Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Would like to eventually work with these animals and produce young for educational displays...similar to what I'm doing with indigos.

I know there are a lot of "corrupted" lines out there. The article from the recent Reptiles ,ag gives some ways to make a positive id...which gives me a little hope...

Any help?

Dean

>>I know there are a lot of "corrupted" lines out there. The article from the recent Reptiles ,ag gives some ways to make a positive id...which gives me a little hope...

That article is junk. There is no way for a positive ID. Sorry.

Check with John Ginter, Eric Richter, Terry Vandeventer.... If they are like us, they've got a pretty long waiting list, too.

The image is of a WC female in our colony.
KJ

like that so I can get my drool bib out. LOL. Nice picture KJ.

Tery Parks

>>>>I know there are a lot of "corrupted" lines out there. The article from the recent Reptiles ,ag gives some ways to make a positive id...which gives me a little hope...
>>
>>
>>That article is junk. There is no way for a positive ID. Sorry.
>>
>>Check with John Ginter, Eric Richter, Terry Vandeventer.... If they are like us, they've got a pretty long waiting list, too.
>>
>>The image is of a WC female in our colony.
>>KJ
>>

I love thisimage. The fresh hatchlings, pre-shed, ad een one with the fresh "umbilical scar."

I really just love this one.
KJ

As KJ put it there is no way to definitively tell if a ruthven's pine is pure or not just by looking at it, counting scales, etc. There is a broad range of overlapping morphologic characters that all pines share. Not to mention that some folks bred other subspecies into ruthvens and then bred back to ruthvens to produce animals that are total look a likes but not genetically pure,( DO NOT ASK ME TO EXPLAIN THE GENEUS BEHIND SUCH A MOVE BECAUSE I CAN NOT!)Know your breeder, know your breeders breeder, know his/her breeder.....Do not buy ruthven pines from someone who can not or will not give you info on their snakes if having real ruthven pines is important to you. Good luck, it is a mess out there. Cheers, Ginter

"Know your breeder, know your breeders breeder, know his/her breeder.....Do not buy ruthven pines from someone who can not or will not give you info on their snakes if having real ruthven pines is important to you. Good luck, it is a mess out there"

As I would like to think this should apply to all herpers interested in any "real" locale herps as well. It most surely is a mess out there and one that I believe does no benifit for the animals we enjoy. I have been following these forums for many years and noticed though just asking the question of where ones stock originated from has begun much flames. Any true hobbyist should be willing to share this info. as it is in my opinion what this hobby should be about. Communication and the dissemination of information so other individuals can learn and enjoy the natural diversity exhibited by these awesome creatures amongst various habitats. How could wanting to know such info. be the source of such abrasiveness.

If these issues matter to you, I agree that one should move on and find a suitable hobbyhist that shares your same views. Not only can you potentially acquire herps that you may enjoy but also acquire additional friends that you can share your enjoyment of this hobby with.

Rich Hebron

hahahaha, I could not resist. That was for your Alien probed friend.

Even if I was probed, I didn't enjoy it.

dc

Humph. If you didn't enjoy it, why did I see you fighting to stay ON the UFO when they tried to kick you back. You seem awfully anxious to go bac, too!

Don't start that moon in June crap again, either....lol.

what a can of worms that is dean! LOL! there are several out there however, some are regular posters here in fact.....fyi though, the ruthveni shown in that Reptiles article were questionable 'at best'. the waters are very muddled in this area........good luck!

I thought the pics of the "captive born" adults in the article looked pretty questionable. They are awfully yellow...like they have some bull snake in them.

I know Terry V. has some...

But it looks like knowing where the animals orignated and trusting the source is the only way to know what you have...

Dean........stirring the pot, I see.......lol. Didn't we go down this same road a while back trying to track down genuine New Jersey pine barrens stock for Northern Pines? It's the same old story, you know for sure where they came from when you catch them yourself. Otherwise, you are simply trusting in another person's word and reputation..........Speaking of northerns...........my bad boy now measures out at 8' 3", big enough to give the average "guardian" pause before considering an engagement.........heheheh............Steve G.

>>you know for sure where they came from when you catch them yourself. Otherwise, you are simply trusting in another person's word and reputation.

I'm not quite that bleak yet. Face it - we aren't going to be able to catch these things in the wild much longer. (In the case of LA Pines, you couldn't cath a locality pair without a thousand lucky horseshoes up your butt even if you wanted to.) If this is completely true, then a locality captive bred snake is an oxymoron.

I don't quite believe that. Of course, you can always be MUCH more confident in ones you catch yourself. Too bad escapeds and released one make even that impossible to know for sure.

KJ

KJ........How about this. We will form an organization, "PURE RUTHVENI FOR ALL". The annual dues will subsidize a chosen field collectors efforts to supply breeding stock for the club. The chosen field collector will be YOU! I liken this to investors that buy into companies that look for sunken treasure. This is not really a bad analogy, as these snakes are fossorial in habit. Your success will guarantee that club members have pure ruthveni in their collections. Of course, the club will incur "minimal" administrative costs to keep the "shareholders" up to date on your ventures. The administrator?..........that be ME. Sounds like a viable plan to me. Do you think you need a backhoe to go through those watermelon patches? I will make every effort to insure the club members provide you with the tools to guarantee your success...............dead ass serious regards........Steve G.

Great plan when used in the sense of a business venture. A little bit of that species survival through captive propagation I see. Hmm, lets see, ball pythons for example we have saved maybe a hundred of albino and piebald balls (as if they are really that common in the wild..) as thousands of normals come in every year that sell for $3 each and are probably dead after 3 months.

How though could we get such a return from P. Ruthveni if there are not that many in existence to begin with? I'm glad I am only a hobbyist as understanding this business stuff and it's bearing on this issue seems out of place to me.

Rich Hebron

it probably would have been better though if people responded to the northern question in more detail than just saying, I have some and sold all the hatchlings at a show. When asked for more detail that question alone seemed to bother people. Many only pushed the point that since they sell thats all that really matters. To each his own as I am just a small time hobbyist who likes working with herps. I just find it interesting to learn as much as I can about these guys. Some like to share info and some do not. Life goes on.

Rich Hebron

but even purchasing your animals from a "known breeder" whos reputation is impeccable and then four years later when you breed these animals and the known breeder doesn't remember selling you animals!!! Think this ever happens? So again, it sometimes comes down to nothing more then trust.

Dan P

>>but even purchasing your animals from a "known breeder" whos reputation is impeccable and then four years later when you breed these animals and the known breeder doesn't remember selling you animals!!! Think this ever happens?

LOL. Nah, that never happens. There's a case where a breeder even denies ever having worked with the bloodline of bullsnakes that I've seen signed receipts ...from his "company."

Never happens, does it?
KJ

"There's a case where a breeder even denies ever having worked with the bloodline of bullsnakes that I've seen signed receipts ...from his "company."

I had a vendor at a show tell me he couldn't remember where he got the "P. ruthveni" that he was selling. When pressed he eventually said "Oh yeah, I remember. I got them from Trumbower."

Hmmm.
-----
International Snakes Meetup
International Herpetology Meetup

That's freaky. Makes you wonder if he didn't suspect them himself, huh? I feel sorry that Trumbower got treisked like that. He'll never live it down.

Here is my funny story:

I saw a post on here months ago by a breeder talking about his ruthveni hatchlings. I emailed him and asked where he got them from. I wanted to verify them, find out they were pure, and possibly get some babies if they were from a pure line I didn't already have. The breeder's reply was that he did NOT reveal his sources. I thanked him and informed him that I couldn't acquire ruthveni that I couldn't verify myself - even though I trusted his judgement. He seemed to have gotten upset, and then he told me that he wouldn't have sold to me anyway because I wasn't part of his clique. About 2 months later, I find out that Daryl and I owned the adults that produced the ones he now owns....lol.

OK, so they can verify now be traced good enough for me, but if I would have purchased them, I might have been inbreeding them backl to one of their parents without even knowing it. That doesn't sound good, does it? This is another reason why The Gint was right when he said to know your breeder, your breeder's breeder, and even his breeder.

No harm down, I didn't get mad because he didn't give me further info (but I got upset because I was hopeful that it was a new bloodline that I could maybe verify), and everything turned out OK in the end.

KJ

but even purchasing your animals from a "known breeder" whos reputation is impeccable and then four years later when you breed these animals and the known breeder doesn't remember selling you animals!!!

Dan, I believe that could happen from a known breeder who's reputation is impeccable but I have been thinking hard and unfortunately I do not know any "known breeders" with an impeccable reputation. Guess we can start a new thread on one's interpretation of what the term "known breeder" means to each of us as well as one on what constitutes another to be impeccable to begin with. Thats really all we do is play games with meanings when the subject of locale comes up. If it all comes down to plan ole trust without question then we as hobbyists fail miserably in passing accurate information to those that become new to this hobby on a daily basis.

Rich Hebron

I wonder what the record is?

I bet he's close...
His yearling daughter has passed up my 2 year old male.

Eating med rats already.
Truely some big snake genes.
I'd hate to even breed her with my puny male in a couple years.

I noticed you didn't reply when I asked you to keep me in mind if you decide to sell that HOSS !!

LOL