someone who has access to such things would be greatlyx appreciated.
Also I am still looking for some good colour slides of Gekko species. Mainly I still need good Pics of G. smithii and G. monarchus. But also Pics of hatchlings of G. siamensis and G. ulikovskii as well as mating Pics of all species and Pics of female ulikovskii.
Sadly at least the first edition of the book will be only available in german. But I may have a free copy for those people who would spend some effort with helping me. Sadly I do not have too many free copies (the project is nothing to earn much money with and I do it in my spaere time..but I DO have an editor), but every helper would be personally acknowledged in the book.
So If anyone thinks he has access to the papers I am looking for and is willing to help, I will IMMEDIATELY send him/her a list

Happy herping

Ingo

So my knowledge as it stands now is the compilation of relatively long personal experience, book knowledge, a lot of primary paper reading and a lot of discussions with keepers, breeders, importers and people who live in south east asia.
Its still full of gaps, but I am still collecting information and I hope once written down it will help those interested in keeping and breeding species of the genus Gekko.
And (hoping the authors won´t read here ) I think the only book available on Tokay care (by McKeown and Zavorski) is a bit on the short side and more sadly gives some information, especially on caging, which I woud not subscribe to-to say it the polite way.
So there is the need to have an english version as well...maybe I can convince my editor.

Ci@o

Ingo

...and I forgot: For the reasons mentioned in my original post, a good colour slide showing the head patterns of THAt particular tokay would also be greatly appreciated

I would love to help but, I traded that gecko yesterday for a female, cause I had no room to keep it unfortunatly. I wish you had told me sooner, cause I could have gotten some good pictures. I might be able to help you with some of the other stuff, what papers are you looking for, I have found a couple of journals on Tokays?

Kristen

My gecko is about to shed (he's pale and showing all the signs) so I can snap a few pictures after he is done. He is generally very pale sky blue and gray with bright red dots after his shed. A really pretty color which I think is not common from the tokays I have seen. I have not though about the different locations for tokays up untill you stated so in your post. If I can figure out how to use the micro function on my camera I will maybe submit a few pics to you which may be of use.

Hi Antonm,

I have plenty of Tokay pics and the only ones I stilll need are good snapshots of hatching or mating tokays and a Pic of one with the ancient patterns like on the Pics shown here.
Anyhow, thanks for the offer

Ingo

I have a mating pic thats pretty good in the photo gallery and a hatchling just breaking out of the shell also prob a couple others not posted. If any of these interest you I would be more than happy to let you use them. I used to have a whole series of that mating from when the male approached the female to when he cleaned himself at the end but lost them when my hard drive crashed. Anyways if there what your looking for youd be welcome to them.
-----
My posts and replies are my experiences only
1.2.10 Tokays
1.4.10 Leos(13 albino)
1.2.0 AFT's(amel male)
0.2.0 Stenodactylus Petrii(Dune Geckos)

Hi Dakman,

sounds good. But there is a but: My editor says, he can only use digital pictures of 2 megapixel and up in Tiff format.
Do your pics match these requirements?

Best regards

Ingo

Well my camera a 3.2 megapixel but records in mpeg. I thought I might be able to convert it to tiff with my software but doesnt look like it. I'm by no means a pc genious so I dont even know if thats possible.
-----
My posts and replies are my experiences only
1.2.10 Tokays
1.4.10 Leos(13 albino)
1.2.0 AFT's(amel male)
0.2.0 Stenodactylus Petrii(Dune Geckos)

Well if you have or know someone who has adobe photoshop you can change your photo to a TIFF. I am sure there are other ways to do it.. but was playing with aps today and saw that could be done on it. If you know no one with it, you could email me the pic and I could change it for you and mail it back...
Roxanne

Yeah I can pretty much do whatever you want with pictures as well. I'll convert in the extreme case. Personally, I have no idea what kind of tokay I have but I'll take a few pics and maybe you can tell me. If its something you want ofcourse the pics are yours. Im doing 3.2 megapixel ofcourse.

Hmm thats sad.
Anyhow, what appaers did you find?
I am currently mainly looking for these:
Butterfield, B.P. & J.B. Hauge. 2000. Geographic Distribution. Gekko gecko. Herpetol. Rev., 31(1): 52.

Chiu, K.W. & P.F.A. Maderson. 1980. Observations on the Interactions Between Thermal Conditions and Skin Shedding Frequency in the Tokay (Gekko gecko). J. Herpetol., 14(3): 245-254.

Hallowell, E. 1861(1860). Report upon the Reptilia of the North Pacific Exploring Expedition, under command of Capt. John Rogers, U.S.N. Proc. Acad. Nat. Sci. Philadelphia, 12: 480-510.

Love, B. 2000. Gekko gecko. Predation. Herpetol. Rev., 31(3): 174.

Means, D.B. 1996. Geographic Distribution. Gekko gecko. Herpetol. Rev., 27(3): 152.

Ota, H. 1989. Karyotypes of Five Species of Gekko (Gekkonidae: Lacertilia) from East and Southeast Asia. Herpetologica, 45(4): 438-443.

Ota, H., T. Hikida & M. Matsui. 1991. Re-evaluation of the Status of Gecko verreauxi Tytler, 1864, from the Andaman Islands, India. J. Herpetol., 25(2): 147-151.

Ota, H., K.-Y. Lue, S.-H. Chen & W.C. Brown. 1989. Taxonomic Status of the Taiwanese Gekko with Comments on the Synonymy of Luperosaurus amissus Taylor. J. Herpetol., 23(1): 76-78.

Ota, H. & J. Nabhitabhata. 1991. A New Species of Gekko (Gekkonidae: Squamata) from Thailand. Copeia, 1991(2): 503-509.

Sievert, L.M. & V.H. Hutchison. 1988. Light versus Heat: Thermoregulatory Behavior in a Nocturnal Lizard (Gekko gecko). Herpetologica, 44(2): 266-273.

Sison, R., P.C. Gonzales & J.W. Ferner. 1995. New Island Records from Panay, Philippines. Herpetol. Rev., 26(1): 48-49.

Stanner, M., K. Thirakhupt, N. Werner & Y.L. Werner. 1998. Observations and Comments on the Tokay in Thailand and China as Predator and as Prey (Reptilia: Sauria: Gekkonidae: Gekko gecko). Dactylus, 3(2): 69-84.

Toda, M., T. Hikida & H. Ota. 2001. Discovery of sympatric cyrptic species within Gekko hokouensis (Gekkonidae: Squamata) from the Okinawa Islands, Japan, by use of allozyme data. Zool. Scripta, 30: 1-11.

Veselý, M. 1999. A note on the morphology and natural history of Gekko verrauxi Tytler 1864 (Reptilia, Sauria, Gekkonidae). Senck. biol., 79(1): 95-99.

Zhou, K.-Y., Y.-Z. Liu & D.-J. Li. 1982. Three new species of Gekko and remarks on Gekko hokouensis (Lacertiformes, Gekkonidae). Acta Zootax. Sinica, 7(4): 438-446. (English Translation: 1989 Smithsonian Herp. Info. Serv. Nr. 77)

Stanner, M., K. Thirakhupt, N. Werner and Y.L. Werner. 1998. Observations and comments on the Tokay in Thailand and China as predator and as prey (Reptilia: Sauria: Gekkonidae: Gekko gecko). Dactylus. 3 (2):69-84

Tang, Y.-Z., L.-Z. Zhuang and Z.-W. Wang. 2001. Advertisement calls and their relation to reproductive cycles in Gekko gecko (Reptilia, Lacertidae). Copeia. 2001 (1):248-253

Do you think, you have access to any of these journals?

Ciqo

Ingo

Maybe its just easier if I tell you what I have access to!

1. Quantitative anatomical basis for a model of micromechanical frequency tuning in the Tokay gecko, Gekko gecko
Koeppl, C; Authier, S
HEAR. RES. Vol. 82, no. 1, pp. 14-25. Jan 1995.
2. A model of frequency tuning in the basilar papilla of the Tokay gecko, Gekko gecko
Authier, S; Manley, GA*
HEAR. RES. Vol. 82, no. 1, pp. 1-13. Jan 1995.
3. Advertisement Calls and Their Relation to Reproductive Cycles in Gekko gecko (Reptilia, Lacertilia)
Tang, Y-Z; Zhuang, L-Z; Wang, Z-W
Copeia [Copeia]. Vol. 2001, no. 1, pp. 248-253. 16 Feb 2001.
4. Molecular evolution of the cone visual pigments in the pure rod-retina of the nocturnal gecko, Gekko gekko
Yokoyama, S*; Blow, NS
Gene [Gene]. Vol. 276, no. 1-2, pp. 117-125. 3 Oct 2001.
5. Topography of the digital cutaneous sensilla of the tokay, gecko, Gekko gecko (Reptilia, Gekkonidae), and their potential role in locomotion
Lauff, RF; Russell, AP; Bauer, AM
Canadian Journal of Zoology/Revue Canadien de Zoologie [CAN. J. ZOOL./REV. CAN. ZOOL.], vol. 71, no. 12, pp. 2462-2472, 1993
6. A forebrain atlas of the lizard Gekko gecko .
Smeets, WJAJ; Hoogland, PV; Lohman, AHM
Journal of Comparative Neurology [J. COMP. NEUROL.], vol. 254, no. 1, pp. 1-19, 1986
7. Lingual and Biting Responses to Food Chemicals by Some Eublepharid and Gekkonid Geckos
Cooper, WE Jr; Habegger, JJ
Journal of Herpetology [J. Herpetol.]. Vol. 34, no. 3, pp. 360-368. Sep 2000.
8.Plastic changes and nitric oxide synthase induction in neurons which innervate the regenerated tail of the lizard Gekko gecko: II. The response of dorsal root ganglion cells to tail amputation and regeneration
Cristino, L; Pica, A; Della Corte, F; Bentivoglio, M*
Brain Research [Brain Res.]. no. 1, pp. 83-93. 14 Jul 2000.
9. Muscle activity in autotomized tails of a lizard (Gekko gecko): A naturally occurring spinal preparation
Rumping, JM; Jayne, BC*
Journal of Comparative Physiology, A [J. Comp. Physiol., A], vol. 179, no. 4, pp. 525-538, Oct 1996
10. Spontaneous otoacoustic emissions in two gecko species, Gekko gecko and Eublepharis macularius
Manley, GA; Gallo, L; Koeppl, C
Journal of the Acoustical Society of America [J. Acoust. Soc. Am.], vol. 99, no. 3, pp. 1588-1603, Mar 1996
11. Interaction between thermal environments and hormones affecting skin-shedding frequency in the tokay (Gekko gecko ) (Gekkonidae, Lacertilia).
Chiu, KW; Sham, JSK; Maderson, PFA; Zucker, AH
Comparative Biochemistry and Physiology, A [COMP. BIOCHEM. PHYSIOL., A.], vol. 84A, no. 2, pp. 345-351, 1986

Etc....

the list goes on, but most of it is pretty hard core scientific data, I dont know if thats what your looking for but if it is, email me and I can help. Most of these journals I can get online, but some are in periodicals which will take me time to get, so if you really want em it may take a bit for some.

My email is kristenm40@hotmail.com
Kristen