Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I've advocated for some time that we (Dry community) should take the time to document the lineage of our respective animals. No harm no foul, let's just let the chips fall where they may in the interest of being successful as a community.
Else we run the risk of going the way of other breeders.

Recognize the value of some animals will go up while others go down but if we're all in this for the animal rather than the profit it really shouldn't matter.

Thoughts?

Regards,
Jeff Nichols

If wish I could agree with your statement about being for the animal...But I know (unfortunatly) too many people in this business that are Strictly in it for profit. I do advocate breeding records to keep track Particularly of Hybrids as they are the greatest danger to keeping pure species bloodlines safe. (though if you bring this up you just start another war like what was on the kingsnake forum).
Frank

This really should happen as best we can...

and, yes for the benefit of the animals...particularly to limit
excessive inbreeding in couperi and erebennus.

There are not many bloodlines out there.

Here's the problem:

Most of the captive eastern indigos are cb for many generations. They are traced back to animals taken from the wild from FL before 1971 when FL listed this animal as threatened. Back then...private keepers simply did not keep locality records, linage data...etc.

The remaining captive animals are traced to stock from zoos/ wildlife centers etc..(the stock came from confications or injured animals that were brought for rehab...so no local info is usually avaiable.)

So...bottom line is...ask an indigo breeder where his linage is from and the best he usually tell you is the guy he got his stock from and maybe the guy who produced the parents...but no one really knows the original linage.

So...the best we can do is try not to breed animals we KNOW are closely related.

I would guess the same would hold true with erebennus...as there are only a few folks working with them, and you can no longer take new stock fom the wild.

Dean, I am in complete agreement with you. I base my breeding on where the animals' original breeders came from and from there, try to keep bloodlines as separate as possible. Perhaps some scale clippings and DNA tests between wild populations and captive populations could bring some answers and may be worth consideration and something I am looking into.

On a sidenote, anyone who says that couperi breeders are in it for the money are absolutely CRAZY. And although the prices of a hatchling my fetch a decent buck, it is far negated by the amount of time, energy, feeding costs and other associated costs that goes into keeping and breeding this species successfully. Most of the folks that I know who are working with couperi are doing it because it is the culmination of a lifelong dream for many of us...in short, it is an honor and privilege to be able to work with such an incredible animal. The same, I am sure, could probably be said for folks who work with other drys.

I agree, and I think we should start with what we know. For instance, I know my female erebennus came from Deano and my male came from Carl (Dryguy). So the way I'll track mine is DA x CG, then the babies will be A/G stock. My female's specimen number is DCEF01DA, the male is DCEM01CG, the offspring will be DCExxxA/G. IF I got another female Tex from, let's say Chuck Elliott (just an example..), her number would be DCEF02CE. The offspring from her and my male would be DCExxxG/E. That way I can always tell from the specimen number what the lineage is. I do all of my breeding projects this way. Of course, there is an assumption (unavoidable) that Dean's stock and Carl's stock are not directly related. I will never do true F1 breedings (sibling x sibling) or Parent x F1. If I had 2 females, and 1 male, I might consider breeding a male from one clutch back to the other parent female.

As far as hybridization or intergading, that is something that I would never even consider, especially with Drymarchon. If I'm not reasonably sure that the bloodline is as pure as can be expected, they will not be bred. In some cases, I'm not sure it really matters much. For example some of the "Blacktails" that are out there (I have a couple), are most likely an intergrade between melanurus and unicolor anyway. They are more like Browntails. Still, I will stick to breeding the ones that look alike. If they are Browntails, I will breed them with Browntails and call the babies such. In that case, I will just say that I am unsure of the lineage. As far as crossing a Texan with a Uni, or Texan with rubidus or anything like that...it should never happen.

I agree heartily. It would be an absolute abomination to hybridize or cross the different locale types of Drymarchon. The VAST majority of people that TRY to produce Drymarchon in captivity are definetly NOT in it for the money.GOOD breeding results are WAY to inconsistant to merit this cross section of the hobby as a money making venture. Witness the litany of Couperi breeders that didnt produce ANY young this year at all. Things like this dont spell well for financial investment at all.

Dean brought up a good note earlier, and was surprised at the lack of reaction about his gopher tortoise/conservation post that he received on the Tortoise forum. Rather than bash that forum, I will say that the reason that the people HERE are so passionate about this subject is that we understand the relevance and potential impact it has on, not just our beloved DRYMARCHON, but a whole host of animals, and an entire biome. I'm proud/glad to be part of a group of people that care about more than just what new moprh they can produce, but cares about the conservation of an ever shrinking wildlife ecosystem.You folks here, whether new or old timers, make a huge difference. Thanks for shareing.

Sincerely,

Fred Albury