Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I have another question! =) I will possibly be gaining access to a 55 or 50 gallon aquarium, and will be putting my frogs in it. However, I'd like to get other cool frogs for it too, in particular Tiger Leg running frogs, barking tree frogs, and a banana reed frog. Nothing large though, like a whites or dumpy. (I've got 2 adult male Red Eyes and a baby Green TF that I morphed from a tadpole, right now.) I'll soon be getting another RE (hopefully!) too. Has anyone else had luck mixing species before? I know you're not supposed to do it, but I don't have room for a bunch of separate tanks, and my frogs seem to love hanging out with eachother.
~Laura
One other thing, would small geckos be able to go in with them? I've fallen in love with a pair of velvet geckos, and would love for them to go in the tank too.

It is never a good idea to mix species. Too many chances for parasite exchange and stress. Each species has different care requirements and they all need their own territory. Not to mention that all amphibians are toxic in their own ways, which could very well cause a problem in itself.

Yes, there have been some who have had success keeping community tanks, but we are talking LARGE enclosures and proffesional care. However, even with the best care possible, many of the occupants of such community tanks don't truely live out their full lifes potential.

So in the end, your best bet is to stick with one species per enclosure. Especially when there are REs involved... they are so very sensitive that even the slightest shift in stress can kill them.

Think long and hard about your plans and whether or not you are truely willing to take the chance of loosing any of your frogs and the money you've spent on them.
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Heather

I am close to getting a degree in animal science and have studied many different kinds of animals as well as microbiology. I agree that mixing frogs is not a good idea, but not so much due to parasite issues. What is the difference between introducing a new frog of the same species into an established colony and introducing a compatible frog that has been quarentined. You can introduce parasites just as easily with a frog of the same species as one of a different species. PArasites are generally not species specic.
Frogs usually can't be mixed because of size, compatibilty and environmental issues. Frogs will attempt to eat anything that is remotely smaller than it and moves. My White's tree frogs see my hand move and will jump at the glass.
I am tired of seeing the same responses over and over again. They are reiterated form responses. No one takes time to consider the real answer they just regurgitate what they read in a book or have heard on this forum. There is no one answer to how a person should keep an animal. Each animal is an individual and should be treated thus. I have seen tanks of mixed species work beautifully for years. It takes a very careful blance and should be moitored closely but it can be done as long as the animals can tolerate the conditions and there is plenty of territory for everyone. I think people should be open more to new ideas on this forum instead of sticking to the norm.

Actually I think you'll find most parasites are very species specific. Except for many ectoparasites like ticks and mites, which have evolved to feed on a large number of mammals and birds, the vast majority of endoparasites are very species specific. Try sticking a dog flea (I know, an ecto..) on a human: it doesn't tend to last long. The vast majority of parasitic multicellular species (nematodes, tape worms, round worms etc etc etc) must find exact species host to carry out their life cycle. If you're talking about microorganismal 'parasites' then yes, the actual parasites themselves often have a more varied host range. The point is that parasites and their hosts are very finely co-adapted in evolutionary terms. If you put a coccidia strain from a North American Hyla and introduce it to a European Hyla, the chances are that the European species will not have the same defensive 'mechanisms' as the North American species (resistance to toxins for example), and as I'm sure you know, any immuno depression of an animal with an alien parasitic load is likely to tip the balance against the animals favour in its ability to handle the infestation. A microorganism in one animal that has evolved to form a mutualistic relationship, may turn out to be be a deadly parasite in another animal that has had the previous experience; which wouldn't for example show up in a quarantine period.

The point everyone is trying to make is that because amphibians, by their very nature, are extremely good at hiding any stresses they are experiencing (be it disease or attempted predation), we should try our best to reduce any possible cause of these; since we can't often tell for sure (unless you are an expert frog ethologist of course, but not many people are)

I did forget to mention about the quarentine period with even same species being added to a tank. Of course there should always be a couple months observation to be sure that the new addition is healthy before introduction. There should also be a fecal done by a vet to rule out any possible parasites or other illnesses that can be passed on to other tankmates.

I simply respond to posts with information that I have either picked up from my own experience or what other herp experts have shared with me.

Just trying to help a fellow herper and provide as much advice as possible to ensure a happy, healthy collony.
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Heather

when you say "herp experts", can you clarify what you mean.

What I mean by "herp experts" are people who are in the field proffessionally (Like two friends I have on line, one being in Chilie) or people who have had experience for many many years, successfully keeping and breeding.

As for those that I concider experts here on this forum... I would go with Colchicine all the way!!!! He's my favorite and has helped me to no end from the very start of my interest in the hobby!!!! I trust him full heartedly!!!
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Heather

Heather,
Thanks for your reply, I'm glad you weren't using the word expert loosely. I'm new to the forums and don't know the veterans, thus just trying to be clear on what's being said; what's inferred, what's opinons and what's stated as a fact.
By the way seeing your pics. posted awhile back is what caused me to get more involved. They were beautiful and Some of the others have posted great pics. You can't help but be taken by these guys/gals (referring to the frogs)!
Actually everyone on these forums are GREAT!
I have a 35 gal that I was going to put fish into, but now it is going to become a viv.
Thanks again, Lynn

You are most welcome.

Ilearned in the begining of this hobby to not use the word "expert" loosely. I did, how ever, read everything that EVERYONE responded with along with my own endless hours of research, Now I'd like to think that I at least have a good grip on what I need to know for the crotters *I* keep. I'm a pretty good source of regergitaion too, but I always try to only repeat information from reliable sources, ya know?

I've only been in the hobby myself for about 7 months. Started off raising a few leopard tadpoles on a whim after seeing them in the feeder tank at the local fish shop. (I used to keep fish... but they always died LOL guess they just wernt my thing) I LOVE my froggies though. They are so much fun and I actually enjoy the tank cleanings and the work and attention it requires to keep them happy and healthy. And of course, I love taking pictures of them!!! I have 2 cats and a dag as well, but I really thing that my frogs have so much more personality. You can keep a cat or dog happy with a bowl of food and a pat on the head, but a frog.... OIY! You have to really spend a lot of time and effort to make their lives long and happy!

I hope, one day, I can expand on my own collection (I'd really like a colony of Reeds)but until then I am content with the group that I have and the oportunity to help others who are starting off in the hobby. Not to mention... learn more and more myself as I go along!!!
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Heather

I agree with bgexotics totally, and as for "they (RE's) are so very sensitive that even the slightest shift in stress can kill them."

Thats a bit off balance IMO.

IME, RE's seem to be a quite hardy species (i know most of you are going to disagree with me). Maybe not like GTF's, but it sounds like your saying as if one slight difference of degree of temperature or humidity is going to kill them.

Laura, in a 50g tank, ive seen lots of sucessfull mixes, but ive seen disasters aswell. You just have to do your research. I wouldnt mix all those frogs you were planning together, but maybe a small gecko might be fine. I didnt reply with detail before because i was in a rush, but imo, i wouldnt mix with velvets. Maybe Hemidactylus or Lepidodactylus lugubris would be a better choice, as they dont get very big.

Just dont do something drastic either...(like a leopard gecko with whites or something similar, etc)

Just keep in mind combination tanks require alot more care, knowledge and attention than single sp tanks. If you feel you dont meet these criteria, i wouldnt continue with your plan...

Hope this helps,

M.N
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Phelsuma Madagascariensis Grandis, Phelsuma Laticauda, Stenodactylus Petrii, Rhacodactylus Ciliatus, Eublepharis Macularius, Anolis Carolinensis, Agalychnis Callidryas, Hyla Cinerea, Mantella Madagascariensis, Dendrobates Azureus, Mantella AurienticaMy Email

Oh, and its a good idea to get only CB animals, as they adjust better than WC's,

M.N
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Phelsuma Madagascariensis Grandis, Phelsuma Laticauda, Stenodactylus Petrii, Rhacodactylus Ciliatus, Eublepharis Macularius, Anolis Carolinensis, Agalychnis Callidryas, Hyla Cinerea, Mantella Madagascariensis, Dendrobates Azureus, Mantella AurienticaMy Email

Forgot...

If you do get the 55 gallon, that's a good size for a small RE collony. You can keep 4 REs in an enclosure that size, possibly 5 but that may be pushing it a little.

Definitely no on the geckos though, their keep is way too different than frogs.

If you can't keep several tanks for everyone to live in their own enclosure, your best bet is to just stick with what you've got and don't add any more frogs to your collection until you have the available space for proper tanks.
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Heather

Not that this is the best idea for mixing different species..and I'm not really for the idea but they do sell cage separators or you can make your own. Another idea is to turn the one tank into separate tanks by using panes of glass and siliconing them into place to make two or three tanks out of the one 55 gallon....just an idea I'd opt for the second if any of the two were to be done.

This is an option, BUT... you can still have a mixing of parasites over the wall... especially with tree frogs. Plus, you'd want to use a colored or frosted glass or plexi so that the frogs don't see each other and help keep the stress down.
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Heather

I know for sure that any of the frogs I would put together would be parasite free. My REs I raised from lil guys, and have been nothing but healthy. I've had them for 1.5 years now. My green tree frog I raised from an itty bitty tadpole, he's now about 3 months and had been quarantined for 2.5 of those months. The tigerlegs have been at the pet shop that I work at since January, and they also are very healthy, as I've been keeping a close eye on them for the last 3 months. I for sure don't want to harm anyone, I've already thought about the consequences. My REs have lived with 2 other greens, with no problems. I had the 4 of them together in a 15 gallon tank. I know that's small, but it's densely planted with lots of sticks, etc. If they could be fine through that, and not be stressed at ALL, I think they would be ok. I've heard that REs are extremely difficult to raise from babies successfully, and I have to say I did a good job with mine. Now, the only problem is with the toxicity of the other frogs. That I honestly can't say anything about. I wouldn't dream of putting any fire belly toads or anything similar in there, that's the only species I've heard of that is really bad. I'll have to think about it some more though, as I don't want to do anything harmful to my bebes. We'll see how they do with their new woman first!
~Laura
PS~ Anyone with community tank frog mixing results please reply!

Please don't mix all those species! First off, it's definitely not enough space. Second, a White's (same thing as a Dumpy, btw) treefrog eating another is only one problem. The species you DO want to mix do not belong together. They live in different environments and under different conditions. Most of the animals are easily stressed and they really deserve better than that. Why compromise on the housing of three species in order to keep four species in the same tank? If you can't house them... and can't afford getting housing but can afford the frogs themselves, don't get them.

What's more is that a frog being captive bred doesn't ensure it not having parasites. Just feeding crickets can give parasites, and it's not uncommon. You don't know the conditions the breeders kept the frogs in (except the GTF you raised) and they could have all kinds of parasites. I just bought a leopard gecko recently from a very reputable breeder who I had to spend good money on for vet trips because of all the parasites.

Parasites spread easily, and, what you feed the tadpoles could give parasites as well. Blood worms and plenty of other worms are notorious for transmitting parasites, and the last thing you want to do is have stressed frogs sharing parasites because they're going to get sick.
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Got hips like Cinderella / Must be having a good shame / Talking sweet about nothing / Cookie I think you're Tame

As stated, cricket carry parasites, as do most any other food iten you'd offer. Plus the whole hummidity issue. Tigers do require less hummidity, geckos require higher heat. REs get a good deal larger than greens and once they all reach adult size, one day a RE could try for a greenie and end up quite sick.

I don't know the actual toxic level of each species, just that the toxins that they do have is stronger when presented with a stressful situation. Your RE may not physically show stress, but could release a toxin on the plant leaves and in the water dish that could cause the other frogs to become very ill, if not kill them.

I certainly know the temptation of wanting to mix. I, myself would LOVE to be able to look into one tank and see all those different colors and species!!! But when it comes down to it... it's just not worth risking the losses.

As for tank size, basic rule of thumb is 20 gallons for 1 and an additional 10 gallons for each extra tankmate. And of course, bigger is always better.

If I were you, I'd get the the 55 gallon and put a nice collony of 4 REs in it. Set it up all nice with a false bottom and a misting system then try my hand at breeding. Then I'd have separate set-ups of appropriate size for the others and just enjoy going from tank to tank! Call me crazy, but I really enjoy my tank cleaning LOL

You had mentioned a problem with space for tanks. I have the same problem. Right now I have 2 tanks sittin on an old computer desk and a third on a wodden TV table. But I will soon be going to Home Depot and investing in a shelving unit. It's just one of those industrial garage shelves. It's made out of really sturdy plastic and they are really quite stable. I figur 2 of them will give me a place to put my tanks and hopefully add a couple more tanks. The nice thing about these shelves is that you can bracket them to the wall and they don't really tank up that much space depth wise.

Definitely think it through well. We all just want to help you provide a happy enviroment for your froggies!!
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Heather

I think tiger legs need less humidity than other treefrogs...so that IMO might not work,

M.N
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Phelsuma Madagascariensis Grandis, Phelsuma Laticauda, Stenodactylus Petrii, Rhacodactylus Ciliatus, Eublepharis Macularius, Anolis Carolinensis, Agalychnis Callidryas, Hyla Cinerea, Mantella Madagascariensis, Dendrobates Azureus, Mantella AurienticaMy Email

They all need different conditions, really.

I think it's better to stick a house gecko in there than any of the mentioned tree frogs combined, but that would be a HUGE risk of parasites, so it's a terrible idea as well in this case.
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Got hips like Cinderella / Must be having a good shame / Talking sweet about nothing / Cookie I think you're Tame

I dont understand how you can say they werent stressed at ALL? Did they tell you that? it cant be true. some animals have different ways of exherting their stress. my chameleons for example won't show their stress until they are killed by it. my Whites tree frogs will show their stress by turning colors and shooting pee. My red eye will go nuts and just everywhere but near me. It depends on the babies themselves. Just because you raised them from babies(which i did with most of mine BTW) does not mean they care for you and know who you are. Frogs only have a medulla Oblongata and a brainstem,which controls their basic functions,emotions not included. sorry

I guess you're right, I can't say that they weren't stressed at all. But working at a pet shop and having pets my entire life, I know what a stressed animal looks like. And my REs have never shown any signs of stress. They wake up every night and hunt for food, have bright colors, shed regularly, are nice and plump, and even croak during the spring/summer season. If I take them out, they are very calm and don't jump away. (usually...) I understand that they don't remember me, and have no capacity to care for/love their owner. I don't think I ever even alluded to thinking that in my previous posts. They are in a 15 gallon high tank, and have had no problems. (That I can tell, of course.) I am not an ignorant person who knows nothing about animals, in fact I'm going to school to be a wildlife ecologist to study frogs. I appreciate all of your input, and will stay away from mixing species. I have wanted to try breeding REs, and now hopefully I'll have my chance. Maybe I can make some extra $$ for college!
~Laura

Sounds like a much better idea to me.

When I only had Green treefrogs and a Squirrel treefrog I didn't think mixing would be so bad, as long as the animals didn't eat eachother, but when I started getting more and more species and soon realized that very few species would ever be compatible to keep together. They're all so different and require different things, and stress eachother out! So, we assure you, this is what's best for them. And, yeah, now you can focus on breeding RETFs if you so choose to, although it is expensive to do.
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Got hips like Cinderella / Must be having a good shame / Talking sweet about nothing / Cookie I think you're Tame

You can't put the velvet geckos in with them.
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1.0.0 Normal Leopard Gecko
0.1.0 Super Hypo-Tangerine Carrot tail
1.3.0 More leos as of the 19th!!!!!! One more week!
1.1.1 Whites Tree Frogs
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