Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Well, it seems that I've been banned from yet another group for expressing a point of view that was not in line with the list owner. If there is anyone here that is a member of the African Tortoise group on yahoo groups please pass this along. I'd like to keep in touch with anyone who might be interested.
That said... you really have to wonder about the information you are getting if you get that information from an indivadual or group that is so insecure about that information that they have to censor their members. It seems that I have been banned this time because I advocate a diet that appears to be easy and benificial. Hmmmm, it's gotta make you wonder.
For those of you who have any ideas that goes against the thinking of the tortoise nazis... be careful... you WILL be censored.
Ed

Geez Ed,

That really stinks. I am a member of that group as well and I was always looking forward to what you had to say in reference to the diet of Mazuri.

I beleive I shall express my dissapointment with the banning of you and see what happens.

WEll, so much for that idea. My post was rejected on the forum so, it was never put up.

Aren't these forums supposed to be for learning? Are people not allowed to have their own opinion on things nowadays?

What is this world coming to when one cannot express their thoughts on a certain subject without being damned for it?

Kelly Wood

In theory...the forums are a great tool for communication but I think in order for it to work at its maximum potential there has to be a little objectivity. I love the concept that 'you will learn what I want you to learn and you will say and do what I think is acceptable'. Kinda simple... don't you think?
Ed

I realized that forum was bogus when I posted the news that Theresa from Turtle Cafe had died & not one single person responded. Surely there were a few people who at least knew who she was.

It's not really a bogus list but the people in control have some very unique ideas in addition to being a little intolerant of certain ideas that are different from their own.
Ed

EJ, that is very sad that they did that.

I think that it has been about 3 years now that on and off I have been seeking your help on matters of tortoises (their diets, health, and specially how to avoid pyramiding on young tortoises). I have only gotten good advice from you, as evidenced by the improved health and growth of my tortoises.

It is their loss, please make sure you don't stop talking to me !!!

I here what your saying Ed!
I used to belong to the Star Tortoise Group over at Yahoo.
The majority of the group consisted of people from different countries who unfortunately had no idea of the proper care for their animals.
Most of the questions asked were regarding sick tortoises which leads me to believe that many of the individuals keeping these animals have done little or no research into their care before deciding to purchase one.
I also noticed a trend that if you weren't from the country where these people were from then "you couldn't possibly have any idea what may be wrong with their animal" even though most of the time the root of the problem is quite obvious(poor diet, substrate, etc.).
In closing I would like to say that since we are responsible for the health of our animals we should always be willing to take advice from those who are more knowledgeable than ourselves.
It's about time we get back to what's important (The animals themselves) and put egos aside.
Jackie Lapradd

np

ej
I have been on that list for some time.
I suspect you got banned for your digs and trolling.

yo do have some good advise. But you tend to say things to get people upset lik postin here

Do you work for mezuri?

Can't argue with that one. I do troll and throw out hooks but what I'm fishing for is information. Take note of the people I spar with... I've got a great deal of respect for them.
How much discussion do you see if both are in agreement? If it can be kept civil and there is a point and counterpoint you see both sides of the story and then you can decide for yourself.
Ed

I am certainly against censorship and I think we should all be allowed to give our opinions, but from what I have read of your posts, you give some very bad information. You say hibernation is not necessary, and you are an advocate of fake foods for tortoises, like Mazuri. Mazuri is soy based and soy based foods are not good for animals or people. This has been proven by recent research. Soy has chemicals which prevent calcium obsorbtion and interferes with digestion. You may not see the health effects today or tomorrow, or a even a year from now, but they will show up sooner or later. Mazuri is also cooked, and cooked food is not good for tortoises. The fact that it is convenient does not change the facts. Laziness on your part should not mean the animal suffers.

I really don't think those issues have much room for argument anymore. Tortoises DO need to hibernate, and tortoises should ONLY be fed raw vegetation. The closer to it's wild state the vegetation is, the better. Weeds and grasses and blossoms, and occasional fruit. When these are in short supply, then store-bought vegies can be used.

I agree a little. Censorship is bad, but even this list has rules.

And feeding a bad food because its easy doesn't make sense

not all tortoises hibernate in the wild. But the ones that do should do it in captivity.
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John Henry

There should be rules... not censorship.
Let me tell you a little about this and other lists on KS.
There are moderators but for the most part they are not herpers (as far as I've been told) and more so not into the lists they are moderating.
I asked to moderate this list once and it was explained to me this way. The best way to maintain objectivity was to put someone in charge who didn't give a crap about the topic. The only concern is respectful behavior. There is no problem with attacking the idea here... the line is drawn when the person is attacked. Another interesting concept.
Ed

>>There should be rules... not censorship.
>>Let me tell you a little about this and other lists on KS.
>>There are moderators but for the most part they are not herpers (as far as I've been told) and more so not into the lists they are moderating.
>>I asked to moderate this list once and it was explained to me this way. The best way to maintain objectivity was to put someone in charge who didn't give a crap about the topic. The only concern is respectful behavior. There is no problem with attacking the idea here... the line is drawn when the person is attacked. Another interesting concept.
>>Ed

Are you referring to the tortoise group/list or are you referring to this tortoise forum here on kingsnake.com ? (the forums on k.com are not the same as email lists that are subscribed to). It is a little unclear to me as to which exactly is being spoken of in regards to this particular sub-discussion of this conversation.
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PHWyvern

I'm referring to this list.
Ed

>>I'm referring to this list.
>>Ed

Since you have clarified that you were indeed referring to the k.com forums (our forums are not lists like the yahoo groups or usenet groups), I shall endevor to parley some information about the k.com moderators.

The person who created and owns kingsnake.com also created a whole bunch of other pet related sites. The PetHobbyist.com website is the umbrella site for all of these related communities (kingsnake.com, kingsnake canada, kingsnake europe, exotichobbyist, insecthobbyist, cathobbyist, doghobbyist, birdhobbyist, aquariumhobbyist, horsehobbyist, pondhobbyist, and the rescuenetwork). PetHobbyist has a large group of volunteer moderators/staff spread out over all of these sites.

While the majority of the PetHobbyist staff are not 'reptile' people I can honestly say that every single one of them who is an official k.com/k.ca forum moderator IS a herper/herp hobbyist. Anyone who applies to be a moderator for any of the pet communities has to meet some basic requirements in order to even be considered/accepted. We would not bring on someone who applied to be a moderator for the k.com/k.ca sites who has no experience at all in herptiles because THAT would serve no purpose. For example, a person who only has experience in cat behavior would best be served in volunteering their time helping out in the cat community (forum, chat room, or content) - not here on k.com or k.ca. If that cat person however also had experience in some kind of herp then yes they may possibly be considered as a moderator for both communities.

Unfortunately we do not have enough people on the k.com/k.ca staff to see to it that a moderator (or two) is personally assigned to each and every single forum so most forums obviously do not receive the regular attention and participation from a moderator that they deserve to have. The primary responsibility of a moderator is to HOST the forum. The forum moderators primary responsibility is to be there on their forum to generally help people, to try and answer questions when/where they can, to make people feel welcome, to make their forum a family/community. Their secondary responsibility is to assist in keeping the forums generally clean and safe for those participating on them. The dirty objective work of playing 'cop' falls primarily on the shoulders of the k.com/k.ca site coordinator and the forum leader who work to oversee the enforcement the Terms of Service (rules all members agree to follow when they registered to post on the forums) and mediate problems as needed.

Of course with many forums not able to get the daily attention they need from a regular moderator, problems sometimes go unnoticed. Sometimes members make use of their ability to hit the 'report abuse' button when a problem crops up and sometimes not. Sometimes folks wait until things are completely out of control before reporting it. Most often reported abuses to the site coordinator/forum leader are just that - abuses/violations of the rules and are dealt with accordingly. Sometimes things get reported by people that after review are in fact not a problem at all.

Some forums do better at self regulating themselves than others. But still, problems can explode out of no where at times. A forum is a minature community - a family of sorts. And as everyone knows, families can and do get into fights/arguements with each other over some matter be it trival or whatever. There is nothing wrong with a good fight. If everyone agreed on the same thing or held to the same opinions all the time then what would be the point of discussing anything? The problem with 'fights' is when they lose focus and leave the realm of debate/discussion and fall into the realm of name calling and insult throwing. It is ok to attack the topic/idea/concept/whatever being discussed, but to attack an individual or group and hurl insults or snide remarks at them for simply stating their opinion on those matters especially if they differ from yours or the general consensus of the group is not ok. Sometimes debates get very heated and that is good - keeps things active. Sometimes it becomes apparent to both sides of an argument that neither side is right or wrong and that both sides simply agree to disagree with one another over the matter and leave it at that. As long as people keep it civil and respect each others opinions for what they are worth that is what matters most. To do otherwise often finds someone crossing that fine line and ending up breaking the rules of the forums which depending on the severity of the violations could lead to their posting privilages being revoked.
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PHWyvern

Well, it should go without saying that not all tortoises hibernate. I would hate to think a person would get a tortoise, or any animal for that matter, without finding out about it's needs and habits.

I will say one thing, however. Even non-hibernating tortoises do have a slowdown in winter that may sometimes be quite pronounced. Even in tropical Africa it does get cooler in the winter and the days get very short because it is in the Southern hemisphere. A Sulcata or a Leopard Tort in the wild will have plenty of days during the year when it just lays there because it is too cold to move much. This should be duplicated in captivity as well if the animal is indoors by cutting down on the hours the lights are on, and moving the heatlamp further away from the enclosure for a few months.

This normally occurs without saying but why do you think it should be a necessity for the general health of the animal?
Ed

suggesting to cool them like that for months might be taken
seriously by some sulcata beginner keepers and effectively
kill a lot of hatchlings thus reducing their need for rehoming
when they get too big later. Great idea. Wow to think I spent
all that money and effort keeping mine hot in the winters,
I could just leave him to the elements. duh, I'm silly.

np

I no longer have sulcatas or Leopards. I decided a while back to just keep the hibernating torts. I need a bloody break for a while. However, I have raised quite a few of both of the above species from hatchling to dinner plate size. And I did it with the method I mentioned of giving them cooldown period. It works great and gives the torts the opurtunity to save up some energy, like they do in their wild state.

suggesting to cool them like that for months might be taken
seriously by some sulcata beginner keepers and effectively
kill a lot of hatchlings thus reducing their need for rehoming
when they get too big later. Great idea. Wow to think I spent
all that money and effort keeping mine hot in the winters,
I could just leave him to the elements. duh, I'm silly.

Who said anything about "leaving them to the elements?" Are you always this silly? If you would read posts before you attack them in your childish fashion, you would have known that I said to merely reduce their dayligt hours and move their heatlamp further away. This duplicates winter, it's very simple.

Tell me something. Ever been to Africa, where the sulcata is from? I have. I am an ornithologist (bird expert) and have been there studying effects of pet-trade collection on population numbers of different types of African waxbills for the pet trade. I was there in winter, and I can tell you one thing. My cohorts and I were freezing our BUTTS off at night and sometimes during a large part of the day, and the days were often cloudy with no sun and had like 8 hours of daylight. Do you think someone comes along and collects all the little baby sulactas and takes them into an incubator? I can assure you they don't. The tortoises simply slow themselves down and go into a state of brumation. I've SEEN it.

SOME tortoises need hibernate, not all.

Tortuga

Most of the ones commonly kept besides sulcatas and leopards and redfoots need to be hibernated. Russians, Deserts, Greeks (ALL of them) Hermann's, and all the other Medeterranean torts.

You hibernate a golden greek (from Syria or Lebenon) or a North African graeca (from Libya) and keep me posted on how it turns out.
Ed

if you are hibernating all of your Greeks, if you have any. And be careful as to what you are saying on these forums, as you don't want an inexperience herper to put a Greek tortoise that does not hibernate in a fridge, or out in the cold thinking it will take care of itself.

I believe this is in agreement that you will most likely kill the above 2 mentioned Testudo if you hibernate or attempt to hibernate them.
Ed

So maybe in an attempt to be sarcastic you said something you really didn't mean, something that if taken at face value would lead to the death of an animal?

You shouldn't rely on people knowing your intent or reading all of your posts to come to an understanding of who EJ really is and what he really means.

Saying "Species X will die if put through hibernation" is easliy undertood even thought it may be a statement that not everyone will agree with, but stating "Hibernate species X and tell me what happens" can easily be misunderstood.

Again, I'll say it, you are a valuable resource EJ, but the name calling (i.e. "tortoise nazi" and sarcasm really detracts from your arguments.

I've spent many years holding my tongue on the Tortoise Nazis and I don't use it lightly. I also didn't coin the phrase. It was begun in England... of all places. It also seems to be very fitting.
I've met many people off of all the lists including KS and I've come to the conclusion that all of the people that reach this level have the intelligence to know what sarcasm is and how to take it. I highly doubt that anyone is going to take my word alone on anything (nor would I expect anyone to).
Ed

My message was intended for tortoisehead, and not Ed. I believe Ed sarcastic remark could easily be interpreted as just that sarcastic.

EJ said: "I've spent many years holding my tongue on the Tortoise Nazis and I don't use it lightly. I also didn't coin the phrase. It was begun in England... of all places. It also seems to be very fitting."

There's a law of internet debate I've found, and while it is not a real "law" in any sense, I think it has some merit. And it goes something like, "As soon as you call your opponents Nazis, you've lost the debate." The idea being that throwing out the most vile of personal insults indicates that maybe your argument is so weak that you've nothing left but insults. Maybe that's not what you intend when you hurl that slur, but it can come across that way. And since the people you have called Tortoise Nazis have not committed any holocausts, but instead have either banned you from a forum or stated an opinion on protected species that you disagree with, I don't really see how Nazi applies. And if your friends in England jumped off a cliff, does that mean you would, too :->

EJ said: "I've met many people off of all the lists including KS and I've come to the conclusion that all of the people that reach this level have the intelligence to know what sarcasm is and how to take it."

This is a forum with maybe a few experts, lots of people with a little experience, and a number of people who don't know a tortoise from a hole in the ground. You are revered as an expert, and you say things you don't really mean, and hope the beginners and the marginally informed know what your intentions are?

EJ said: "I highly doubt that anyone is going to take my word alone on anything (nor would I expect anyone to).
Ed"

Boy, I'm gonna walk the line here, but it may not come across the right way, but here goes: With all of the sarcasm and insults you add to some of your posts, I might be inclined not to take your word on much of anything. I'm not a member of the tortoise elite, and I might not have the smarts necessary to extract the bull***t from the facts in your postings.

One last time, and then I give up: You are a valuable resource, EJ, and if you would just stick to the facts and leave the emotional garbage out of it, then I think everyone would benefit.
I'm more interested in what you think, not what you feel.

As I said, I believe that all the Greeks hibernate. It may putting a tortoise on it's own to let it hibernate outside, but in a refrigerator it is well-protected and safe.

If anyone wants me to, I can describe exactly how to do it. The time is drawing near. But then again, we are experiencing a heatwave hear in SoCal. It was nearly 90 today, and I live by the beach.

This is one of those situations where I belive that anyone concerned would know better.
Ed

You hibernate a golden greek (from Syria or Lebenon) or a North African graeca (from Libya) and keep me posted on how it turns out.
Ed
I already discussed this in another post. I absolutely HAVE hibernated golden Greeks from several Middle East locations. I have 8 golden Greeks from all over the map and I have hibernated them ALL. No problems at all. I also hibernated my Morroccan Graeca and it was all their idea. I had been told they would not hibernate by some "experts," so I kept them in my reptile room outside which is equiped with heat lamps and solar panels. It stays about 80 or 85 degrees in the shed, with the heat lamps for them if they want. The Morroccans, along about the first of November, shunned the heat lamps and burried themselves in the dirt. I left them alone for a couple of weeks, then decided to check on them. I don't care what anyone says, those little guys were in full-on hibernation. And this was under warm conditions. I went ahead and stuck them in the tort fridge, and 4 1/2 months later, I took them out and they woke up and ran around like little windup toys. Many people simply don't realize how cold it gets in countries that you would think are always hot. Northern Africa gets plenty cold for reps to hibernate. I have 9 ocellated skinks (lizards) which people told me not to hibernate. Baloney. They hibernated just fine outdoors in another shed I have witout heat.

You say there are Graeca that will never hibernate? I say you are wrong, wrong wrong. They all do. I will post pictures of them in the fridge hibernating if I have to.

I've got it sussed.
this is not even worth discussing. I've had a few and even then believe all rationality has gone out the window on this thread.
Cheers.
Ed

For starters, hibernation is not a necessity it is an adaptation. It is not necessary for survival of the individual. I can provide many examples that will support this statement. If you’d like to discuss it I’m always game.
As to the Mazuri, it is actually more difficult for me to feed because it is messy and I have to be more diligent to keep it clean.
Can you please cite your reference that soy is bad for reptiles? I’m sure the citation will state the quantity of soy that has been determined to be detrimental to the health of my tortoie.
As I said, it is far from convenient to use but the results are unreal.
Again, if you’d like to discuss it further... I’m game.
These issues should not be argued but they should be discussed until there is close to an answer. These topics have haunted turtle and tortoise keepers for over a hundred years and the fact that it is still an argumentative topic should tell you that we are still not at the answer but we are getting close.
Finally, you’re going to tell me that you are going to feed your tortoise a natural diet... based on what?
Ed

Adaptation is more important than you seem to think. Long, thick hair like a musk ox has is an adaptation to the cold. What will happen if that animal is put in the desert? Doomed. An elephant's large ears are an adaptation to deal with extreme heat. Deprive it of those ears and it will overheat and die. A toad's ability to bury itself in the mud as the hot, dry weather comes is an adaptation. What will happen to it if it cannot do this? Dead as a doornail. Tortoises are programmed by nature to become dormant at wintertime. Millions of years of evolution cannot be changed in a couple of years. They can eventually burn out and get health problems if they are forced to remain active all their lives. I had plenty of problems with my tortoises before I started hibernating them. Now they are doing great. They never bred before I started hibernating. Now they lay eggs regularly. You never answered my question of why many tortoises won't breed unless they are allowed to hibernate. There's one thing I know...if an animal of breeding age won't breed, there is something wrong with it. What happens during hibernation and subsequent awakening is an adjustment of hormones that needs to happen for them to be healthy and want to breed.

What do you mean when you say the results of feeding the Mazuri are "unreal?" That can be good...and it can be bad. A giant tumor growing off an animal's head can be described as "unreal."

I have read about many experiments that show soy is not what it was once believed to be. It has proven to be unhealthy for humans, and if I remember correctly also in rats, because of the blocking of calcium and other nutrients, and I somehow doubt if that wouldn't be true of reptiles as well. The poor health of iguanas fed on dry soy-based food is well-documented. I will find some articles on the internet and post the links...IF this place will let me do it. The last time I tried, it didn't work. One more factor about dried foods for tortoises that no one seems to mention. Dehydration. Tortoises get MUCH of their water from the food they eat. Even when you wet the food, the amount of water in it is minimal compared to what they get in vegetation. That is why you see people having to soak their tortoises so much to keep them healthy. They are chronically dehydrated from that blasted dry food.

I feed my tortoises as natural a diet as possible based on one simple fact. They eat, and have eaten, a diet of weeds and grasses and flowers for MILIONS of years. You think some shmuck in a white smock who wants to make a buck selling dried crap knows better than mother nature and millions of years of evolution? Do you think you can remain healthy eating nothing but junk food?

Adaptation is more important than you seem to think. Long, thick hair like a musk ox has is an adaptation to the cold. What will happen if that animal is put in the desert? Doomed. An elephant's large ears are an adaptation to deal with extreme heat. Deprive it of those ears and it will overheat and die.
(Mammals... I think they are different from Poikilotherms)
A toad's ability to bury itself in the mud as the hot, dry weather comes is an adaptation. What will happen to it if it cannot do this?
(This is an easy one... don’t submit it to those conditions. This is exactly what we are talking about)
Tortoises are programmed by nature to become dormant at wintertime.
Millions of years of evolution cannot be changed in a couple of years.
(Maybe not over millions of years but I’m sure you can condition a WC animal out of the habit. The point is that it is most likely a behavioral pattern rather than a physiological condition.)
They can eventually burn out and get health problems if they are forced to remain active all their lives. I had plenty of problems with my tortoises before I started hibernating them.
Now they are doing great.
(And you’re sure it was the hibernation or lack of hibernation that was your problem)
They never bred before I started hibernating. Now they lay eggs regularly.
You never answered my question of why many tortoises won't breed unless they are allowed to hibernate. There's one thing I know...if an animal of breeding age won't breed, there is something wrong with it.
(I don’t think I’ve ever disputed this point. Hibernation most likely does invoke behavioral ques.)
What happens during hibernation and subsequent awakening is an adjustment of hormones that needs to happen for them to be healthy and want to breed.
(So, how do you explain individual tortoises that breed despite not being allowed to hibernate?)
I feed my tortoises as natural a diet as possible based on one simple fact. They eat, and have eaten, a diet of weeds and grasses and flowers for MILLIONS of years.
(This is great except that you basically have to be a nutritionist. You have to know what the tortoises diet is in the wild (not assumed, to be accurate) and then you have to match that nutritional requirement through the materials you have access to... I guess that‘s easy enough but you also have to recognize that not all populations get a ‘good‘ diet in the wild either)
Ed

Raw foods are the most natural way to go but in captivity we can't always be 100% natural. Like the prepared foods or not I have seen many healthy tortoises raised on it and I know breeders that use it frequently and produce many healthy hatchlings. Zoos have been using it for a long time, longer than private keepers, and so far I have yet to see negative symptoms from its use. Some people that use raw foods do not supply the correct mix of raw foods and their tortoises are lumpy and unhealthy (some even develope MBD). If you are in a situation where you cannot give a 100% natural existence to your tortoise and you must use artificial sun in the form of uvb bulbs and substitute wild roughage in the form of supermarket greens then I would say that Mazuri might not be a bad option. It might even produce smoother healthier growth. The fact that we use supplements at all is due to captivity and its limitations. Sometimes you have to use trial and error to discover new ways to deal with captive limitations. This is why all keepers have different routines and advice for captive care. There is no clear cut way to do things and I don't think you can say Ed is wrong for using Mazuri nor are the zoos wrong for using it. As for hibernating, many species have the potential to hibernate. Some species have ranges that extend into areas where they naturally would hibernate while the same species might be in a warmer area and not naturally hibernate. Genetically these two populations might be identical. Does this mean that we should all hibernate our animals if it is believed that they do so in the wild? Perhaps, but know the locality of your animals and know if their range extends into areas where it might not get that cold. I do not think it is detrimental to the animal if it is not hibernated and I also think animals can adapt to various climates. For breeding purposes hibernation is usually said to be important.
Best wishes,
Mike N.

Bill G.

It is basically counterproductive to the sharing of information to form another group only because there is a differing of oppinions. I believe it is a differing of oppinions that leads to discovery... at least it does in my case. This is something I've managed to avoid over the last 4 years but I'm running out of neutral lists.
Ed

If you are the modirator/originator of a group, you can incourage active, differing of opinions, discussions. Also, as you pointed out if you are running out of forums to participate in, you may have no choice - unless you just decide not to post anyware - except for righting articles in Reptiles Mag. - ha ha.

I believe that different lists attract different people for different reasons - don't have time to get into that right now.

Just my humble opinion.

Bill G.

You ever notice some of the neat conversations we've had right here that have been based on trolls (and not always my own)
Ed

or I had too late of an evening.

Here is my take on the issue, for what it's worth. Censorship is bad!!! Open discussion is good!!
I know this forum and others are seen world wide, but I am in the US, and freedom of speach is one of our rights! It is because of that freedom that amy great changes have and are happening. When we voice our knolledge and opion, others benifit from it. Even if we feal the opion or knolledge is correct or not.
The issue should not be correct or incorrect. The issue should be the right to express it.
That fact is all of us that join in these groups have untaped knolledge. We are not all going to be correct all of the time! However through open and civil dicussion, we will all learn from each other, and the hobby and animals win in the end.
Ed isn't correct all of the time, but he has more knolledge and experience then I do. That is why I injoy reading his opion.
By the way my opion is that some torts need hibrnation if you are intending to breed. Also Mazuari is a God sind and I don't nor would I work for Purina!! It is the only great product they make!!
God Bless America!!!!!

Your statement was great except for one point... I'm never wrong. You might not agree with my opinion but I'm not wrong... I may not be right... but isn't that part of the debate?
Ed

Your statement was great all but me being wrong as I'm never wrong as well!!!!
By the way my male Greek is over his cold.

.