Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Ok, here is 3 pictures with both females that laid eggs. 1 female is on eggs still, we are letting her incubate them because several are slugs and we have eggs in the inccbator too. See which works better.

So either that female dwarf burm is 7' and I have monster ball pythons, or she really is 5' huh? The ball is the only female I didnt have breeding, she is in "blue" shedding and is about 5.5' She isnt my biggest ball either.

The other female burm already laid eggs and she is the one in most of our pictures showing a gravid dwarf.

Next, I will try to show the dwarf female on eggs with an 8' female normal burm.

For more pictures please check our webpage.
Hope these pictures work.

Thanks
Savannah
dwarf burm page

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More New Imported Morphs Than Any Where Else.
Savannah
Morph Specialties
New Imported Morphs
morphspecialties@yahoo.com(New Email Soon)
morphspecialties.com(Under Construction)

Awsome pics. My fingers are still crossed. Freaks of nature do happen. Contact me in 6 years when the prices drop into the 250 dollar range.

>>Ok, here is 3 pictures with both females that laid eggs. 1 female is on eggs still, we are letting her incubate them because several are slugs and we have eggs in the inccbator too. See which works better.
>>
>>So either that female dwarf burm is 7' and I have monster ball pythons, or she really is 5' huh? The ball is the only female I didnt have breeding, she is in "blue" shedding and is about 5.5' She isnt my biggest ball either.
>>
>>The other female burm already laid eggs and she is the one in most of our pictures showing a gravid dwarf.
>>
>>Next, I will try to show the dwarf female on eggs with an 8' female normal burm.
>>
>>For more pictures please check our webpage.
>>Hope these pictures work.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>Thanks
>>Savannah
>>dwarf burm page
>>
>>-----
>>More New Imported Morphs Than Any Where Else.
>>Savannah
>>Morph Specialties
>>New Imported Morphs
>>morphspecialties@yahoo.com(New Email Soon)
>>morphspecialties.com(Under Construction)
>>
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Thomas Jones
aligatorhunter@earthlink.net
(252) 757-3879

My Wife Ran Off With My Best Friend, I Sure Do Miss HIM!!!

Ok,. looks good. Thanks for going to the time and trouble to get something for definite size comparison. I am now 90% convinced. I apologize for doubting your original claims, but I'm sure you have seen some of the claims made in here before. I genuinely wish you the best of luck on producing healthy babies and you can jot me down as a potential future customer.

>>Ok, here is 3 pictures with both females that laid eggs. 1 female is on eggs still, we are letting her incubate them because several are slugs and we have eggs in the inccbator too. See which works better.
>>
>>So either that female dwarf burm is 7' and I have monster ball pythons, or she really is 5' huh? The ball is the only female I didnt have breeding, she is in "blue" shedding and is about 5.5' She isnt my biggest ball either.
>>
>>The other female burm already laid eggs and she is the one in most of our pictures showing a gravid dwarf.
>>
>>Next, I will try to show the dwarf female on eggs with an 8' female normal burm.
>>
>>For more pictures please check our webpage.
>>Hope these pictures work.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>Thanks
>>Savannah
>>dwarf burm page
>>
>>-----
>>More New Imported Morphs Than Any Where Else.
>>Savannah
>>Morph Specialties
>>New Imported Morphs
>>morphspecialties@yahoo.com(New Email Soon)
>>morphspecialties.com(Under Construction)
>>
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Human "progress" equates to nature's demise.

Brian, I genuinely thank you for being a stand up guy and apologizing, really. Now that you know, Im sure you could see where I was coming from. We worked very hard and put out a ton of money to be the first and still the only ones with them. Its been very stressful to make this happen. A good project to go public with a new business huh? Thanks again and I will continue to post updates here. WHen babies hatch, will let you all know..

Thanks again
Savannah
-----
More New Imported Morphs Than Any Where Else.
Savannah
Morph Specialties
New Imported Morphs
morphspecialties@yahoo.com(New Email Soon)
morphspecialties.com(Under Construction)

You bet. No problem, really.

Looking forward to hearing from you. My email is BrianSmithReptiles@hotmail.com

>>Brian, I genuinely thank you for being a stand up guy and apologizing, really. Now that you know, Im sure you could see where I was coming from. We worked very hard and put out a ton of money to be the first and still the only ones with them. Its been very stressful to make this happen. A good project to go public with a new business huh? Thanks again and I will continue to post updates here. WHen babies hatch, will let you all know..
>>
>>Thanks again
>>Savannah
>>-----
>>More New Imported Morphs Than Any Where Else.
>>Savannah
>>Morph Specialties
>>New Imported Morphs
>>morphspecialties@yahoo.com(New Email Soon)
>>morphspecialties.com(Under Construction)
>>
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Human "progress" equates to nature's demise.

Are you keeping the locality of these animals secret (island form?)? Any plans to import any more? What's the general history behind this form?

(I hesitate to call it a morph here by the way, because I don't see dwarfism as a 'morph' in the sense usually used in herpetoculture. I am of course assuming that these animals come from a region where all animals are dwarfs. I hope you see my point here. I don't see say a Hog Island boa as a morph per se)

Its not a morph, you are right, we dont call it a morph either. We dont know the exact locality. But we haver imported all the animal found, there wasnt anymore. We sent a lot of money to get more and offered more and they couldnt find anymore. The locality they come from, the natives eat them. There are probably more but deeper in the jungle.

The history is they found some in the wild breeding and my supplier told me, we bought them all. What tlse o you want to know?? Look at our web page for more info and then feel free to ask more questions.

Thanks so much,
Savannah
-----
More New Imported Morphs Than Any Where Else.
Savannah
Morph Specialties
New Imported Morphs
morphspecialties@yahoo.com(New Email Soon)
morphspecialties.com(Under Construction)

OK, I will admit first that Im still not even close to convinced. I am an admitted skeptic, nothing personal.

My question is why not wait until you have truly proven out these animals as truly dwarf before marketing them (which you seem to be doing on this forum itself)? I understand that there can be a lot of money to be made by the babies but the converse is that if they don't prove out, you would most likely be utterly ruined.
So are you planning on selling the hatchling babies as true dwarf burms?

Why dont you say that to the many that are selling dwarf retics. Including the supers and the patternless? How can a normal sized baby come out of an egg the size of a ball python egg? Come on. They (big breeders/dealers) sold dwarf retics before they had babies. Im not worried about being ruined, I know what they are. I already have reservations for babies. A lot of people believe it, sorry if you dont. I showing pictures just like everyone else does. This is the biggest thing in burms recently, people want to know, Im not using this forum to sell, but to share.

Have a good day

Savannah
-----
More New Imported Morphs Than Any Where Else.
Savannah
Morph Specialties
New Imported Morphs
morphspecialties@yahoo.com(New Email Soon)
morphspecialties.com(Under Construction)

I dont say that to the dwarf retic sellers because their animals are proven commodities. Your animals are not. You should NOT get offended by people who are skeptical of your burms. Every new animal gets the same treatment, especially when they are from less than a big breeder. My point is that no one sells first born animals without having proved them out, especially without taking a HUGE risk. Sure, there are people who like to speculate about an animal so they are welcome to spend their annual salary on a "not-so-sure-thing".
I have not seen any babies much less one coming out of an egg the size of a BP's. So far, I personally havent seen any pictures that couldnt be easily constructed.
Again, do not get uptight or take ANY of this personally. Its not about you but until I see something concrete, Ill be skeptical. I do, however, admire your willingness to risk your reputation on unproven animals.

"Why dont you say that to the many that are selling dwarf retics. Including the supers and the patternless? How can a normal sized baby come out of an egg the size of a ball python egg? Come on. They (big breeders/dealers) sold dwarf retics before they had babies. Im not worried about being ruined, I know what they are. I already have reservations for babies. A lot of people believe it, sorry if you dont. I showing pictures just like everyone else does. This is the biggest thing in burms recently, people want to know, Im not using this forum to sell, but to share."

I know this branch of this debate/issue is between the two of you now, but I feel the need to say a few things. No one was more skeptical of the reality of these claims more than me. Sure, every one of those original pictures could have been faked or doctored in some way. But when I saw and closely scrutinized the pictures of these snakes with the ball python in them, I fell off the fence. These snakes were even smaller than I could have ever imagined. In addition to that, Savannah said the ball python was 5 1/2 feet. That's a big ball python. If she was prone to exaggeration it seems she would have stated that the ball was 3 or 4 feet so as to make the burmese appear even smaller. But obviously there is no need. I am mostly convinced now that these are indeed dwarf burmese based on this. There is no way in hell that a stunted burmese could be that small and breed. In addition to this, if these babies hatch out at 12 or 14 inches,. I don't think there is any need to mature them before claiming they are dwarfs. I think it will be obvious. I am very excited about this now. I can't wait to see the babies, whether for sale or not and I can't wait to see how these integrade with the existing morphs. Not only will it help immessurably in the abandoned burmese capacity, it will enter into the equation new genes and thus strengthen the gene pool of said morphs.

And Savannah,.... if I were you,. I would not name a price but would run an auction for the offspring you decide to sell. This is HUGE. (ironic pun not intended)

>>I dont say that to the dwarf retic sellers because their animals are proven commodities. Your animals are not. You should NOT get offended by people who are skeptical of your burms. Every new animal gets the same treatment, especially when they are from less than a big breeder. My point is that no one sells first born animals without having proved them out, especially without taking a HUGE risk. Sure, there are people who like to speculate about an animal so they are welcome to spend their annual salary on a "not-so-sure-thing".
>>I have not seen any babies much less one coming out of an egg the size of a BP's. So far, I personally havent seen any pictures that couldnt be easily constructed.
>>Again, do not get uptight or take ANY of this personally. Its not about you but until I see something concrete, Ill be skeptical. I do, however, admire your willingness to risk your reputation on unproven animals.
>>
>>
>>
>>"Why dont you say that to the many that are selling dwarf retics. Including the supers and the patternless? How can a normal sized baby come out of an egg the size of a ball python egg? Come on. They (big breeders/dealers) sold dwarf retics before they had babies. Im not worried about being ruined, I know what they are. I already have reservations for babies. A lot of people believe it, sorry if you dont. I showing pictures just like everyone else does. This is the biggest thing in burms recently, people want to know, Im not using this forum to sell, but to share."
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Human "progress" equates to nature's demise.

Where did you see this burm laying eggs? I must have missed that pic because all I see is a small burm in the same cage as a ball python. Who's to say the burm is not a 8 month old male?
I still have yet to see any true evidence of it being a dwarf.

One of the pictures has the same snake that was pictured laying what appeared to be viable eggs. It has the identical pattern. I assume this is the snake that the eggs were taken from and are currently in an incubator. The smaller female is wrapped around slugs in a manner that only a female would lay in while incubating eggs. See the pic with the burm tightly wrapped and laying rather tall and bunched up? That can only be an incubating female. I assume you have bred burmese before or have certainly seen a female incubating eggs. It's very distinctive physical behavior. Go look at that picture again. It looks genuine to me.

>>Where did you see this burm laying eggs? I must have missed that pic because all I see is a small burm in the same cage as a ball python. Who's to say the burm is not a 8 month old male?
>>I still have yet to see any true evidence of it being a dwarf.
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Human "progress" equates to nature's demise.

Nope, I have not bred them but I still see no evidence of a dwarf burmese other than a small snake sitting on something with a slug nearby. Certainly doesnt mean anything.

Oh but it does mean something. If you had seen an incubating female before you would know what I was talking about. Wait and see what other breeders that have allowed their females to sit on eggs say about the way that snake is bunched around whatever mass is inside. It could even be a flower pot she is on, that part isn't important, but the WAY she is laying is unmistakable incubation position. That is what is important here. Trust me JDP I wouldn't be so quick to change my mind if I didn't see ample evidence in those pictures. Namely THAT picture.

>>Nope, I have not bred them but I still see no evidence of a dwarf burmese other than a small snake sitting on something with a slug nearby. Certainly doesnt mean anything.
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Human "progress" equates to nature's demise.

My point is that Im a skeptic and pictures can be very deceiving, especially with 5 or 6 figure payoffs at stake.

I know. I'm a skeptic too. Probably the biggest in the bunch. But I know what I see here and I am always the first to admit when I am wrong. Although, to be very accurate I am only about 90% sure that this is genuine. There's still an iota of doubt and skepticism. But that female in that picture IS in incubation mode. If this were somehow a hoax or a con that picture would be fairly difficult to conjure up on such short notice. And it is so simple that I tend to seriously doubt that that is a fake. I can think of a thousand better ways to fake a photo than to use a ball python in a dirty cage, lol. That's what makes this seem honest too. The simplicity of it. No miniature coffee cups,. no miniature light bulbs. Just a simple ball python. And a big one at that. And on real newspaper where one could easily reference scale.

No,.. everything indicates this is genuine.

>>My point is that Im a skeptic and pictures can be very deceiving, especially with 5 or 6 figure payoffs at stake.
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Human "progress" equates to nature's demise.

Here is a few more shots..

JDP, go to www.morphspecialties.com/dwarf.html for pictures. If you would like a specific picture I can take it for you. Tell me something that I wouldnt have a picvture of, like a tennis shoes or something in the picture, I will do it.

Thanks Savannah

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More New Imported Morphs Than Any Where Else.
Savannah
Morph Specialties
New Imported Morphs
morphspecialties@yahoo.com(New Email Soon)
morphspecialties.com(Under Construction)

As I said before, do NOT take it personally. Its not intended that way at all. Theres not many pictures that will convince me until this animal becomes mainstream.

JDP is absolutely right; do NOT take his skepticism personally. I, too, have many doubts despite some of the great pics you have posted and I am EXTREMELY SKEPTICAL of this new "line" of burm that supposedly stays small. I, like JDP, will probably not be convinced until I see multiple generations of healthy, small burms being offered. If this is in fact a naturally occurring "dwarf" race of burmese python, it would be a welcome option for the many burm owners who should probably own a smaller snake. Just out of curiousity, where did your original "dwarfs" come from; that is, what locality are they from and is there anyone else working with them (whether here in the U.S. or overseas)? How many "dwarfs" are you working with and what is your oldest adult? I have many more questions but the bottom line is that it is okay for folks like JDP and I to be skeptical; doesn't mean we think you are lying, just being cautiously optimistic. And I HAVE BRED BURMS many times as a sidenote.

Rob Carmichael, Director/Curator of the Wildlife Discovery Center
City of Lake Forest Parks & Recreation (IL)

Its not that we think you are lying, at all. For wild caught animals that you purchased, you cant possibly have a 100% certainty that the animals are genetic morphs. That is where my skepticism comes from. Once several years of "dwarf burms" are bred and proven to be, in fact, "dwarfs", I will subscribe.

On another note.....actually, I will post a new thread on this one for thoughts...its a topic worthy of thought and debate.

The original labyrinth burmese pythons that Bob Clark imported were extremely small, perhaps as small as these. Now I am sure someone will correct me if I am wrong about this but I believe he was thinking the labyrinths were a type of dwarf burmese because they were suppose to be several years old and very small. However, once they got to his place and got on the "Bob Clark Feeding Regimen" they grew into normal sized (for burms!) adults.

I'm not saying that this is the case with these snakes but I am certainly going to remain sceptical until the babies are produced and then -don't- grow into typically sized adult burms. Just some food for thought.
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Peace-
Kelli Hammack
H.I.S.S.
email me

"This is the biggest thing in burms recently, people want to know, Im not using this forum to sell, but to share."
-- Stop the silliness. You are doing the closest thing to advertising on this forum. It's called building hype. You admitted it yourself you've got lots of money invested in this project. Why not make a big flashy entrance? Perhaps what is causing people to be hostile towards you is exactly this. Although I won't invest in such animals at this point, it would be really cool, for the big python industry, if this thing pans out the way you profess it will.

Usually people in the buisness are hobbyist also..you gotta remember that.

I'm sure MorphSpecialties is excited about this.

Advertisement in this forum isnt going to sell these,They will sell themselves.

There is no need to hype up something like this IMO..they are going to be awesome.

Well, I've been watching this whole thing from the sidelines and not posting anything about it because of my skeptical nature (it's hard not to be skeptical in this day and age) but these recent photos are starting to sway me also. There's no doubt in my mind that you have a VERY small burm there incubating eggs. Now the next questions that still need to be answered are: 1. Will these eggs hatch into dwarf burms? (possibly because of egg size but not definately until they have had time to grow) and also 2. When these dwarves are bred to morphs (from regular sized burms) will the resulting offspring also be dwarves? While I'm still somewhat skeptical, I'm certainly rooting for you and definately feel this will be a HUGE step for you as well as the herp and burm community. If this works out for you I see you doing ALOT of business with the big time breeders out there (definately a good thing for your businesses future.) Best of luck, Scott.

P.S. The kicker for me was the adult ball with the tiny burm incubating it's eggs. Very impressive.
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Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere.
Martin Luther King, Jr.

"In any civilized society, it is every citizen's responsibility to obey just laws.
But at the same time, it is every citizen's responsibility to disobey unjust laws."
—Martin Luther King Jr

Thank you scott. I appreciate it. Of course we all have to wait until the babies hatch. We wouldnt sell them until they have eaten for a while anyway, we would see how fast they grow. We will find out soon. Hey look at the dwarf retics for answers on mixing the dwarf burms into morphs. They do it both ways, breeding dwarf males into big females and breeding dwarf females into to big males. Wilbanks once said we are trying to limit the size of the adults not the size of the babies. But regardless all the breeders that are selling dwarf retics either albino, tiger or hets, they are selling for much more than normal morphs and are being sold as dwarf. Im excited and cant wait to mix them, we will find out later this season on what the mixes will look like.

Here is a picture of dwarf female #1 gravid. She already laid and her eggs incubating.

Thanks again
Savannah

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More New Imported Morphs Than Any Where Else.
Savannah
Morph Specialties
New Imported Morphs
morphspecialties@yahoo.com(New Email Soon)
morphspecialties.com(Under Construction)

Here in Massachusetts they are not legal (without a permit) so I have no experience with them. I may have to do some reading up on the dwarf retics. What happens (regarding size) when dwarves are bred with normal sized retics? Anyway, I look forward to seeing what the future holds for your animals. I may be able to go beyond my one burm limit . Take care, Scott.
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Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere.
Martin Luther King, Jr.

"In any civilized society, it is every citizen's responsibility to obey just laws.
But at the same time, it is every citizen's responsibility to disobey unjust laws."
—Martin Luther King Jr