Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Is there a sure-fire way to tell a young Gopher Tortoise from a young Russian or Desert tortoise? I fear that a tortoise for sale at a pet store I visited recently is a gopher, and they are endangered and illegal to sell or collect, so I want to know for sure before I say anything.
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1.0.0 Thamnophis proximus
0.0.3 Ambystoma tigrinum mavortium
0.1.0 Graptemys ouachitensis
1.0.0 Chrysemys picta

Hey- here's a caresheet that shows a picture of a hatchling. http://www.chelonia.org/Articles/Gpolyphemuscare.htm
Please reply back your conclusion. Thanks. Brooks

It is hard to tell using that particular photo, as the tortoise at the store is a little larger, and much, much dirtier and very scuffed up. Other pictures I have found online are still leaving me inconclusive. Dirty scuffed up Russians look a lot like dirty scuffed up Gophers as far as I can tell. There is no label on the tortoise and I was told by someone at the store that it was a Gopher, I just didn't believe them at first, and didn't mention that I thought they were endangered. Is the sale of Gophers legal anywhere? Can't be? I was hoping to receive an informative response (much like the link to a photo - thank you) and not a post ripping on me, like the second post. Quite frankly, I believe in laws, and the attitude that "what another does with a turtle/tortoise is his/her own business" is the exact attitude that leads to species becoming endangered. I will keep looking.
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1.0.0 Thamnophis proximus
0.0.3 Ambystoma tigrinum mavortium
0.1.0 Graptemys ouachitensis
1.0.0 Chrysemys picta

It also leads to open communication which is a necessity if you wish to have any chance of influencing the person who is selling the animal.
Here's how it works...
Scenario 1... You can't Sell that animal, its illegal and immoral... (Dealer) FO and mind your own business...
Scenario 2... Hey that's a nice tortoise! That kinda looks like a Gopher tortoise. Did you know that they are protected throughout their range and there's a good chance you could get in a world of hurt if you're caught selling it. (Dealer) Thanks, I didn't know that. I'll take care of it. (even though he probably did and probably wont)
The point is that you can keep a dialog open and then the guy might get tired of listening to you or he might start thinking the customers around will start listening.
Ed

Well, apparently you feel strongly about this, wonder why???? Anyway, my plan was to speak civilly to the store owner about it, I am not an activist, and it is quite possible that the problem is not in the shop, but the source of the tortoise to the shop, but still a problem all the same. Granted I feel that anyone in the pet business should have adequate knowledge in terms of identification and laws, etc., I can understand a mishap. Don't assume I was going to walk into the store with the "scenario one approach", I have said nothing to suggest that. I was not planning on doing whatever I can to crash the store, and I wasn't planning any petshop owner genocide (as you suggest with your first post) I was really just torn between what to do about it, and "nothing" is not an option, sorry, maybe it is the split between collectors (which apparently you are) and field researchers (a group in which I classify myself, who work so hard to preserve species in their natural habitats) that is causing the problem here. Most animals I own have been adopted or rehabbed, and the rest of "my animals" are in the wild to stay. If you honestly feel that keeping and selling endangered species is acceptable, then I am not the Nazi.

Both of you have good points. . .

But actually, the lawful private keeping of endangered species is more than acceptable, it is sound species management. Participants in the SSP of G. radiata have successfully added and registered over 1,000 captive born animals in North America (mainly US) since Bill Zovickian hatched the first one in 1973. Results like this ensure the survival of this beautiful animal. Most go to private keepers to satisfy demand but also to someday propagate as well. Many private keepers have just as much time, resources and knowledge as do zoo's- many are even better prepared.

For the record, I believe, generally, any non-native endangered animal may be privately kept so long as it doesn't cross state lines for economic gain. The gopher tortoise is native and doesn't apply.

I can’t help but ask why do you wonder why this is an interesting topic for me?
I would like to think that it would be beneficial to accommodate the collector as well as the researcher. This way the animal ultimately benefits in the end. Give it a little thought and you can see the point.
I believe you started well but strayed in the fact of what you believe the store or storekeeper should know or do.
As far as collectors and researchers go, we are basically the same. I (as a collector) have chosen my path based on my passion for the animal and chose to follow that passion based on my terms. You (as a researcher) have chosen your path based on the terms dictated by your employer. They do amount to the same thing and that is the passion for the chelonians for whatever reason.
Ed

The Gopher Tortoise is a species of special concern in Florida. It has been protected for years. However, big land developers here in Florida are now able to pay fees and just plow the land under without regards for the Gophers.They are losing habitat with the home and building boom here. Most of us would like to see the Gophers as a Threatened Species with more protection. Until 1989 they were harvested and eaten! Your only allowed to have Gophers with a special permit and not allowed to sell them.I've seen hatchling Gophers and they do look like other baby tortoises until much older.

Hi,

I live in FL, and I know that it is certainly illegal to pick up a gopher tortoise and remove it from the area that you found it. Many people will pick them up and move them out of the road here, to a safer place, maybe 10 feet away, but if you put one into your car, you are breaking the law.

In my experience, and from seeing many gopher torts, they are very similar to russians. Here is a link though to a good site with pics of both babies and adults. I really hope that the store in question doesnt have a gopher for sale, and if so, I hope they pay the consequences. Keep us informed, and I hope this helps

http://www.nbbd.com/godo/ef/gtortoise/

Leyla x

The owner of the tortoise has all the required permits to legalize the adoption of the animal (He showed me, with inspector signature). It was not sold to him, and it is not for sale, it was wild caught by someone else who was going to release it in this state (Which is fairly far from natural Gopher habitat) and it was placed in the care of the store owner. We discussed the possible conflicts that may arise with displaying such an animal, and his inspector had verified that with the proper documentation, and not selling, the animal is permissible. OK, hopefully everyone is satisfied, I am, except for that darn person who took it from the wild in the first place.........
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1.0.0 Thamnophis proximus
0.0.3 Ambystoma tigrinum mavortium
0.1.0 Graptemys ouachitensis
1.0.0 Chrysemys picta

Good news! And awesome that you got the story FIRST before you went in there guns - a - blazin' and condemning a person who was doing everything the right way.
Always best to get the facts first.

Good Job.

Steve

You might ask the store owner to make a sign for the torotise - he can be helping conservation that way, by showing that you're not supposed to remove them from their habitat. Plus, people would be less likely to call the authorities on him if they know the story up-front.

The gopher tortoise is not federally protected, so simply having one outside of its natural range is not a crime in and of itself. I had to call USFW and Florida Fish and Wildlife about an issue, and that is what they told me.

Katrina