Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Again, sorry I flamed at you. Hope this doesn't get me tossed.

I know you said you weren't going to use them, but just so you can see why I was worried so badly (And maybe overreacted): here's some info about pest strips. Please read the facts and see if you get as worried as me. Seriously. This makes my hair stand up.

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Douglas Mader, in Reptile Medicine and Surgery, cautions against the use of pest strips and organophosphates:

"The active ingredient . . . is dichlorvos (DDVP, Vapona), an organophosphate. Organophosphates are cholinesterase inhibitors and have the potential for being very toxic. In some cases the presence of these strips can cause the reptile to develop a rapid, progessive paralysis. However what commonly occurs is a chronic, insidious deterioration of the animal from the prolonged contact with the poison. This may take months, resulting in the reptile dying and showing no outward signs [thus rarely are such deaths associated, by the owner, with the use of the dichlorvos product]. Even on necropsy there are no obvious lesions related to the organophosphate.

"Although many herpetologists swear by this treatment method, the author has seen far too many deaths resulting from pest strips, and their use is strongly discouraged.

"There is another important medical note regarding pest strips that should be mentioned. Many of these pesticides have been proven to be teratogenic in mammals. A teratogen is anything that causes birth defects. Also, there may be other side effects on reproduction and fertility that have not been studied."

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So I'm not full of it, here.

Just so everyone knows, signs of organophosphate poisoning include muscle tremors, excessive salivation, and ataxia (the inability to right oneself when placed in a prone position).

Many people have used these, and, thank benevolent Isis, have not hurt their animals doing it. But I wish to stress that there are DOCUMENTED CASES of pest strips poisoning an animal left in the tank with them. Boas and pythons in particular seem sensitive to this because their skin is more easily permeated by chemicals, and the high cage humidity necessary for the maintenance of these species facilitates the absorption of these chemicals through the skin.

These things are not even safe for people to touch. Snakes are, constitutionally, less capable of dealing with poisons than humans are. Pest strips contain a chemical known to be a teratogen - in other words, a chemical that can cause genetic mutations in the animal's offspring (think about what this could do to those snakes you want to breed - reproductive damage is no laughing matter). Damage may not show up for weeks or even months - but it shows up. Nerve damage, permanent, debilitating, occurs. Reproductive damage may occur. Maybe not often, or maybe all the time. But if you use these things, you run the risk. If that's okay with you, fine. Go ahead. Your pet could be one of the lucky ones.

There is also a paragraph about this in the corn snake manual!p.62 do you read it?! katy have made experiences with her corn snakes and pest strips.

She leaves several baby corns in a shoebox with a 1 by 3 inch piece of pest strip for one hour with only a couple ventilation holes. The snakes suffered neurological damage that caused them to permanently lose their ability to crawl normaly. They also went into a stargazing behavior in which they bend their heads backward as if dizzy or disoriented and couple died within one day.

I thought i would interest you...
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0.0.3 Corn Snake
0.1 Red Eared Slider
0.4.6 Guppies
0.2 Cats

Yikes! Told you! It makes my hair stand up! Eek!

Anyway. About the shed problem.

WHEN did you treat them with the oil, and when did you notice the skin problem?

Does it appear to be dry, or is the skin healthy-looking, but still peeling?

I had a boa brought to me to 'treat' that had been rubbed down with oil several times (a reason was never given for this). She had retained three sheds. They were all stuck to her like sludge, or glue. It was vile. I hand peeled her(this was, conservatively, a seven foot snake)and the skin underneath seemed healthy enough. I don't know if the snake had future problems, I placed it with someone I didn't actually get to see again (he moved out of state, presumably with the snake).

Watch them carefully. I'm assuming here that a vet isn't an option for you, really (as it isn't an option for a lot of us who live in out-of-the-way places). I really doubt they'll develop sores, or anything, but if they appear to be doing that, seek help. You should be OK as long as the skin isn't broken. When they're ready to shed, keep an eye on them. If they have trouble getting it off, you may have to help them by hand. They may shed more often than 'normal' while their skin is irritated. I had a water python with 'scale rot' who shed four times in two months, trying to get rid of the infection. This is a good thing, as it means their skin is regenerating.

I'm pretty sure they'll be all right. Keep feeding, and make sure their cage is always, always clean.

Again, sorry to flame. I just have a few hot spots, and I think that venomoids and pest strips are about ten of them.

Keep us posted. We seriously want to help.

--Naamah

you don't have to be sorry... it's me!
You're very sweet to keep posting!!

The skin seem to have stop peeling... it is not dry buy wet and rough at affected zones... elsewhere... it's normal.

My snakes are doing fine now, the one who was in the worst condition is about to shed, he has blue eyes and seem to be ok.... the other one is also about to shed, i want to say that this one only lose about 10-20 scales and his skin is in a pretty good condition, if i didn't know the other had this problem, maybe i havent notice it for this one. My third snake have no problem because she shed monday.

The three eat well and drink a lot, i give them vitamins to help their healing few days ago. If i could, i would bring them to the vet... but... there is not vet specialised in reptile where i live.

Next time i will buy a new snake... i will put it in quarentaine before doing anything else... mites are a nightmare, i known it was existing before buying this snake... but i didn't think it was so common and that i would have this problem one day!!! they are so tiny... when i've buy the snake i didn't even notice them... and i think that if the snake never had one in his eye.... i had never notice it!!!

But... we learn with our mistakes.... and now i know that mites are common and that oil bath are bad for snakes!! what is the most frustrating, is that my snake were in a very good condition before this event, they were healty and never had shedding problem.

I hope they would be ok soon because i'm very concern about that... i love them a lot and i think that everyone which own snake are like me. Snakes are not a pet people buy only for fun. Most people fear them so only few people have snakes, they are also expensive (where i live) and the equipement needed to keep them is also expensive, so when people purshase snakes, it's because they really want it. And i think most people give them good care also because of these facts. ( it's my opinion)

My post is kinda long so i will stop here, just a last question.... is it me or the forums are very slow today!!?

this is what they were looking two days after oil bath...

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0.0.3 Corn Snake
0.1 Red Eared Slider
0.4.6 Guppies
0.2 Cats

Oh, my God, those are some cute as Hell little snakes. No wonder you love them. Now I HAVE to know. Do they have names?

>>The skin seem to have stop peeling... it is not dry buy wet and rough at affected zones... elsewhere... it's normal.

This is what I saw with that boa. I think this is probably better than it being really really dry (but I really can't say for sure). At least if the skin is moist, it won't crack and form sores. Broken skin is bad. Just watch for blisters.

>>My snakes are doing fine now, the one who was in the worst condition is about to shed, he has blue eyes and seem to be ok....

Well, let us know . . . it's good that he's about to shed. At least you'll know if he's made progress.

>>the other one is also about to shed, i want to say that this one only lose about 10-20 scales and his skin is in a pretty good condition,

GOOD! He should be just fine.

>>My third snake have no problem because she shed monday.

So was she flaking and peeling before she shed, but she's fine now? Or did she never peel at all?

>>The three eat well and drink a lot, i give them vitamins to help their healing few days ago.

Excellent. That was going to be my next advice.

>>If i could, i would bring them to the vet... but... there is not vet specialised in reptile where i live.

Yeah, there's only one around here, and he's very, very expensive, and I have a LOT of snakes, so I have had to learn to treat most things by myself.

>>Next time i will buy a new snake... i will put it in quarentaine before doing anything else... mites are a nightmare, i known it was existing before buying this snake... but i didn't think it was so common and that i would have this problem one day!!!

Yes, but if they're gone now, you still have the snakes, and you love them now. Even when an animal gives me a lot of trouble, I wouldn't trade them . . . I love them all so much.

>>But... we learn with our mistakes.... and now i know that mites are common and that oil bath are bad for snakes!!

That wasn't a bad mistake to make. Some people DO kill their snakes. Like my friend with his big green anaconda, who was actually a gentle animal, and she became paralyzed from no-pest strips! It was HORRIBLE! She had to be put to sleep!

>>what is the most frustrating, is that my snake were in a very good condition before this event, they were healty and never had shedding problem.

I'm sure they'll be fine. Snakes are REALLY tough animals. They can recover from things that would kill a mammal ten times over.

>>Snakes are not a pet people buy only for fun. Most people fear them so only few people have snakes, they are also expensive (where i live) and the equipement needed to keep them is also expensive, so when people purshase snakes, it's because they really want it.

Where are you, BTW?

It's like that here, too. People are scared of snakes for no real reason. People who like snakes are rare. And women who like snakes, as any man on these forums will tell you, are even rarer! I'm a small woman (5 feet tall, 130 pounds) and people are shocked that I have all these 'dangerous' animals. Most of the men who are into snakes around here are very much big guys -- 6 feet tall plus, and over 200 pounds! People are just surprised because of how I look. Nobody expects it. I like that. Snakes aren't what people expect, either.

Email me if you have any other questions, or anything, or just want to talk snakes. (redbranch@hotmail.com)

--Naamah

If people just inspected,quarantined,they wouldnt have any problems to start with.As for the no pest strips i work 2 days a month at a very large independent pet shop that can get in over 50 reptiles covered in mites at a time,corns,balls,burmese,kings,monitors,etc.Ive treated hundreds with no pest strips and found frilled dragons to be the exception to the piosoning rule.

I used the Strips quite a bit in the '70s and '80s when there were not as many alternatives and when most of what we kept was a wide variety of wild-caught animals. I didn't run into any problems until I started breeding a lot in the mid-80s and using them on babies, as noted in the last post. We also lost some Brazilian Rainbow boas after using the strips - had major skin problems with them before they died.

I have not needed any mite treatments in more than a decade, so haven't needed to experiment. But when we were partners in Glades Herp in the early '90s, we were constantly getting new animals in, sometimes sent to us with little "extra bonuses". We treated for mites quite a bit. Sevin dust was used almost exclusively, and I can't remember ever having a problem with it.

If I should ever get mites again (it will be in my house with new arrivals, not out in my reptile room!), I don't think I would use the Strips, even though I didn't have trouble with adult corns when using them. There are better, less dangerous alternatives available now.

Just my opinion based on my experience and reading.
Good luck!

I wish we got rainbow boa's in.I use sevin dust 5% as a secondary measure against mites.I have harped at my boss about getting some black knight roach spray but he is a tightwad.Since im just the pee-on reptile guy with limited hours,my first job im a steelworker,i have about 5 hours to treat,sort,quarantine etcetcetc.He has a couple other guys that set up for them in the shop.I have them put the sevin dust down under the reptile bark,and under there tanks.I cant cover the snakes in sevin dust because it makes them look dull.If i had the time i would sevin dust them then wash them.Until then im outa options and time....Paul..

Since im just the pee-on reptile guy with limited hours,my first job im a steelworker,

Hey Paul,
I have been working at a steel fabrication plant since 1978.
hated it since 1978 too............lol
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Remember, my posts are MY opinion only.
Jimmy (draybar)

What is it? where can I get it, what does it look like and how do you use it?

thanks

Sevin dust is a brand name that is sold in garden stores and feed stores for use on plants. It comes in at least 2 different concentrations (I think maybe 3% and 7%, but not sure I remember correctly). I have used both concentrations successfully in years past.

BTW, I have used (D.E.) diatomaceous earth (sp??) on other insects - has anyone used them on mites?

Sevin dust is Carbaryl(1-napthyl N-methylcarbamate).It comes in 5% and 10% strengths.It's an off white powder that you can hardly smell and it kills about any insect moving.Ive never had to use the 10 % the 5 % has always worked for me.As for applying it to a snake i just sprinkle it out of the can then i use my hands to rub down the snake with it.It does say on the can not to touch with bare hands but im primitive and it says nothing about harming cro magnon men.That and i wash my hands well when im done.It's only 7 bucks for a 1.5 pound can and can be found at any garden store or Wallyworld or Kmart..Paul.

No Pest Strips have changed in chemical compositon since the 70's/80's, becoming more toxic as has SEVIN Dust. Many cases of Nuerological disorders can occur from use of them products in certain situations. The use of Provent A Mite & BLACK KNIGHT "WORK"! Some of my junvenile and adults can be sprayed directly with Black Knight ( avoid head) to kill mites on them. Spraying cages (empty), rooms, or entire building room by room will work for up to 90 days between sprayings. Provent A Mite works on the enclosure & substrate. Mites can come in the house from outside and on new imports through shipping which I quarentine in a separate room. Black Knight & Provent A Mite can be researched with companies on kingsnake that offer it and by using Google.com.