Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Kevin Barnett was nice enough to post THIS post on the boa forum. I thought it applicable to many people here. At the very least it is VERY disturbing.:

Kevins post:

Cross-posted---
The Hillsborough County Commission (Tampa) will discuss ways to ban reptiles and exotic pets tomorrow, Wednesday, October 15, 2003. The matter is scheduled to be brought up at 10:15 am. The ban was publicized only 24 hours prior as far as I know. This ban which is specific to stop the breeding and selling of exotic pets is being talked about as a template for the rest of Florida. It is designed by the Commission and various Humane Society, Animal Rescue, and County Animal Control Persons to circumvent the Florida State Permits that Reptile Persons and other exotic animal people hold. They will also require warning signs in your front yard and a public list of all the animals you own which will be gathered by and for the the government. The meeting will take place on the 2nd floor of County Center, 601 East Kennedy Blvd. in downtown Tampa. The exotic pet ban is scheduled to be discussed at 10:15 am; however, I would get there early in case in case they try to run it through quickly.
May God help the reptile people in Tampa, the rest of Florida, and rest of the country.
Email : www.hillsboroughcounty.org

As I said before, this is insane, and I hope is not a model of things to come fro all states.

Sincerely,

Fred Albury

There are some really scary people out there in positions of power....................Frank

but what's more disturbing to me is that we (herpers) are ALLOWING it to happen. These people that are trying to get these bans passed are vocal and organized. We are not. They are running roughshod over us UNOPPOSED!

In the state of Georgia there is not a statewide active Herp Society or organization of any kind to protect our rights, nor is there a national one that is geared to protecting the rights and priveledges of private herpers. That is sad and it will be our undoing, but try to get people involved to change it. Nobody has time.

If we are going to continue to exist, we have to get organized on a state level and a national level and fight back. We have to police our own ranks, because every time someone gets into trouble for smuggling illegal reptiles, possessing illegal animals, allowing a venomous (or large)animal to escape, it just gives them more ammunition to fight us with. And we aren't fighting at all. We have the animal rights groups such as HSUS and PETA against, and now the insurance companies are joining in.

Couple that with the fact that, except for small groups like this forum, we aren't giving anything back. By and large private herpers do nearly nothing to contribute to conservation efforts. That doesn't fare well for us either when we get to the planning table for this sort of legal action. It looks like all we want to do is take. We have to be able to show what we are doing to help the plight of the animals as opposed to just taking them from the wild and what we are doing to assure compliance with existing regulations.

Fighting is one tack, but working with some of the more moderate elements is another. If you can find some middle ground I think you will find some success. Just a thought.

Joe

That's true, but it's not the moderate ones that worry me so much. It's the rabid, radical ones. They are the ones that use half-truths and outright fabrications to get their agenda across and are able to convince the populus and lawmakers of their positions because no one bothers to refute them and make them prove their points with actual facts. If they go unopposed to the lawmakers and convince them what they are saying is true and there is no one there to say otherwise, the lawmakers don't know any better...they know zilch about reptiles and keeping reptiles. All they have to do is go in and say "They are depleting the wild populations." and "These reptiles pass deadly diseases on to children and pets." and "They are releasing non-native animals and endangering indigenous ones." and "These big boas and pythons are killing kids and pets." and "They are letting venomous snakes escape into the neighborhoods." and "They are always getting bitten by their venomous pets and costing taxpayers money."

The problem is that we don't have a voice to refute any of this, so if no argument is raised on our behalf, then what they say must be true, right?

If we could say:

"Look, our organization raised $x for this and that reptile or amphibian conservation project last year."

"We worked with this state and that one to draft reasonable legislation concerning the private keeping of exotic and potentially dangerous animals."

"Our membership raised x number of these species in captivity, none were from wild populations."

"Our membership has a registry to insure the lineage of the animals we raise and sell."

"Our organization offers free education for the keepers of reptiles on aspects of husbandry, medicine and breeding as well as free programs for schools on the Biology, Conservation and Natural History of reptiles and amphibians."

"Our organization offers educational programs on Reptiles and Amphibians for groups such as Hunters and Fishermen, Jogging and Hiking, Camping, etc., including emergency First Aid for Snakebite victims, venomous snake identification, etc."

"Our members bred this and that Threatened or Endangered animal in captivity and are willing to donate offspring, labor and time for valid repatriation or research projects."

"Our organization works in concert with Government Wildlife Agencies to research and insure the future of Threatened and Endangered wild populations."

I can think of others, but that should give the idea...

Don't you think that would be better than just sitting back and letting them take their shots at us?

Your right on there, in fact The herp society I am with does outreach educational shows and even presnts an annual scholarship to our state science fair (Only $200. But we're a small club). The problem is the good we do is often overlooked and one Newsworthy snakebite can kill a ton of good. The biggest danger lyes in the side shots that these groups take. They cut up little by little so rarely more than a small group is effected.
A prime example is the proposed Boiga Ban. How many herpers out there said "It's not something I work with so why bother?" How many got the word out to the breeders and importers? Down here (In Florida) we have an active letter writting campaign going and they guy I heard the news from is busy in New Jersey. What amazes me is how few breeders I run into even know it's happening!! And yet if you go to the webpage for the North American Brown Tree Snake Team they are allready trying (the next step)to put any snake that looks like a Boiga on the ban as well. It sets up legal grounds to include any other snake, fish, bird or whatever is deemed an "Enviromental Hazard" into the Lacey Act which means NO MORE!!! Have you looked into this? It was posted on the venomous Forum. If you want I can Email you a copy of the response we are circulating.
We are our own worst enemy Because as a group we do nothing except write about our latest aquisition or what ever problem we have at home with our stock. Our anger (mine too) is wasted on silly issues that we post on these forums (How About all the energy wasted on the "Hybrid" arguement on the kingsnake forum? Your right. We will lose our rights here due to apathy. Because no one will raise a hand till it hits them personally....and then it's TOO LATE.
Frank

Yep...that's what I'm trying to get across.

And a good example of the apathy you speak of is the response that Dean got on the Tortoise forum regarding the Gopher Tortoise project. I'd be willing to bet good money that every single one of them thought "Well, I can't get or keep Gopher Tortoises anyway so it doesn't affect me." or something very close to that. You would think that would the the forum where he got the MOST response. None of them ever stopped to think about future implications or the other species that are affected. If it doesn't affect them directly and right now, they can't be bothered with it. By the time they realize that it DOES affect them and every one of us, it's too late.

I have been trying to find people around here to help me start a Society with the goals mentioned in my previous post for the state of Georgia, but no one seems to want to devote the time and a little bit of money to get it going. I guess I'll have to do it by myself.

I lived in Georgia...you're in the wrong state. When I was there back in the late eighties (as I stated on another forum)it was like being a Jew in Naziland. I never have before or since seen a more parinoid group or a state with more illogical laws. Well I'm getting ready for our local show on Sunday to spread more letters on the Boiga issue.....Frank

that the children, (especially older ones) of today are our future. I am sorry I don't live in Georgia, (Old Herper) as I could invest some of my time and effort there since I just retired from the military. But even there and in other states as well, Florida, Louisiana, Texas, Californa, New York, and now my new home in North Carolina, I have invested countless hours doing FREE reptile shows from Elementary schools to High Schools for well over 20 years now. I enjoy doing this, for it educates our young that snakes are NOT slimy, evil creatures that should be killed on sight! I had also been a member of several Herp societies/ clubs to assist in Political matters. You guys have a very good point - well said old herper! But just want to remind you that if we don't keep our young educated in schools (cause the parents won't) no politicians will believe us anyway. Most of them were uneducated or misled(about reptiles) when they grew up. I can tell you from experience, more than 90% of kids are fascinated about reptiles, once they find out that there are nonvenemous ones out there and that a lot of them don't even bite! I have NEVER had a child that has been bit during all my presentations (just defecated on, unfortunately)! Like I said, IT IS messed up, but it starts from the GROUND UP!!!

No fancy Degree,
Not a herpetologist
Not a wildlife officer
Not rich
Just Blue collar - ol ME who CARES about reptiles!
ZEE

Yep, you are absolutely correct. That's why free school programs is one of the goals I listed.

That was definetly a subject that was overlooked or not fully examined. You are ENTIRELY right, if a new generation of human beings doesn't develop an awareness and appreciation for their native fauna, and in fact for fauna all over the U.S.A., then who will battle the developers that want to cover these areas over with condos and stripmalls. You made a great point is what I am trying to say. Personally, I do presentations to classrooms, from K-12th for free all year long, with not only reptiles, but birds of prey, fish, sharks(That one is interesting!) and mammals and of course I always include both Drymarchon and Pituophis in my presentations. I explain ot the children that these snakes(Couperi, L.A.Pines) are rare and may not be around in the wild when they grow up if they themselves dont actively lobby or speak out for it. Much of it may be lost, but they develop an respect and reverence for these snakes, and in MANY cases, ESPECIALLY when I am dealing with children from third world countries, who have been taught that snakes are the epitomy of evil....many of them become the first person in their family for three generations back to actually NOT be scared of snakes. And even LIKE them.

So, in closing, I beleive that education of children is VITALLY important to the survival of these snakes in the future, in addition to the steps that Dean is metioning. Call it a three pronged attack. I sure hope that it works, it would be a shame and travesty to lose not only the Drymarchon in the U.S., but all the OTHER native wildlife that shares their range.

Thanks,

Fred Albury

Hi Fred,
I don't normally post on this forum but I do check in quite a bit. I am very interested in doing "small scale" presentations but don't think I have an adequate or diverse collection (mainly lizards and two pinesnakes). I inquired about obtaining animals on loan with no luck. Are all those exotic animals in your posession or is there a place you can "borrow" them just for educational purposes? I was also curious about your La. Pines and there lineage. Will you have any available in the future? I would love to work with these. Thanks!

Anna Meade (lizard lover)

Anna,

No, I dont actually have the vast majority of these animals. I borrow them on loan from a network of friends that I have accumulated over the years. I was a former Keeper in the Bird Dept of the San Diego Zoo, so I made a lot of contacts over the years, and occasionally call in favors. I also know people that keep reptiles,birds, birds of prey, amphibians, and also I am friends with several shark fishermen, and a good friend of mine is a Marine Biologist.MANY of the animals that I bring I have kept in the past, but arent currently maintaining in my small collection.
You can email me at aztecfred@msn.com to talk about getting you some of these animals to compliment your presentations. I would love to help you in your endeavour. Email me when you get a chance.

Sincerely,

Fred Albury

My goodness, thank you for the kind offer! Honestly I don't care to add too many animals as I would be entertaining a small audience of youngsters. I am affiliated with scout troops as well and would like to do indoor (of course) presentations. What do you use to transport so many animals and what do you display them in during your talks? I can't imagine being able to accomodate a shark, lol. It's nice that you have so many friends that trust you with their animals. Do you live near Arizona? Anywho, I never e-mail on the first date, lol.

I agree - and if you align yourself with the middle, the other side starts to look extreme - they discredit themselves, with your help. But its a tricky row to hoe, as they say.

There might have to be some compromises, but you don't want to be drug into the compromise kicking and swinging, you want to initiate it - in my opinion, of course.

Joe

Yep...the best defense is a good offense.