Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Cross-posted---
The Hillsborough County Commission (Tampa) will discuss ways to ban reptiles and exotic pets tomorrow, Wednesday, October 15, 2003. The matter is scheduled to be brought up at 10:15 am. The ban was publicized only 24 hours prior as far as I know. This ban which is specific to stop the breeding and selling of exotic pets is being talked about as a template for the rest of Florida. It is designed by the Commission and various Humane Society, Animal Rescue, and County Animal Control Persons to circumvent the Florida State Permits that Reptile Persons and other exotic animal people hold. They will also require warning signs in your front yard and a public list of all the animals you own which will be gathered by and for the the government. The meeting will take place on the 2nd floor of County Center, 601 East Kennedy Blvd. in downtown Tampa. The exotic pet ban is scheduled to be discussed at 10:15 am; however, I would get there early in case in case they try to run it through quickly.
May God help the reptile people in Tampa, the rest of Florida, and rest of the country.
Email : www.hillsboroughcounty.org

son of a [bleep]es
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Many feel that I need to be balanced with equal time. Wrong. I AM equal time.

-Rush Limbaugh, 1992

How'd it go? Just out of curiousity...
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Anna

Corns
1.0 Snow - Cornelius
1.1 Ghost(pastel) - Eek & Boo
1.1 Amel - Parker & Scarlet
0.1 Hypo - Nikko
0.1 Anery - Missy
0.1 Hypo Hurricane Motley - Cordelia aka Cordy
Boas
0.1 Columbian (BCC) - Bella
Lizards
0.0.1 Leopard Gecko - Leo
Rats
0.1 Dumbo - Dirt
Cats
1.1 Siamese - Blue & Fiona
0.1 Gray DMS - Druscilla aka Dru
Horses
1.0 Thourghbred (Hunter/Jumper) - Morgan's Majesty aka Cody

Was it passed or stopped like it rightfully should of been?

Putting a sign up is no big deal niether is the list of herps. actually you already have to supply a list of animals being kept when you apply for your license.

But the total ban is just crazy and all of this needs to be stopped already. The humane society should keep it's aim in the right direction. Like towards all of the dog's and cats that need good homes, and are out roaming the streets.

Please let us all know how it went over there.

Mr. Jody Pieper

THE TROUBLE WITH PUTTING UP A SIGN IS THAT IT MAKES YOU A TARGET NOT ONLY FOR THIEVES BUT ALSO IT IS A FORM OF DISCRIMINATION. IT WOULD BE LIKE HAVING FAMILIES WITH GANG MEMBERS OR WITH GUNS PUTTING UP A SIGN....The sure test of the unconstitutionalty of a law is to put the premise into a different setting.....If passed this legislation should be fought in court as exactly that.
Frank

I am President of the Marion County Herp Society up in Ocala, Florida. I did not hear anything about a possible ban on exotics in Hillsborough. This does not suprise me at all. Lately, alot of upset people have been trying to ban the reptile trade because of the Humane Society. The HSUS is only out to do this because of their idea of reptiles being dangerous and carrying various bacteria and it doesn't help when ignorant people allow their reptiles to escape like our wonderful Pine Island Nile Monitors we now have loose and thriving. Ignorance is killing the reptile industry in Florida. If we do not keep an eye on our own backdoor, laws like this can be slipped in under another topic and passed without any notice to the public. You see, you can't vote against it if you do not know it is happening. That is the sneakiness of the Humane Society of the US. All of Florida now has new permit fees that have been raised. Alot of extra money is now flowing into the Commission's pockets, one fee was raised 20 times the original fee! We should ALL speak up at once and BE HEATD! I will not post on my door a sign that says I keep venomous reptiles, nor a list of all my colubrids on my door. This is an invasion of privacy and will result in slander or harassment by fellow neighbors. If you want to sit by and watch, it will eventually get worse until they have their way. Which may be a world of puppies and kittens allowed only. Will we have to have permits for those too?

Paul Moody
President
Marion County Herpetological Society

I still feel it is not a big deal to post a sign saying I keep reptiles. I have a sign saying I have Dog's. It does not mean I will have dog nappers stealing my dogs. But thats just my opinion. If I was to worry about thieves there are plenty of ways to deter them.

As for posting a list of reptiles on my door thats insane and I didn't even know they suggested that. I think sending in the list of reptiles I keep to the Law enforcement like it is now when applying or reneweing your license is fine. I do not even mind the raised prices.

I do not like them telling me I can or cannot have. Thats just crazy and needs to be stopped. The only way to do this is to help educate the joe shmoes of the world. I will gladly help to fight these laws of banning rpetiles. I have already put my say down in other states but now in my state I will definatly do all I can.

"I have been raised around animals and now am rasing my kids around them, to take them out of my life would be like taking my life."

Mr. Jody Pieper

A sign is a form of Discrimination. It is no different then putting a yellow star on a Jew...or a scarlet letter on a adulterer. It marks someone who is different and makes those who would take offence at them aware of who to strike at. It is supposed to be illegal in this country......
Frank

I guess since I have to have a sign up stating I have dogs on my premises. A sign stating I have reptiles is not to hard for me to swallow. But I see your point.

And I still agree this banning of exotics needs to be stopped.

I agree with you completely!! There is no doubt that it is a form of discrimination, and, quite frankly, it scares the heck out of me. We are losing our rights on a daily basis. "Our" government has entirely too much control, and these blanket ordinances are sprouting up all over the country. I bet that none of these ordinaces are being passed by any Libertarians. They wouldn't stand for it!!

Nathan Hall
GECKOS UNLIMITED

np

THe webpage indicates that the Fish and wildlife had a written report and that they would continue on their plan for dealing with dangerous wildlife and were to report back to the county Jan 4, 2004.

http://www.baynews9.com/site/NewsStory.cfm?storyid=26132

http://docs.hillsboroughcounty.org/repository/00001/384/10-15agenda.pdf

It's about time. The rest of the country needs this to pass. Florida has too many introduced anoles and other exotics running around. I really don't care what anybody says. There is nothing wrong with the government taking more action toward regulation. Believe me, I like the herpetoculture, but Florida just isn't the place.

Your kidding. You think it is good they want to ban all exotics from Florida? Then it must be ok with you if they Ban them from the entire U.S.?? Ok so when they take your dog's and cat's, bird's, etc. you'll be ok with it too? Or when they decide to take something else or regulate this or that you'll bow down to them as well??

If your hell bent about the niles being lose, or the other introduced species. Then the answer to that would be education rather then a ban. What is here is here because we are banned won't help that situation. It may make it worse. The moms and pops that have exotics for the kids may not know what to do once the ban happens. They will get scared to be caught and may let everything lose. This would worsen the situation not help it.

There are plenty of responsable pet owners out there that this law will effect and it should not be made to harm them. That could fall under prejidism(sp). I have amstaffs so I know how that works. One pitbull makes a bad name because of a bad owner. Then the entire city takes it out on every dog that they feel resembles a pitbull. That is not right. If white guy with red hair shoots up a school should they then arrest all white guys with red hair?? I think not.

Your way of thinking is vary naive and vague. I wish people would think more into things rather then only skim the surface.

Sorry for venting at you but I feel very strongly on a topic like this.

I would LOVE to see cats banned! They do too much damage to wild songbird, herp, and mammal population.

That said, what is the point of keeping pets of any kind in our modern world? Mouse traps don't need to be fed and burgler alarms don't need shots. Electric fences protect cattle. And reptiles do nothing for people in captivity. Oh, I can see breeding fence lizards to studying lime disease or frogs for science/education/medication needs. But what do you herpetoculturists do for the animals? I laugh when private herpers say they are promoting conservation by breeding their animals. Let me ask you this: how many of you actually ship the offspring of your animals back to their native habitat? How many bearded dragons and blue-tongued skinks hatched out each year go back to Australia? Think all those weird varieties of corn snake and the leopard gecko could survive in the wild? Not likely.

You see? It's not a matter of right or wrong. It's a matter of wasting money on something that is, well...pointless. I invit new herpers to consider this point and take up worthwhile hobbies like creative writing, reading a freakin book, or watching birds or getting some exersize or working on a career in wildlife conservation rather than spending pots of money on denying reptiles their natural freedom and supporting a basically needless trade with no real purpose.

Find a new gig.....Your boring.
Frank

I mean, im a musician first and formost. I write songs and know what creation/production is all about. And somewhere along the line of listening to my 70s 8-tracks, the beauty of reptiles appeared to me in books and in photos. I keep 6 snakes now, and hope to make my collection grow. The problem with his point is that hes much too biased. I personally dont like animals as pets really, unless they are pythons. I REALLY dig pythons for some reason. Not boas, not colubrids. Just pythons. And I hope to breed my white lip or green tree soon because I know a)it wont hurt wild population in anyway b) they would all be sold c)I think they have something worth breeding over. Colours. Im not on the latest craze like some guys here, and thats where i agree with this dude.
I like money, but I hate what it does to things. This is why music sucks today; people want more money and sex sells. SO lets get an attractive chick to sing right? Kinda how these guys have to have the most attractive snake. 2000$ just for a boa missing pigment seems too far for me. I enjoy my pythons as pets, nothing more.
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Many feel that I need to be balanced with equal time. Wrong. I AM equal time.

-Rush Limbaugh, 1992

Just because you only like pythons that make the guy's point valid? You are still keeping reptiles, which he says is pointless and apparently wrong. It doesn't seem to matter to Vivarium why you have pets, just that you shouldn't because there is no 'good' reason to him. You also you say you don't like animals as pets except pythons...that is just your opinion based on what you like and it doesn't make it right or wrong just an opinion. You have a right in this country to your opinion but it shouldn't affect the rights of others. Besides if the anti-pet people get their way do you think your pythons are going to be the exception? That is exactly why we should all be rallying together rather than only being concerned with laws about our own areas and species we collect. The only thing that matters to me is that if I am a responsible owner I should not be punished and have my animals banned when they and society are not harmed by me keeping them. I have worked at shelters and for wildlife conservation groups and I can tell you that the injuries, malnutrition and disease I have had to treat in animals left to their own devices is far worse than anything my animals will EVER have to deal with in captivity. But you wouldn’t know much about it unless you have treated a wild animal for starvation, or being run down by a car or from nearly drowning in their own mucous from an untreated infection. These animal rights groups want to judge us but many of them never get their hands dirty so it’s easy for them to say life in the wild is better. How would they know? They take the worst-case abuse stories and blow it out of proportion so the average guy doesn’t know about the good side of ownership too and they never show how cruel life in the wild can be. I guess HSUS doesn’t have to tell us how cruel the wild can be anyway since what they really want to do is round up the pythons you have and euthanise (murder) them. I can get you a direct quote from their online newsletter stating that too. I could try to make arguments for why pet ownership is good but the simple fact is that I shouldn't have too. This is supposed to be a free country where people are free to choose how to live their own lives. This country is being destroyed by needless legislation to line the pockets of politians by groups like PETA and HSUS that have their own agendas and seem to know little of the truth. Sorry for the rant but I don’t see Vivarium’s point. I don’t see facts; I just see one guy’s opinion and that’s fine but I don’t see how any pet owner could support it.

Anna

np

Producing a morph boa would be like creating a hit song. You need to realize some people have herpetoculture as a business. Most barely break even. They love it, AND it is their hobby. So they get paid to do what they love. And when you produce something like an albino boa or ball, then you are better off. Why wouldn't they want to create a high end snake? Are you saying you would purposely create dull music that is just a ripoff of other music just because you love music or just play covers? Your analogy is too flawed.
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Andy Maddox
Houston Herp Key
The Reptizone

Burgundy baby, With your blue eyed soul, You play the hits and I'm on that roll, Capricorn sister, Freddie Mercury, Jupiter Child cry

I NOTICED YOUR SCREEN NAME IS VIVARIUM. ARE YOU AWARE OF WHAT GOES IN THE VIVARIUM? HERPS MOST OF THE TIME, JUST THE THING YOU SEEM TO BE AGAINST, SO WHY ARE YOU HERE ON KINGSNAKE TO BASH HERP KEEPING? DID YOU PAY FOR AN ACCOUNT TO POST HERE ON KINGSNAKE? JUST CURIOUS WHY YOU YOURSELF ARE NOT READING A BOOK OR WRITING LETTERS OR STORIES? VERY IRONIC THAT SOMEONE SO AGAINST THE KEEPING OF REPTILES OR CAPTIVE BREEDING IS HERE IN THE FIRST PLACE. IF YOU ARE NOT A HERP KEEPER, WHY CAN'T WE BE ONE? WHATS NEXT ON YOUR LIST? SHUTTING DOWN ALL OF OUR ZOOS AND LIVE MUSEUMS? ARE YOU ALSO A MEMBER OF THE HSUS? THERE IS A BIG PROBLEM WITH PEOPLE LIKE YOU....THEY THINK THEY KNOW EVERYTHING, AND MOST KNOW NOTHING.

dude, you don't need to get so hot. I used to be big herp keeper myself. reptiles are pain. at least dogs and cats canserve a purpose.

I now understand what the herp keepers are up against once again, some one does not like the idea of keeping reptiles for pates or for commercial brreding. So we should now ban it. Vivarium and his grunts now would like to ban cats. Next week it will be something else. I think that everyone has a right to like or dislike something, but to call for a ban on something because you do not like it anymore is ridiculous! Go post on the I hate everything forum. If you do not like herp keeping, why are you even here unless to only stir SH*T! If it stinks like it it probably is. And this post smells like it all the way. I feel all animals have a purpose. No matter what they are. So your remark about reptiles being pointless to keep or purpose less is absurd. I am very disgusted with the way people view animals and their worth.

In case you hadn't noticed there are a lot of pointless things in life that people pour big money into: golf, computer games, breast implants, lottery tickets, the newer faster car, a pair of shoes for every outfit, baby doll collecting, horse racing, model trains, fresh cut flowers, karaoke juke boxes, eating at a four star restaurant, scuba diving, season tickets, big screen TV’s, designer clothes, rock gardens, Disney world passes, wine collecting etc.

Faults and wrong doings can be found in anything if you look hard enough but because something is expensive doesn’t make it wrong. What you value in life gives it its worth. That is what makes us all different. That is what makes life interesting.
The fact is that these things are a diversion from the realities of life. If the only things that we could do had to have a point, life would be a stale existence.

Your point that because something is pointless it shouldn't be done, IS pointless.
Cat lover in Florida!

n/p
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

that was a kicka@@ post elliot and well said.

Of course theres a piont of keeping reptiles.
When i first got my iguana spike when i was 10 he use to be abused by his previous owner.He use to wip his tail bite evry thing run and chase after you or who ever comes in the door of my room but then he got nicer and nicer buy the month.But then one tragical thing happend that almost effected my life of rescuing iguanas and snakes and other reps.My dog killed spike my 2 and half foot baby iguana wha'l i was at cadets when my dad came to pick me up he tolled me i balled my eyes out i was devestated and it was just this year on the same day i got him the 28 of september 2000 and on the 28 september 2003 he was KILLED!sometimes i cry at night till this very day.

What if you just make the SALE illegal? I'm not recommending anything here, just bouncing ideas around. I'm considering breeding my mud turtles, once the MD regs are rewritten in the near future to allow breeding, because they make fairly good pets - small, easier to care for than most aquatics, don't beat the crap out of each other (at least my two) - and I want people to enjoy turtles. I know I won't make a profit off of them, and I don't want to make a profit off of them - I want people to have a better alternative to the sliders out there. It seems that people like myself and other concerned hobbyists that love our selected species would keep breeding for the love of the animals, and would share/trade/barter our animals with other hobbyists.

If you take the sale out of reptile breeding, there would definately be less reptiles available, but most of those produced would go into the proper homes rather than being cheap impulse purchases.

Katrina

By shutting down the market you are eliminating the hobby. As local laws against collecting become more prevelant, the species that are captive born have become more and more the supply line to the hobby. How many people do you think are going to produce animals for free? How many will import at their own expense? Captive bred herps are the future. They benifit wild herps by taking the pressure of collecting off them. Making collecting illegal would just create an underground.Also they give us a pool of specimens to (hopefully) replenish wild populations (and yes...My herp society is working on that project so VIVARIUM can deal with that...).
Also; pets have been proven to have great therapudic value with the elderly...Particulary with issues of loneliness and fading mental conditions. They teach children about the world and responsibility. VIVARIUM is a jerk... If he wanted to fight something...why not the construction trade that bulldozes billions of reptiles and other animals under earth so that homes can be built on top of them (ever see construction people check for anything before digging commenced?) VIVARIUM could improve the world with his departure from this forum, since he seems to hate us so much, but I think he is just getting off on the anger he is causing....Frank

Anna the reason I pointed out that I like pythons only was to show you that's the only kind of animal I will keep. But some guys go out and buy these expensive boas, or the latest burm trait. I like certain pythons. That doesnt mean im going to buy the latest craze in an attemp to make cash. Thats where i agree with viv, because it really truly is pointless. Its not pointless to keep animals you like, and wanted in the first place. But soo many times you see people selling the latest morph, KNOWING that some dick out there with stars in his eyes is going to try and by it, and breed it and make cash off of it. Look at guys like Bob Clark and dave barker. No offence, but they seem to be on the latest bandwagon too...."look at this striped blood" or bob with his albino retic. Big deal why dont they try there hand at breeding, i dont know, say olive pythons?? timors? boelens? Thats what we need more of- purist hobbyists. Not just guys looking to make a buck. I would like to breed my pythons for the experience. I would probably keep most of them and give them to some of my herp friends. I dont fully agree with vivarium, but you know what? You should need a liscence for reptiles of any kind. Bottom line. You need it for dogs, why not for snakes?
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Many feel that I need to be balanced with equal time. Wrong. I AM equal time.

-Rush Limbaugh, 1992

You really don't get what they are trying to tell you. You can't say one kind of snake is ok and allowed and another isn't. It does not work that way. I am licenced for venomous and I agree with that because there is a responsibility that goes beyond the norm. To have a kid with a garter snake be required to be licenced is rediculous but that is what you are proposing. One thing I learned early on. People do not value things they know nothing about, or do not come in contact with. How can we teach children to value herps when the onlty times they see one is in a book or in front of some scared ignoramus?
I have watched enough laws and restrictions fostered upon us by government "for our own good" to know that when you make a small limitation or a small law to control...they have a way of expanding into major ones.
I do not like the designer mentality or the poodle snake of the month crowd...but to protect their rights is to protect mine. A law that says they can't keep can be used to say I can't either. To agree to such legislation is to allow those who would take our rights away a foot hold.
A point to consider; The horse orrigionated in America. The first Americans hunted them to extinction for food. If the People of Europe and Asia hadn't domesticated the horse it would be extinct and the history of the world would be vastly different. The same holds true for cattle, sheep and a number of other creatures that we allowed to survive because we found a use for them and kept them. People like VIVARIUM are not paying attention to the what and the why of this thing. They think we are cruel because we keep animals. And look no further than their limited view of right and wrong. In a perfect world we would live with all the beasts of the field in harmony...That ain't how it is...
So you want to keep your Boas because you like them...Well the guy down the block doesn't like your Boas. Who gets banned? I know there are people out there who breed for the money...But snakes like; the Brooks King for example are almost extinct in nature and captive husbantry is the only hope for survival they have. Do you think people would do it for free?? Not many.
I have been involved with animal rescue all my life (out of my own pocket) and am currently involved in a project to breed certain native (LEGAL) species with the hope of being allowed to repopulate safe areas...With out the trade to help me obtain animals it would be an almost impossible task.
The bottom line is you do not protect any animal from the bulldozer by making it illegal to keep. That is where VIVARIUM is totally wrong.
Frank

Here in FL. you need a permit/license for venomous. Or if you are going to exhibit or sell you need a permit/license also. Heck even if it is just for pets you still are required to get a permit/license they just waive the fee is all.

Feel free to check out the fish and wildlife site for yourself and see the permits: http://myfwc.com/permits/

Sorry Tormato—I was mostly irritated at Vivarium and couldn’t see how you could support him at all. I don’t know that much about the really expensive boa and python morphs because I would never pay that much for a snake. Okay, maybe if I won the lottery or something…

We have one boa we keep strictly as a pet and my corn snakes. In the corn snake world there are plenty of people trying to breed new colors and patterns and I really respect the breeders out there. Maybe it’s because there is less money in corn snakes but the breeders I have talked to are so helpful to beginning hobbyists. They are involved on the forums and seem to care about people being responsible pet owners. I find the genetics fascinating and can almost see how creating new morphs can be compared with art. Andy (above) made a good analogy comparing breeding and creating music.

Obviously, there is a market out there for high-end morphs and this is a capitalist country. I have no problem with people making money off their reptiles. I do agree that if it is causing a problem with irresponsible pet owners then licensing is a possible alternative as long as Fish & Game does not discriminate me against simply for owning animals they don’t like as pets. I know that in some states they make the licenses next to impossible to obtain just to restrict anyone from actually owning the animal. I take good care of my animals and don’t have a problem with fair licensing and inspections…(but what is fair? I hate to leave that up to politians!)

I don’t really think the high-end morph breeders are the problem. How many times when a snake escapes and harms a person or another pet has it been someone’s $10,000 piebald boa? I doubt that happens very often. If you pay that much for a snake you probably know where it is. It’s more likely the person who caught a rattlesnake and kept it (then got bit), or I heard about a single mom who bought her son a baby alligator and didn’t know that it had gotten to be 5 feet long until it mauled her son. I think ignorance is often the real problem that we need to be concerned about.
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Anna

Corns
1.0 Snow - Cornelius
1.1 Ghost(pastel) - Eek & Boo
1.1 Amel - Parker & Scarlet
0.1 Hypo - Nikko
0.1 Anery - Missy
0.1 Hypo Hurricane Motley - Cordelia aka Cordy
Boas
0.1 Columbian (BCC) - Bella
Lizards
0.0.1 Leopard Gecko - Leo
Rats
0.1 Dumbo - Dirt
Cats
1.1 Siamese - Blue & Fiona
0.1 Gray DMS - Druscilla aka Dru
Horses
1.0 Thourghbred (Hunter/Jumper) - Morgan's Majesty aka Cody

I think one point he might have been trying to make, or at least one that I think about often, is how many "normal" phase, or at least normal looking, giant snakes such as Burms and retics are produced and sold relatively dirt cheap in the attempt to creat an expensive and/or novel morph? While the tiger retic is selling for big bucks, the normal looking ones are less than $200. I've seen normal phase retics sell as cheap as $75 at some shows. Doesn't that scare you that anyone on the street can buy a snake for $75 that will eventually grow to 30 feet? And a nasty disposition with it to boot? Ball pythons are a different matter, because there are still lots of beginners that want a small snake to start with, and I've seen lots of people as shows that want a nice but less expensive snake that were lamenting the lack of normal phase ball pythons. Plus, a ball python likely won't be making headlines when it attacks someone. The same can be said for corn snakes.

Katrina

Lack of normal phase balls? Don't know where you have been...Every show or shop I have been too has been overloaded on normal balls. Same with just about every site on the net. As for corns, I agree. Those things are so messed up now a days. So inbred. I personally will not touch the things. As for anyone being able to buy a potentially dangerous snake, how is that any different than anyone being able to get a gun or knife or something of the sort? Andy
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Andy Maddox
Houston Herp Key
The Reptizone

Burgundy baby, With your blue eyed soul, You play the hits and I'm on that roll, Capricorn sister, Freddie Mercury, Jupiter Child cry

Are those stores selling imported captive hatched or domestic captive bred ball pythons?

Two gentleman at the MARS Show were put off by the large number of expensive ball python morphs (MARS doesn't allow WC or captive hatched imports), and I know of a breeder in MD that has mostly color morphs, but purposely breeds a handful of normal color phases each year just so that there ARE still relatively inexpensive captive bred ball pythons if his customers want them.

As for the large pythons, well, there's a federal law that requires a waiting period (15 days in CA, while we're BSing), and a background check before buying a hand gun and in most states you have to register your gun with the state! Do you want to register your Burmese python with the state? Plus, if my neighbor attacks someone with a knife, I don't think the police will knock on my door to confiscate my knife as well as my neighbor's.

Katrina
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Posted by: snakeguy88 at Mon Oct 27 20:32:15 2003
Lack of normal phase balls? Don't know where you have been...Every show or shop I have been too has been overloaded on normal balls. Same with just about every site on the net. As for corns, I agree. Those things are so messed up now a days. So inbred. I personally will not touch the things. As for anyone being able to buy a potentially dangerous snake, how is that any different than anyone being able to get a gun or knife or something of the sort? Andy
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Andy Maddox
Houston Herp Key
The Reptizone

It still is not all that hard to get a gun though. Even with a waiting period and a background check. I mean, if I wanted to kill someone (this is all hypothetical), and I was 18, and I had a clean slate and waited...well, what is stopping me? And don't put anything past the authorities or government. Believe me, if there is a public outcry against knives, you will not have one very long.

But honestly, I have never seen a lack of normal phase balls. Every show or store I have seen (and many others agree with me) have a SURPLUS, if anything, or normal balls. In fact, most expos are just that. Balls, corns, kings, and milks. Fishing lures and feeders if you ask me lol. Andy
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Andy Maddox
Houston Herp Key
The Reptizone

Burgundy baby, With your blue eyed soul, You play the hits and I'm on that roll, Capricorn sister, Freddie Mercury, Jupiter Child cry

Do you know if most of those normal phase ball pythons are imported?

Katrina

Most aren't. Obviously some are, but the larger part are not. Especially at the shows, since most shows do not allow WC's. Andy
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Andy Maddox
Houston Herp Key
The Reptizone

Burgundy baby, With your blue eyed soul, You play the hits and I'm on that roll, Capricorn sister, Freddie Mercury, Jupiter Child cry

I think you might be underestimating the number of imported ball pythons out there. A lot of wholesalers still import. Plus, I've been to "captive bred" shows where the prices alone indicated "imported". Then, in PA and MD, we still have a LOT of "anything goes" shows.

Katrina

FYI, all of Petco's ball pythons ARE imported.

Katrina

I wouldn't know. I don't go to petco. Nor do I doubt theirs are. But almost any quality pet store will have CB balls for 30-40 dollars which is pretty much standard for a pet store ball. I don't underestimate it. There are PLENTY of cb balls at the expos I go to, and almost any dealer will have CB normal balls. For me this is EOD.
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Andy Maddox
Houston Herp Key
The Reptizone

Burgundy baby, With your blue eyed soul, You play the hits and I'm on that roll, Capricorn sister, Freddie Mercury, Jupiter Child cry

that's common sense for anyone who knows jacks*** about reptiles. ALL regular pet stores who originally specialize in cats and dogs and only offer a SMALL selection of reptiles are all wild caught. Petland and petco fall under this category. Not only are they wild caught but they don't even keep them in the correct conditions.

I think you make a good point abou burms and retics. The local reptile shop I buy my feeders from won't even sell burms or retics because they don't trust people to be responsible with them. He does take in rescues sometimes but works really hard to find them the right home. I do think it's scary that anyone can go to a show and buy a cute little baby burm (for about $35 here) and they have no idea how much of a commitment they are making. I often wonder what happens to those babies because honestly I don't know a lot of people that have a 15 footer living with them. I think inbreeding is also a problem not just with corns but with all captive bred animals (dogs, horses, etc.) I still don't agree with the anti-pet people it just goes to show that as pet owners we all have a lot of work to do to make the situation more ideal.
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Anna

Corns
1.0 Snow - Cornelius
1.1 Ghost(pastel) - Eek & Boo
1.1 Amel - Parker & Scarlet
0.1 Hypo - Nikko
0.1 Anery - Missy
0.1 Hypo Motley - Cordelia aka Cordy
Boas
0.1 Columbian (BCC) - Bella
Lizards
0.0.1 Leopard Gecko - Leo
Rats
0.1 Dumbo - Moon
1.0 Rex - Pluto
Cats
1.1 Siamese - Blue & Fiona
0.1 Gray DMS - Druscilla aka Dru
Horses
1.0 Thourghbred (Hunter/Jumper) - Morgan's Majesty aka Cody

But at the same time a ball python require certain responsibility and care. Just like I said before the person should responsibly decide whether the animal is right for them. The person in which I buy my herps from sells his herps for quite a bit more than they are worth. But he knows he does it. One of his ball pythons sell for a 110.00 for a baby. To alot of people that is expensive for a ball python. But he get's alot less idiots that have no intention of taking care of the animal purchasing them. These people just look for some cheap pet that they can purchase just so they can bring their friends in and say look what I got. im a bad ass now cuz I got a reticulated python. If you jump the price a little you get less people that are not qualified to own the animal to buy them.

You are perfectly correct on that. Ignorance is a major issue. The only thing I feel is that it should not be up to the goverment to make that decision on who can own what and for what $$$$. I think it should be up to the kid and the kids parents to discuss whether or not he is responsible and knowledgable enough to own the alligator. I also own an alligator. Alligator's are magnificent animals. They are VERY expensive to keep but at the same time the experience with them is rewarding to me. I also have years of experience dealing with them. I know when they don't wish to be bothered. I did my homework. It's just like being in school........You have to do your homework before taking the exam. The main difference is that the exam is gonna slap you eventually anyways. If you know that you are not capable of taking care of the animal and/or are not willing to provide it's constant upkeep and health check ups then don't purchase the animal. That rule applies to dogs, cats, snakes and even a goldfish.

1)they charge too damn much for them because they are exotic
2)a dog can get out and bite someone because most people are too careless to pay closer attention to their animals. That is how licensing got started mainly anyways.
3)you have to realize the reason in which they aren't as concerned about the reptiles (they are supposed to be kept in a cage) Dogs have more freedom that reptiles.
Your support for VIVARIUM's posts are not supported with anything other than your personal opinions.

I live in ohio. The only reptiles they require a license on are native species of reps or amphibians. I would agree with that law if they were wild caught herps. But if they are captive bred what difference does it make. It isn't effecting their outside life existence in any manner. They also passed a law requiring to get the animal pit tagged. You also have to have a ODNR officer come over to your house on a regular basis and check your collection. I am with a group called the national Herpetological Lobby.

www.nationalherplobby.org

We are newly formed by just a few weeks ago and we are just stepping up. Right now it is just a forum but we are adding on little by little. We are encouraging people from all over the United states to register (FREE of charge) and post their comments so that we can get an idea of other peoples feelings on the newer laws. We are trying to fight against people like you who decide that you want to rain on everyone else's parade because you disagree with something. It's your right to have your opinions but not at the expense of others which is just like anna said "The only thing that matters to me is that if I am a responsible owner I should not be punished and have my animals banned when they and society are not harmed by me keeping them". I am a responsible owner of my herps and provide them the most care that I can. I agree that they can get expensive. But that is purely MY choice and that is MY hobby. Just because you and VIV have separate opinions from the rest of us doesn't mean it's ok for you to think we should not own them. I understand that you are saying that pythons are the only animal that you will own which is fine. But I feel that breeding in captivity is the only way that we will be able to conserve these pythons, boas, kingsnakes, milksnakes, etc. Because our goverments are constantly destroying their homes on the OUTSIDE which is where PETA members are claiming they should stay. You need to think more about your statements before making them if you mean to say something else.

Many hobbyist in MD produce animals just for the joy of it. I've bred African clawed frogs just to see if I could do it. I stopped breeding them because I couldn't find enough quality homes for the ones I'd produced. No profit there!

Katrina

I aplaude your effort! But keep in mind that the frogs you bred (or their parents)came from a Breeder/importer. If this guy had his way, you would never have had the opportunity.
Frank

Look folks, I never said reptiles should be banned. i was just pondering why people keep them. They really don't serve any purpose, but if you want to buy them, that's fine. Spend your pay check how you like, it's none of my business.

And i never said people should bae cts either. I'm allergic to them, and dogs anoy me, but I don't think they should be wipped out or whatever.

But i will stand my one comment: preeding wierd varitons of herps is not a conservation measure. Breeding bug-eyed rat snakes or yellow bearded dragons for "conservation" makes about as much sense as breeding poodles or chiwawas (spelling, to lazy to look it up) to preserve the genetic diversity of wolves.

Dude I think you would seem alot smarter if you didn't say anything all. Reptiles may not serve a purpose to you. You are one of these people that just buy things like an alligator so you can look tough in front of other people. Not just because you have an interest in them and would like to learn more about them. I own quite a few herps and I started off with them mainly because I enjoy learning about them. I enjoy cats and dogs but quite honestly they bore me to a degree. They are FAR too common. Everyone and their mother has a dog. Everything there is to know about them is plain as day. Reptiles on the other hand is still up for debate and study. Some people have a keen interest for reptiles. You might as well become a PETA member. As far as I am concerned they can all go to h*ll. I too believe that everyone has a right to their beliefs. I don't think they should use their beliefs to put out everyone else just because they disagree with it. If dogs annoy you, don't get one. If you dont like cats because you are allergic to them, then don't get one. If you don't see the point in keeping herps. Then blow your money on a stripper or something and quit bothering everyone else that has a similar interest.

Your either Fish and Wildlife or an anti-pet activist trying to start trouble, or just plain a jerk who's getting off on yanking everyone's chain...Sorry...No real American campaigns for more government control an anything that affects their own hobby. TROLL!
Frank

n/p

...that having animals that arent native to an area runnning around isnt the worse thing that could happen (in the governments eyes). Im sure the government could care less about that sort of thing happening to wildlife. Okay, so some dude lets out a couple of monitors. By the time they multiply in numbers to really whipe out an entire species, the possibly whiped out species is going to have figured out a way to have survived in the first place. I also think its quite contradicting that the government would care so much about saving wildlife seeing as they have no problem cutting down trees and paving way for a new store, yet they would seem so concerned about the eco system. Bull[bleep]. This isnt about banning reptiles. Its about greasing each others palms. Its all about popular vote, and whos paying who. I dont really care if they ban every reptile in the world here in the US, because I'll just move. Mexico maybe? I dont know. Some place where the economy is stable and reptiles are legal. America isnt that great, and im sick of every one being so star struck around here. Why cant we be more like sweden?
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Many feel that I need to be balanced with equal time. Wrong. I AM equal time.

-Rush Limbaugh, 1992

I disagree with the part about introduced species not being able to wipe out native species by the time they multiply in numbers. Look at cane toads/bullfrogs. Look at rats. Look at almost any introduced species. No animal can adapt quickly enough to outcompete the new competitors. As for you just getting up and moving and not caring what the nation does, good for you. For those of us that can't move, we appreciate the support of our ideals. And besides, Mexico is getting tougher. Someone posted on "another forum" that you aren't even allowed to touch the reptiles there anymore without committing a crime. The only way we can stop this is to fight it. They already tried it once before if I remember correctly a few years ago (but that was on a greater scale too I believe). Instead of saying "Ah, to hell with it!" why don't you get out there and try to educate people. Try to make things better. Try to stop the ignorance. If not, you would be better off in Mexico anyway.
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Andy Maddox
Houston Herp Key
The Reptizone

Burgundy baby, With your blue eyed soul, You play the hits and I'm on that roll, Capricorn sister, Freddie Mercury, Jupiter Child cry

I never said there was anything wrong with keeping reptiles. It's not crime or bad. I just don't see the point of it. What's so fun about it? I just laugh wehn people say they are promoting conservation through breeding reptile populations in captivity that NEVER RETURN TO THE NATIVE HABITAT.

As for the earlier comment about zoos, well, they at least have an educational theme.

But there is one thing I stick to: pet stores are, 90% of the time, nothing but trouble when it comes to herps. I don't care what anybody says.

Well what is so fun about playing music? What is so fun about going on an online forum? Why do people do what they like to do? And since it seems people think keeping pets is not natural, what is natural about the way humans act? We defy most of nature's laws.

As for petstores being trouble, I have to agree there.
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Andy Maddox
Houston Herp Key
The Reptizone

Burgundy baby, With your blue eyed soul, You play the hits and I'm on that roll, Capricorn sister, Freddie Mercury, Jupiter Child cry

As someone who uses snakes to teach children about the balance of nature and ecology...I disagree with your view. I also belong to a society that is breeding a species (eastern Hognose) that has diapeared from our area, thanks to the introduction of Bufo marinus-in the hopes that the state will eventually allow us to reintroduce them. I am allergic to cats, so my fish and my snakes are my pets...and far less of a pain (except when the goverment interferes and tries to restrict me.
Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

I mean we could fight these laws. But they keep popping up. Music and herps are my number one concern. If i have to keep fighting then id rather just pack my bags and leave. I know you want to fight, but whats the point anymore? You know some retarded politician whos daughter got bit by a snake is going to always be there to propose another BS bill/law. My family is probably moving to MA soon, and I just read that it is unlawful to keep GTPs, which i own. How can I fight that? Its already set in stone. This country is already full of crap anyway. Its too late. You can buy cigs, and alcohol, and guns, and, and knives and all these other harming things, but you cant keep certain reptiles in a particular state for what reason exactly? Im sure this isnt helping anyone, but my solution is simple; get the hell out. Or just find the state thats doesnt care, like montanna I guess. But even they will find a way to pass some bill in 25 or so years right? Then what do i do? Fight alone because theres not many herp friendly people in montana due do its desolation? And lose and have to relocate over and over? Popular voice isnt as strong as you thing it is. I have a feeling once they ban all they can ban, they will have an uprising in the government, or some kind of overthrowing! Think about what all the millions of smokers will do when they ban cigs! This country has a lot to think about cause i think people will eventually snap man.
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Many feel that I need to be balanced with equal time. Wrong. I AM equal time.

-Rush Limbaugh, 1992

This may not make sense to you...But if you don't fight...You lose. If you fight and lose, you at least have the peace of mind that you tried...instead of running away. It's not in me to run...it's that simple.
Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

although the word responsibilty is a touchy word/subject to many people. I oppose a ban such as this, but Frank, in our earlier disagreement on the venomous forum I told you it could happen even in Florida. I'm sure this bill will fail there, but what about the next one or the next. This bill came upon a black mamba bite being the straw that broke the camels back... I don't believe the rights to keep what you keep should be infringed upon. But..... I, you, we do not make the laws. So as a whole the entire hobby needs to take a responsibilty, breeders limiting large pythons etc. buyers not buying large pythons etc. venomous snake keepers keeping their own antivenom.
You don't want a sign in your yard that says you keep exotic animals. I wouldn't either, but think about it this way, everyone says that the way to stop this stuff from happening is to educate...right? then why fear the ridicule and harassment of the neighbors, why not educate them?
responsibilty.. why not have a license everywhere for any animal.. take an educational course that tells you how to not create an aggressive dog, how to not get killed by an 8 foot Burmese Python ( as happened last year) how not to be bitten by a black mamba. How not to keep a Tiger in an apartment in NYC.
We have licenses to drive, should have licenses to breed
( people )
It (the hobby) needs to be regulated. Hopefully we regulate ourselves.
The best way to not get stung by a hive full of pissed off bees is to not piss off the bees....
The best fight to win is the fight not asked for! And we ARE asking for this fight with the gov..
Quietly accounting for our own actions says alot to the people that regulate the laws!
Something to think about.
Taphillip

It really boils down to a very simple point. Involve the government in anything and (a) They will get it wrong. Kind of like (expecting an ape to repair your motorcycle). (b)They will use it to take away more freedoms. It is the nature of govrnments to create legislation to justify their existance as well as to achieve greater control (for our own good...They say). The only possibility for avoiding the first(a) is if the legislators are educated in the field they are seeking control of. As this is extremely unlikely...I feel it is better to fight against that effort to control.
Posting a sign is the same as putting a yellow star on a Jew. It marks you as different and makes you a target for the predjudiced. I talk and teach about reptiles publicly...What is in my home is secure...And my business. The bill in question by the way was rejected by Fla game and fish as Unnecessary as we allready have licencing for potentially dangerous animals and they felt the existing law was adequate. there still is a little sanity here. Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

Did you talk with an actual human being at the MA department? I've read the regs, and it sounded to me as if you can get a permit. I'm thinking if you talked to enough people, you could find someone willing to give a permit if you already have the snake, and could provide pictures of your set-ups. MA has minimum cage size requirements for most animals.

Katrina

It seems many states also have loopholes for new residences that already owned the animals, providing you can prove you already had them. You can do it in California with some species, so it's worth a shot, isnt it? Andy
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Andy Maddox
Houston Herp Key
The Reptizone

Burgundy baby, With your blue eyed soul, You play the hits and I'm on that roll, Capricorn sister, Freddie Mercury, Jupiter Child cry

...because I have one GTP. Sure, i might get away with that one. But I want more, and I plan on breeding them. How am I going to breed my one GTP if thats the only one I can keep? GTPs are quite lucrative, so there goes that idea. Ive tried to call all 5 wildlife managers today, but none picked up. Thanks for you convern, but I would like to know why GTPs and ETBs are BOTH unlawful. Happy coincidence that they just happen to look the same??? They are not rare, and not dangerous, so why the hell are both of those animals unlawful?
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Many feel that I need to be balanced with equal time. Wrong. I AM equal time.

-Rush Limbaugh, 1992

Do they band other species of boids? That is certainly a good question to ask. I personally am from the south, so I know less about laws from up there than just about anyone else. Just another reason to dig into why and then try to fight it. Andy
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Andy Maddox
Houston Herp Key
The Reptizone

Burgundy baby, With your blue eyed soul, You play the hits and I'm on that roll, Capricorn sister, Freddie Mercury, Jupiter Child cry

I'm certain you had a point when you awoke this morning - obviously it was on your head.

My advice to all where you are concerned is to ignore your misinformed 'opinions' entirely. Eat your Wheaties kid and when you can join the rest of us at the "big-people" table, I may be more inclined to listen.

Sincere apologies to all who might be offended by my offensive reaction to this offending offender.
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Who is like Set...

1.1 Vietnamese Blue Beauties
2.0 Taiwan Beauties
0.2 Cave Beauties
0.1 Bull Snake
1.0.0 Argentine Blk & Wht Tegu

;^)
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Who is like Set...

1.1 Vietnamese Blue Beauties
2.0 Taiwan Beauties
0.2 Cave Beauties
0.1 Bull Snake
1.0.0 Argentine Blk & Wht Tegu

a
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Andy Maddox
Houston Herp Key
The Reptizone

Burgundy baby, With your blue eyed soul, You play the hits and I'm on that roll, Capricorn sister, Freddie Mercury, Jupiter Child cry

Vivirium,
It sounds like a communist state like Russia or China would be more suited for you. We don't need people like you enjoying the freedoms that you don't seem to apperciate. So why not do everybody a favor and move to a country better suited to your style of goverment. One where they tell you what, when and where you can do what you do! Dale

Muhuhaha! One day I will rule the world, and all of this "herping" will be finished, along with the following sniveling little activities the organism on this planet enjoy:

Breathing
Metabolism
Photosynthesis
DNA replication

To some people herping is as important as breathing.

Yeah, to loosers!

Does anyone that attended the meeting know what happened????

http://docs.hillsboroughcounty.org/repository/00001/404/Recap 10-15 BOCC Regular Meeting.pdf

scroll down to page 6, STAFF REPORTS. apparently some guy named Bill Armstrong and members of the FWC are to prepare a report and present this report in January. I live in North FL and this is stupid. if hillsborough county passes this law, then it may well affect all of FL. There is a reptile expo scheduled for the Tampa area on Nov. 1st and 2nd, I cant go, but hopefully there will be a huge turnout and maybe a petition should be passed around fighting this proposed law.

There is a state law that pretty much says the following:
All Wildlife is in the jurisdiction of the STATE. Not city, county, town, village, etc....
I spoke this for many hours with my local Fish and Wildlife inspector. They can pass ordinances etc, if you violate them, they will ticket you but you will appeal since youll obviously lose.
You appeal three times and then it is taken to state court where youll win and you can counter sue for attorney fees.
They cannot win in state court as by state law and jursidction, all wildlife is governed by the state. He did mention though that it would have a much much better chance in court if you have the epb permit which is the license to posess reptiles for sale, exhibit, etc.
You may get a city ordinance banning exotics, but in court(which has happened several times, and we won) we can fight it to the top where the real truth comes out and your able to do what you want as long as it doesnt harm the public, etc.
Mike
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"Quality isn't Quality without customer service so I guess I sell quality"

np
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Andy Maddox
Houston Herp Key
The Reptizone

Burgundy baby, With your blue eyed soul, You play the hits and I'm on that roll, Capricorn sister, Freddie Mercury, Jupiter Child cry