Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Erik Anderson (not a member of this forum) asked me to post some notes that he thought were important regarding some of the recent debates:

"I saw something on there regarding ultra-sonic humidifiers.. people should be warned that using soft water in those units may cause damage not to the unit itself but to plants and animals. You may know the chemistry better than I, but after using water that has passed thru a traditional softener with salt, you will notice a white dusty film covering everything.. I'm told that this is a poison that will kill frogs. This I just overheard from a water pro that was installing a commercial DI system for an aviary. I have seen this white material myself, and if you ask me it smells kind of funny. If you can verify this, or can think of the chemical this creates, you may want to post something. I say, using regular tap is fine, you just have to clean it occassionally. Distilled, RO, DI, anything but softened water."

That is absolutely correct. Softened water is salt water. Water softners are not ment to purify, they are meant to make the water tast better by adding yummy salts. Sounds odd doesn't it?

Joe
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3.0.1 Tinc Patricias
0.0.2836 Pea Aphids
0.0.4392 Springtails
0.0.1842 FruitFlies
0.1.30 Dampwood Termites

What about softening the water like you do for an amazon fish tank. Like using blackwater extract or other mixtures to soften it? I always thought that since fish are sensitive to pH and minerals in the water, wouldn't dart frogs benefit from specially treated water as well?

The details on how a softening system works are a little foggy but here goes.... (I learned this when I was in high school). Well, a water softener like you would have in your basement basically replaces the hard minerals (like calcium and magnesium) with a salt called a zeolite. The zeolite is what is present in the softened water.. and everybody that I know who has a water softener in their house has told me that the water from the softener is not suited to drink. This tells me right away that it cannot be good for my amphibians. Fish people have also told me that water from a home softener is not a good thing for fish. I guess the actual reason that people have softened water systems is to prevent a mineral scale buildup in pipes and on faucets. At my house, the mineral scale is nothing that a little vinegar couldn't cure. Now, the black water extract works much differently... and lacks those nasty zeolites. So that is a whole different ballgame.
Cheers...
Double J

What about exo-terra "Water conditioner"? I have thrown away the leaflet, and the bottle only says that it removes chlorine. Anyone know if it softens water also?
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Matt

I believe those are chemicals that bind with chlorine and such to make the water tolerable for fish. They may not be as bad as water from a home water softner but it is probobly best just to let the water sit on the counter overnight if you must use tap water. Really it is best just to use regular Distilled/RO water, that way you know it is safe. I also say this because I have no idea what is in those bottles you are using, perhaps someone else has done a bit of research on these products, but I shy away from anything that contains a chemical.

joe
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3.0.1 Tinc Patricias
0.0.2836 Pea Aphids
0.0.4392 Springtails
0.0.1842 FruitFlies
0.1.30 Dampwood Termites

Keep in mind that letting water sit out overnight does NOT get rid of chloramine... that it why some municialities use it. I have used tap water in my area (which is known for some of the best tap water in the world...)for many years on my amphibs. I have treated the water with both the Hagen "Aqua safe" as well as Zoo-Med's "Reptisafe." My girlfriends dad who is a hard core "fish guy" uses the water conditioner exclusively on his tanks... and lets face it.. I am sure most fish hobbyists use water conditioner as it would not be feasible to run to culligan every week to get refills on your bottles (especially for a big reef tank). Hmm why don't some reef or cichlid people chime in? Let's hear your thoughts...
Double J

You all are very true when it comes to the facts about soft water, and there are also some other points that need to be brought up. RO water and distilled water can be bad for you frogs just as much as hard water will be, hard water has too many minerals, and Ro and distilled lack the required minerals that they need. The RO water will eventually make your frogs swell up like balloons, it's not a pretty sight.
For all the products to treat the water, The chemicals that Exo-Terra put out are pure crap. They don't work well and many of them leave films on the tank glass. I highly recommend you not purchasing them. Aqua Safe is also not up there in the top water conditioners, The best one i have found so far is called "Prime." The products only takes a few drops per gallon, and takes out all heavy metals and chlorine and chloramine.
There are many posts on this topic throughout this forum, so take some time and look through them, there is alot of very interesting information, most of it coming from people who have kept frogs for years.

Now why would distilled water make a frog swell up? Rain, after all, is distilled water. Also, I was under the impression that frog swelling was due to kidney failure.

Joe
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3.0.1 Tinc Patricias
0.0.2836 Pea Aphids
0.0.4392 Springtails
0.0.1842 FruitFlies
0.1.30 Dampwood Termites

BS, not true, unfounded.

Donn

My frogs are definately swollen. ~

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3.0.1 Tinc Patricias
0.0.2836 Pea Aphids
0.0.4392 Springtails
0.0.1842 FruitFlies
0.1.30 Dampwood Termites

... but not from RO water! BTW, great pic of your Patricia. My pic sucks but I just snapped it real quick a few minutes ago.

That's a nice fat frog, I must be underfeeding mine.

I'm off to make more FF cultures now.

Joe
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3.0.1 Tinc Patricias
0.0.2836 Pea Aphids
0.0.4392 Springtails
0.0.1842 FruitFlies
0.1.30 Dampwood Termites

The only time I would use straight RO or De-ionised water in a fresh water aquarium is to replace water lost to evaporation. The initial water and replacement water, due to a partial water change, has to have some electrolytes and trace elements added back into the purified water before using. There are many products available, depending on which species of fish you are keeping

In a saltwater aquarium, the salt mix already contains the the electrolytes and trace elements in the mix, just add purified water, either RO/DI (I've used both with good results.).

I don't have any experence with keeping frogs yet(still working on my first viv.), but I would think frogs get most if not all their required trace elements from their food not the water as rain water and condisation is pretty pure.

Here is my two cents. The water softeners are essentially ion-exchange resins, so the hard water causing metals such as magnesium and calcium, both at 2 ionic state can attach to the resin and release the sodium into the product water end. When all the sodium is released, the resins need to be recharged and that is when strong salt water (sodium Chloride, brine)needs to be passed over the resin to release the calcium, magnesium, also iron from the resin bed and replace with sodium. Now when this is recharging all product water needs to be dumped into the drain, since it is a strong salt solution.

The residue left on the glass when the water is dried is sodium, unless the resin is fully exhausted. Since the sodium concentration is high with softened water, it is not advised for high blood pressure patients with low sodium diet requirements.

Calcium and magnesium will bind with anionic soaps and precipitate to form the soap scum on surfaces.

WM

Additional note, I am not sure if there are any metal surfaces that the water goes through for the sonic humidifiers, but salt solutions are corrosive and can cause the metal to pit and go into solution, so a small amount of metals may wind up in the mist. Some heavy metals can be toxic at low concentrations.