Reptile & Amphibian Forums

just curious, never really heard much on the subject.

Dont inbreed. Its fairly common in the reptile industry but stupid now matter how people try to validate doing it.

Rgrds,
Michelle

How do you know?
Do you believe the thousands of Australian monitors in this country aren't related?
While probably not ideal, it's the best we have unless we can bring more Aussie monitors in.
That wouldn't work cause all your conservationist buddies (with wild caught monitors) would throw a fit.
The world is full of hypocrites.

DisclaimerIve had a really f-ed up day, so please excuse my out of character mood...)

Heres my stance on the subject...cut and pasted word for word off cybersalvator forums in regards to recently proposed legislation. The discussion has gotten pretty interesting, you all should check it out.

"So we're all in agreement then!
paraphrased:
1. Mass importaion should be illegal.
2. Stud books of all captive breeding stock should be kept to ensure good bloodlines.
3. When absolutely needed, fresh bloodlines shall be introduced under strict accordance with the guidlines set forth by conservation, and breeding experts, who would work together to prevent the exploitation of our wild populations.
OK! Im glad we settled it! Now, implimentaion begins at sunrise, I expect you all to be ready! "

Hmmmm...........you didn't anwer either of my questions, but I will answer yours.

I understand a little about biology. Next Thursday I am leaving for Venezuela to implant medical devices made of bioabsorbable polymers into 10 patients in preperation for a submission to the FDA.
I am inventor/co-inventor of over 20 issued US patents for medical devices, and over twenty pending US publications.
Here are a couple of links.

http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&Sect2=HITOFF&p=1&u=%2Fnetahtml%2Fsearch-bool.html&r=0&f=S&l=50&TERM1=ginn+richard&FIELD1=&co1=AND&TERM2=&FIELD2=&d=ptxt

http://appft1.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&Sect2=HITOFF&p=1&u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsearch-bool.html&r=0&f=S&l=50&TERM1=ginn+richard&FIELD1=&co1=AND&TERM2=&FIELD2=&d=PG01

I have an additional question for you.....

If inbreeding is unethical and you won't support wild caught animals, will you stop keeping monitors all together?

Regards,
Richard S. Ginn(rsg)

I've taken a few. I agree doesn't seem like a good idea. If the possibility for breeding in a larger gene pool exists then it should be persued. However in many cases there happens to be a lack of available mates. Sorry thats just how it is.

As for whipping out the patents nice move. I'm assuming you weren't the one paying for the applications and paper work to get them through. It must be nice to be a member of a team. Because those babies are expensive! I've missed out on a few patents that are actually usable to the average person but I can't afford to patent them. Its a shame really.

I'm glad you have been able to be apart of those patents, however none of them seem to apply to the current topic. They are neat, and I suppose vascular technology is biologic in nature it IS NOT genetic in nature. So that doesn't really back you up, I'm sure you've had some classes in there though right?

Well good luck with your stuff.

Oscar

Hopefully. Or perhaps it could complicate matters even more so...

Just leave your IQ score on your signature so we can all see it. Please dont hold back.
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"Feed um then heat um"
"The less you breed the more you read"

Here's another link for you.

http://washington.bizjournals.com/sanjose/stories/2003/09/22/daily69.html

Not only am I smarter than you, but I have a lot of money too....
Ain't life a biatch.

Not only are you smarter than me, but I have much more money than you.
Ain't life a [bleep]!
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"Feed um then heat um"
"The less you breed the more you read"

(remember my prevous disclaimer)

Listen here, I have my own views, and my "buddies" have theirs. I dont have my head stuck up my FRiends a$$es. So FRiend, Im glad we have that straight.

with inbreeding, it is a natural occurance.

Ethics have to do with morals, which have more to do with how the monitors perceive things, than us, or any facts (if they are even facts). I think ethical bounds are pushed more, by buying w.c. animals, or forcing animals to endure things they shouldn't have to for our own egos. But you see perhaps I am just unethical.

--Robert

Maybe all my schooling haS actually made me dumber, but I ahve been taught in bio and anthro classes that the smaller the gene pool is, the more chance there is for disadvantagious traits emerging in the bloodlines from the abundance of recessive genes. The herp culture inbreeds so this will happen. For example the trait of albanism. This is a recessive gene. In the wild being albino would spell doomsday. There are more serious recessive genes that effect health, and inbreeding only increases the chances of this occuring.

Michelle

was it ethical, it is plain and simple yes.

And yes it happens in nature, almost assuredly not to the extent of Oz monitors in the U.S., but what choice is there?

Gene pools thinning out requires the other bloodlines to be killed off. No one is saying to do that, None of these monitors are going to be released in the wild either, so what is your hangup with it?

I suppose that mass importation, with thousands dieing off to support a junk monitor trade is completely ethical.

--Robert

Do you not want to face the fact that no matter how you look at it, inbreeding can and will result in genetic defect. Who wants to have pets, animals that were supposed to be superior becase of their CBB satus, die prematurely or live with health impairments because of poor breeding practices?

You are so funny.

The inbred c.b. species I have gotten from the man you hate so much, are a hundred times more bulletproof than any import, and I have a mix of both c.b., c.h., and w.c.s. You are making alot of assumptions based on what?

You may not condone mass importation, but you sure do/have supported it, and I don't think the importers care what you think, as long as you give them money, which you have.

You want to make mass importation illegal, yet if you could do it all over again, you would get another imported species. Perhaps you should learn to practice your beliefs before you force them on everyone else.

--Robert

I have bought wc. I do not deny this, but will I do it anymore. NO.
There is such thing as learning. I would hope that my mistakes were not in vain. Maybe this is why Im so adament now.

As far as hating. Im afraid youre talking to the wrong person. Its true, when I get kicked enough I begin to bite. You gotta think about who did the kicking before you blame for nippyness.

I must be mistaken that less than a week ago, that you said if you had to do it over you would get rudis. You must forgive those of us who are skeptical of those who change over from participating in a system to making a system illegal in less than a week.

--Robert

I was under the impression that this had been done...Forgive me if Im wrong.

I have considered not even having any reptiles, because of the personal conflictions that arise. As a child I would capture anything that moved and put it in a cage. Kingsnakes, gohpersnakes, rattlesnakes, assorted skinks, alligator lizards, fence lizards, toads, salamanders, rodents etc. I would make sport of seeing what would eat what, and who could kill who. We used to bet on our alligator lizards(fighting them), and feed them gored skinks to get them blood hungry. From age 5 and into my teen years I was a terror to the natural world around our valley town. My grandmother would scowl at me and say "Michelle, why do you catch these animals and put them in jail?" Dont get me wrong...having these animals wasnt all about sport. Most of what was caught was released within a few days of capture, if not the same day, but I am not afraid to disclose even the darkest of what my past entails. Im not proud alot of things Ive done and contibuted in, but those are the things that have made me the person I am today. Like it or not.

There is a part of me today that gets joy from keeping a beautiful animal all for myself in a cage at my house. Thats really screwed up when you think about it. Control issues?? Im not sure why I get pleasure from this.

There is also another part of me that is sickened by keeping animals in cages(thanks grama ), and would much rather see them in their natural environments. Maybe go see them, and take some pics and come home guilt free, with an album full of beautiful reptiles all for me to see whenever I want.

See the confliction?

Is the comprimise to only buy CBB?? Im not sure about that either. Do the people that have the CBB stock also sell WC?? If you support them at all, then youre supporting all that they are involved in. What about the local store that you buy rodents and other things from time to time? Do they only sell CBB? If they sell WC then you are still supporting thier WC trade. The list goes on. What about your fancy exotic wooden furniture?? How much forest area had to be cleared to make that table? How many Melinus were butchered??

See the confliction?

Damn right Im torn. I really want to do whats right. Maybe I will not buy another herp. Maybe I will keep the ones I have, and end my herp keeping when they pass many years from now. Maybe I will devote my life to travelling, and demonstrating, and promoting public awareness, helping native people find better ways of surviving then selling out their own natural assets for a few americal dollars. Maybe...

Yeah, damn right Im conflicted...

and it tears me apart more than you can know...

Is I am not calling for banning importation, wood, etc. I don't like the way monitors and animals are treated, but I am not telling the government to get involved, and I don't buy junk monitors mainly because of the industry they support. To tell you the truth, my opinion on government, is they live on power, they will use whatever means to get it, and will never give it up once they have it, their are 1000's of years of history that supports this. So no matter what my feelings are with any of it, I will never support government bans/controls.

While your goals are admirable, the means just plain sucks, and would not solve anything.

--Robert

Im not sure why, out of all that you said, this jumped out at me the most. What are you talking about when you use this phrase? What are "junk monitors"? I know of junk cars...Fords mustangs, pintos, etc... but monitors?

I know that the governmt has the tendency to get carried away. Hell just look at poor Leonard Peltier. However, sometimes they need to step in. In theory, my proposals are good ones, but proper implementation would take more organization than our government can handle, so Im not sure what the answer is.

Mostly monitors that are used as loss leaders for pet/reptile shops. There only purpose is to drive accessory sales. Most notably savs and niles, but mangroves, waters, albigs, also have fallen into that trap. The monitor is basically worthless to the store, worthless to most people buying them, and are treated as such. Have you not seen the posts here, where a keeper is not going to spend $75 for a vet consult, because they can buy a new monitor for $25.

Conservation should concentrate on habitat destruction. The humane thing is what I have problems with, it could be lessened, but not eliminated, if the monitors cost alot more. But we must remember there are dogs, cats, horses, that are treated horribly too, and those are 'cute' and furry and have widespread public support, yet the government has been able to do little to help.

--Robert

The spin doctor assistant only cares about how he comes across to his head spin dr. A flirtatious slap on the butt and a raise are hisher only objectives.
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"Feed um then heat um"
"The less you breed the more you read"

It's not because you are a total moron that I always disagree with you. Believe whatever makes you feel better. How's that female, has she cycled yet?

--Robert

Yeah that is it and you know it and so does your wife. You wanna call me a moron, well I say your a little biatch thats trying to impress. Are you a cop? If not you would be a perfect canidate.
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"Feed um then heat um"
"The less you breed the more you read"

And no she hasnt cycled yet but sh1t I'd be too dumb to tell, yeeehaw
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"Feed um then heat um"
"The less you breed the more you read"

You have to be to act like this. You haven't shared any experiences, advice, or really anything but to argue on something you know nothing about. You keep making it personal, when it's not. This is a MONITOR FORUM, not a spew b.s. forum. The last time I checked, this is forum was supposed to be about the better of the monitor. You'll probably end up getting banned soon, but that has to be what you want to have happen, right? So why be here? Why be jealous of people that are actually accomplishing things? I thought you were going to "jump off the hamster wheel". What happened, foot get stuck in the little metal bars? I've been on here for about 4 years, and have seen people just, and it would scare you to know how exact it is, like you come and go. So what you're doing deffinatly isn't original, and has been seen 30+ times by me just in the 4 years. Time to try something new, like improving your monitor so mabey she (if it is a she) cycles.

"You baffle us with your bullsh1t, and you have nothing to dazzle with"

Hey Geoffery I'd bet youd just love for me to jump off the hamster wheel wouldnt ya?
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"Feed um then heat um"
"The less you breed the more you read"

I would like you to discuss, share, or just show your monitor. Like I said, this is a monitor forum, to discuss monitors. Not to be jealous of other people who are keeping, and producing moniotors succesfully. Because, that is all I can see that you are doing. Are you mad that you aren't able, or able to try to do it? Are you either limited physically or mentally to not be able to talk about your monitor? Was that really your monitor? 30+ people coming and going just exactally, and I mean exactally like you. Why are you so jealous?? Why don't you just try to advance your monitors and achieve an actual goal or progress them? Then you would have something to truely discuss. Isn't this getting old to you?? I would imagine if you were over 21 it would. I mean, people just grow up and grow out of things like this, what's wrong?? As you have noticed, I have never attacked or belittled you, just asked you to actually talk about monitors. Why is that so hard?? Here, I'll start. Let's see if you can follow along. -Jeff

You said
"As you have noticed, I have never attacked or belittled you, just asked you to actually talk about monitors."

Cmon spin it some more. I'm learning.
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"Feed um then heat um"
"The less you breed the more you read"

You post nothing about your monitor. You have no valid experiences to share, one picture and buckets of b.s. I have posted many experiences good and bad, hundreds of pictures, so if you want to judge go ahead, make your day. The difference is I keep monitors for me, I do not care what you think of me, my wife, my children, my monitors or my husbandry. I have helped people who I could, by actually having experiences good and bad directly related to their posts, you post regurgitated 'facts' and personal attacks, you also liked to use fake ids till you realized that people still knew who you were.

You see, I have never posted to impress anyone. In fact many of my posts probably do the opposite. I do not care, but you and the people like you, are the reason hardly anyone shares the bad things, and that pisses me off. As far as what I really think of you, that has not changed since I saw your first post.

--Robert

Yep I used 2 fake ip's for about 48 hrs. You and your fellow clones love to bring that up. But heres the real deal, monitors dont type. You guys are overall pricks! Whether your discussing monitors or whatever. What does being an over pretentious, know it all prick have to do with monitors??? It's almost become equated with owning monitors, thanks to you guys.
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"Feed um then heat um"
"The less you breed the more you read"

This can easily be seen with ackies. The first thousand in the U.S. came from a very small gene pool and we see today that they are starting to come out with eight legs and nine eyes.
HAHAHAHAHHAHAHA. So with the above statement obviously not being true how can you say that this person breeding a monitor back to its parent will cause problems or is wrong????? Certain monitor breeders have been holding back hatchlings from their own stock to produce better colors. Whether it works or not it is still inbreeding. Many monitor breeders are also on F4 or more generations all coming from the same blood but we have yet to see problems so how can you say what you are saying? You have no evidence what so ever that shows inbreeding having a negative effect on monitors. There is no way to get new blood lines of some of the oz species so keepers have been breeding the stock they have and again we have yet to see any problems.
So you took an intro Bio class....I would ask for your money back.
This is not a new topic, it has gone on long before today. People had concerns about dumeril boas. The many we have today all came from a very very small gene pool but yet they are still thriving. We as humans know that inbreeding is wrong "for us." But does a lizard in the wild know who gave birth to it? Would it recognize its mother? No, it would more than likely breed.
Please sit back andthink about it. Think about all the species of reptiles in the U.S. that came from small gene pools. Think about how many are thriving and the numbers of them that are now here. Your argument is weak, not based on any solid proof and I highly doubt you can refute the proof I have given.
Now if this is your "opinion" then thats fine. But if that is the case then your opinion is contradicting the ackies, flavis, goulds,glauerti, lacies, on and on and on, other reptile species, and on, etc. etc. etc.
Alan Stevens

Now you can say you have met me. Lets begin shall well.
When did I state that the entire bulk of my formal educaion rested on the knowledge attained from a single introductory course? Looks like you need to brush up on your critical evaluation skills.
As far as the value of your (and my) argument, time will tell.

~MR

Does inbreeding cause problems?

http://www.varanus.net/cgi-bin/eboard30/index2.cgi?board=Main&message=4489&mode=Current&frames=no

No, of course not, LOL.

What a loser you are! No name?

Please explain what that has to do this thread.
Anomalies happen in NATURE, too, or you wouldn't be looking at albinos, hypos, or any other morph. It is perfectly normal and natural, to have randomly occuring 'defections' show up in a population. Please read up on evolution, and how it works, you are sorely in need of an education.
Here is a summary: If a 'defect' enables that animal to do better than its siblings, it will pass on that trait, if not, it will not be passed on. The 'defect' itself is normal, and expected.

Please explain to me, why there aren't any morphs of ackies. After 10 years, we should be seeing some albinos, patternless, tricolors, etc. Why isn't this being achieved? Why aren't we seeing more 'defects'? There are countless generations of inbred ackies out there. So why are they all doing so fantastic?
Year after year, as more healthy ackies give birth to more healthy ackies, it becomes more evident that some zealots are just talking out their a**.

You are grasping at straws, and it shows.
D.

Dragoon, you are so funny! I'm a loser because I didn't use my name? Does it say Dragoon on your birth certificate? No? You must be a loser.
Evolution occurs in nature. Evolution does not occur in captivity. Selective breeding does. My guess as to why there are not morphs of ackies in the US is because the original stock did not carry those genes. It's actually an amazing feat! Since nobodysbusiness, the original poster, did not state what type of monitor he is breeding, I do believe it's unethical to breed it back to its parent. If he is breeding ackies, it isn't likely to make much of a difference, but if he is breeding any one of the less bred species, the genetic outcome is anybody's guess, and could very well be BAD.
I know many people who line-breed many species of animals, and they are my friends. I realize that line-breeding is sometimes the only solution, but if there is a workaround I think we should look for it, especially when not breeding for a specific trait.
HJ, cordially

Now, I don't know about monitors... but these so called "defects" IE. albinism, Axanthic, Leucistic, etc... aren't actually defects. They're evolution in progress.. testing out different patterns and traits in a population to see which are successful and which are not. Those animals that get picked off due to one of these forms of mutation obviously didn't win the genetic lottery... however, if every mutation was fatal, we wouldn't have the diversity of life in this world that we do. Most mutations are caused by environmental changes in the race to survive the new conditions... If it works, this is passed on.... If it works, then its almost guarenteed most of that single animal's siblings will have something of the same trait...and over time those that do not, will either die out.. or isolate in an area where conditions haven't changed so much. Now, what are those animals mating with, if not their own descendants/parents? While long trends of inbreeding are indeed bad for any species, its a proven fact that many instances of inbreeding/linebreeding can actually improve an animal's chances of "survival" by fixing certain traits within that bloodline as long as outcrossing happens somewhere after a generation or two. In captivity, we tend to control this...but take for example, Komodo Monitors. They live in a very isolated area.. a series of a few islands...their numbers are limited by food and climate and space... How closely do you think most of those animals are related in that limited gene pool? Probably quite a bit.. In time that does cause health problems... but with the dispersal of genes comes a better chance to suvive despite the fact you may be mating with your cousin or mother.. or sister for that matter. Line breeding is the lesser of two evils in this instance. Sibling to Sibling mating can have a bigger risk of problems than Daughter to Father or Mother to Son matings due to the fact that only one set of genes are being copied by mating to a parent rather than 2 with siblings.
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Lucien

1.0 Columbian Redtail Boa (BCI)
2.1 Leopard geckos (2 Blizzard and 1 het Blizzard)
0.1 Savannah Monitor
13 rats
12 Gerbils
2 Dogs
3 cats
1 Albino Corey (fish)

Evolution occurs in nature. Evolution does not occur in captivity. Selective breeding does.

Whats the difference? Captive animals, as a whole, evlove to carry the desired traits of those that breed them. Desired animals last longer (because they are more expensive and genreally cared for better), and are more likely to be bred in captivity. That is a desirable trait becoming more prominant as a result of selection. Natuaral or not.

"I do believe it's unethical to breed it back to its parent."

Then don't do it. Your beliefs are irrelivant to the rest of us. Logical arguments require (drumroll) logic. Not beliefs.

"If he is breeding ackies, it isn't likely to make much of a difference, but if he is breeding any one of the less bred species, the genetic outcome is anybody's guess, and could very well be BAD."

What if?

What if it was horrible? Six legs and three heads!

Then they probable wouldn't breed them again. Hmmm?

"is it unethical to breed a monitor with it's parent?" - nobodysbusiness

"I do believe it's unethical to breed it back to its parent."-HeebieJeebies

"Your beliefs are irrelivant to the rest of us."-creeps

That's the funny thing about ethics. They often get forgotten when people want to justify doing something generally thought of as unethical to somebody else.

"They often get forgotten when people want to justify doing something generally thought of as unethical to somebody else."

Thats because everything is unethical to somebody.

"So convenient a thing it is to be a reasonable creature, since it enables one to find or make a reason for everything one has a mind to do."

- Benjamin Franklin

... and I have not ever used anything other than Dragoon on any forum or chat, anywhere. Its a pet peeve of mine, people who are not consistent. I really hate that when people use different names.

I hear what you are saying, and thank you for the message. I doubt you will find anyone anywhere that does not agree, that outcrossing is the best practice, in general. Is that not ingrained in human society? In fact, could this be the reason people get right bent out of shape about it?

The point I'd like to make is, are we basing this argument on human ethics, or actual evidence of defective monitors? Isn't guessing what we THINK will happen, what has kept monitor husbandry in the dark ages for so long? Things improve when we actually look at the animals.

And how on God's earth, can someone who loves monitors, profess to hate ackies? They are so precious and perfect.
D.

The dragon has a name!!

I really like the fact that you can come on here, and most people don't know wether you are a male or female. You don't try to come across as "I am woman, hear me roar" like all the others. You come on here for the monitors, which is what it's all about. You don't have to come on here talking about "forgive me for what I'm about to say, I'm a girl and I can't control my emotions". You are real, have a real love for your monitors, and work to advance their conditions and lives. You have shown the ability to listen, learn, and improve which is awesome. I wish there wasn't a male/female view on keeping monitors, just a view of keepers that are working to improve, progress, and share experience with others, which you have deffinatly shown. I wish you all the best of luck with your animals, and even more luck hatching those eggs!! -Jeff

Who cares what you like about her. Isnt it all about the monitors. Who cares about people??? even if theyre keeping monitors.
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"Feed um then heat um"
"The less you breed the more you read"

she just posted a pic of her rudis hatching on another forum.
Very cool stuff.

Hey, that's nice to hear. =)
Really, I do not spend time on a lizard site, hoping people will like me, but its always nice to find people you enjoy. I'm just one of the wierdos Frank mentions, we are all drawn to reptiles for various reasons.
Have I mentioned I've always liked dragons?

Watching monitors hang out is not like any other animal. They don't need to groom each other, verbalize, or play. Yet they are connected. I don't really get it, but I like them.
Have a great day.
D.

I like the fact that she is one of the few people on here who breeds Rudis and posts lots of info and pics about them.
Hey Dragoon! Thanks for the pics and info, keep em comming!

Keep it up! Awsome work!!!

Michelle
p.s.
Next we gotta get some Indicus! If youre having any progress with yours let me know. Im trying to find more logs for mine. I think theyre lacking suitable nesting areas. -Same with my Timorensis for that matter! However, one of my females looks like shes cycling right now. Hopefully I get some eggs this time.

I personally don't see why it matters what my name is, but I can tell you that Paul is definitely not it. I will also assume that the hating ackies comment was not intended towards me, but towards the person you are guessing that I am, as I personally find ackies to be quite charming and inquisitive little creatures.
I would like to point out that I never said line-breeding should NEVER be done, but only that it should be avoided unless breeding for a particular trait or no other option is available. Perhaps the evidence of defective monitors is not there simply because defective ones don't hatch. Who knows, maybe the eggs that go full-term but never hatch are actually holding monitors that had genetic issues. We may never know, but I don't see any reason to believe that monitors differ from any other animal when it comes to how inbreeding affects them. It's not about "watching the monitor", it's science, pure and simple.
Congratulations on your rudicollis babies, there is nothing as exciting as watching monitor babies catch their first whiff of air

No, I did not think you were Eric. People's tones sound out loud and clear once you read enough posts, it doesn't matter too much the name at the top.

"Perhaps the evidence of defective monitors is not there simply because defective ones don't hatch."
This is a most intriguing idea, and something that would be wonderful to find out.
Please correct me if I am wrong, but don't reptiles have mechanisms for survival such as frogs that can change their gender in the absence of a male? And no X or Y chromosomes? Perhaps they have a mechanism to deal with inbreeding, as well. Don't they travel from island to island? What if all one gender, washed ashore somewhere? Or a small group of siblings? I'd like to think nature provided them with some way to thrive. Like defective animals, not hatching.
All I have to say is, we don't know for sure, if inbreeding is bad or not, there's a lot we don't know. What evidence there is, points to it being OK. Again, not definitive, but... how many people buying a pair, will actually raise them up and breed them? Another loaded question...
D.

aack, you are confusing me I have never posted my given name on here, and have only posted a handful of times, so if I'm sounding out loud and clear as somebody else, that's not me, lol.

I'm no geneticist (and I don't play one on TV) but I think that some reptiles can change sex, though I don't think it's been documented in monitors. I don't know about the X Y chromosomes specifically, either, but I think that those reptiles whose sex is not determined by temperature do have X Y chromosomes to determine their sex. I know it's been speculated that monitors sexes are not set at birth but develop over time, but I don't know that it's ever been proven. There's just so much we don't know

The main mechanism to deal with inbreeding in the wild is one that's already been discussed, evolution. Survivors survive and breed, and the rest are naturally culled. It's the same thing that is done when inbreeding in captivity, but culling animals is a hard thing to do, and when dealing with animals that aren't bred frequently anyway (these aren't leopard geckos, after all) having to cull due to preventable inbreeding seems a terrible waste.

Once again I am accused of posting under other names.

I post under Bloodbat, nothing else. Let me repeat that since you join a list of disgruntled people who accuse me of that when you dislike what is said: I POST UNDER BLOODBAT. NOTHING ELSE. Check the stupid ISP.

I stand by anything and everything I say, and I do so with the name BLOODBAT. Check the archives and you will see I have been posting here since Kingsnake began, and was using the name BLOODBAT back then. I have argued and expressed open hostility against several people over the many years and have always done so with BLOODBAT. I certainly am not about to start using another name to argue or disagree with YOU.

It amuses me that someone went through so much effort to find out my "real" name in order to spring it in a post as though it meant something relevent to the discussions we have here. That was the sign of someone with no foundation to stand on. That same person has, in the past, accused me of posting under different names too. That is even more amusing since he has used multiple names over the years (to his credit on that, he did not appear to be attempting to confuse anyone or hide his identity).

I don't care if your name is Tracy or Bertha or Queen Elizabeth. You are Dragoon to me until we begin private correspondence, and then you would still remain Dragoon in public conversations. I am BLOODBAT. That is the only name you will see me post under. In fact, that is probably the name you will see used in most non-professional situations involving me. I spent the weekend helping to run the 19th Annual Midwest Herpetological Symposium and most people referred to me as BLOODBAT.

Maybe you should do something simple like check the ISP before you assume. Or maybe you should learn from the many others who have assumed I was posting under alternative names.

WTF?????? Theyre growing wings now. Theyre evolving in 2000 monitor days(conservative) a year . My guess is they wanna get the phuuck out, QUICK!
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"Feed um then heat um"
"The less you breed the more you read"

Inbreeding can be a good thing as well as long as you are working with a healthy gene pool since you are passing along all the good traits from each lineage as well. Yes, over time you may begin to see negative traits expressed as well, but these animals should be culled, as they would in a natural environment, or not be allowed to breed. It's really quite simple, and in nature it MUST happen quite often. How else do you explain all the isolated, island populations of all kinds of animals that have evolved to survive in their microhabitats? The ones not equipped to survive were killed off to leave the healthy individuals to reproduce.
Billy

>>Maybe all my schooling haS actually made me dumber, but I ahve been taught in bio and anthro classes that the smaller the gene pool is, the more chance there is for disadvantagious traits emerging in the bloodlines from the abundance of recessive genes. The herp culture inbreeds so this will happen. For example the trait of albanism. This is a recessive gene. In the wild being albino would spell doomsday. There are more serious recessive genes that effect health, and inbreeding only increases the chances of this occuring.
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>>Michelle

Varanids in the wild "might" breed with their parents, but look at the behavior: Said Varanus species deposits her eggs into a termite mound, within her territory/home range. 6 months later the eggs pip, hatch and dig their way out of the termitaria. All young goannas/varanids are good protein for larger goannas/varanids. Those that make it to adulthood/maturity might encounter their parent in the wild. In captivity the chances of this are greater, especially since most people who breed their monitors keep some of the hatchlings for future breedings/bloodlines, and sometimes do match parent w/siblings. Many higher vertebrates can and do mate with parents, and benefits are obvious = ability to pass on genetic material and reproduce species; Varanids have been compared physiologically-wise to higher vertebrates - maybe inbreeding is one more trait to varanids where they match their mammalian counterparts as well?

In one scenario where this was tried, the 1.7 V. albigularis hatchlings/siblings would have nothing what-so-ever to do with one another reproduction behavior-wise, but would initiate and ensue reproductive behavior with non-specifics freely and regularly. What does this tell you? This tells me siblings know one another (probably from pheromone senses) and will not share genetic pool, as they're very similar as-is...Darwin and Mendell would be proud! The chances of recessive genes/phenotypes is doubled in each generation for expression, and some of those can be lethal combinations, which in mammals can result in stillborn and premature abortions - could this be sign of D.I.E. seen in varanids too?? I don't know, just a thought...

Is inbreeding unethical? That is probably for the Philosophers to argue/debate; I for one do not favor it, if possible. Genetic diversity is as important as diversity of species, as a lack of both leads to extinction of an organism...and thats sad.

cheers,
mbayless

I think inbreeding is more a problem when you have humans involved in it. Mainly because we tend to try and keep people alive using extraordinary measures. An animal with a lethal or even deleterious defect will usually die young or at least not breed. People tend to have much more support to get to breeding age. Most of the species we use as food animals etc were from serious longterm inbreeding. Sure, it can make 'bad' genes more visible but if we simply cull heavily of suboptimal animals we can go on inbreeding for a long, long time.
Isn't the thread of popular anthropology thought these days that the human race went through a evolutionary 'bottleneck' and were all descended from a very few females? 2 or 3 I think.
In any case, what does it matter in conservation terms? Captive pet animals are not part of the wild population and do not impact directly on gene diversity in the wild. Unless the captive animals show acute breeding depression, it matters little whether they are inbred or outbred.

but everyone has to admit, it is fun, right? Since it has been asked somewhere in this strand (god knows where) i am interested in breeding varanus timorensis. i had recently purchased a female to accompany my supposed male, until my supposed male just dropped some eggs. I have been unsuccessful in searching for a non blue or non yellow spot timor. My option, however, is the male parent of my orignal timor. thanks for everyone's input.

It has been done many times, without any obvious problems.
The ethics of it is a personal choice.
Good luck