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This was a response I wrote to part of Ginter's response made in a previous thread. I felt this may do better as a new thread since we seem to keep coming back to threads that get out of hand from asking of all things, a question on specifics when it comes to locale of anything.

"Know your breeder, know your breeders breeder, know his/her breeder.....Do not buy ruthven pines from someone who can not or will not give you info on their snakes if having real ruthven pines is important to you. Good luck, it is a mess out there" Ginter

As I would like to think this should apply to all herpers interested in any "real" locale herps as well. It most surely is a mess out there and one that I believe does no benifit for the animals we enjoy. I have been following these forums for many years and noticed though just asking the question of where ones stock originated from has begun much flames. Any true hobbyist should be willing to share this info. as it is in my opinion what this hobby should be about. Communication and the dissemination of information so other individuals can learn and enjoy the natural diversity exhibited by these awesome creatures amongst various habitats. How could wanting to know such info. be the source of such abrasiveness.

If these issues matter to you, I agree that one should move on and find a suitable hobbyist that shares your same views. Not only can you potentially acquire herps that you may enjoy but also acquire additional friends that you can share your enjoyment of this hobby with.

Rich Hebron

: Any true hobbyist should be willing to share this info.

In a perfect world yes this would be true but I can think of specific instances where a breeder might view it as a hassle to answer/verify questions and inquires by every and anyone who might be interested in animals that ultimately originated from him. Take the case of my Bedford County VA corns. The guy who collected the founding stock is no longer in the hobby and doesn't want to be hassled with inquiries. From a previous post, I gather that John Cherry too has a similar situation. That we honor the feelings of these people and don't give out their contact info for you or anyone else doesn't mean that we are not "true hobbyists." Certainly, you do not believe that respecting another's desire for privacy is mutually exclusive to being a "true hobbyist?"

As I have tried to explain before, it isn't the want or desire for locality information that is "the source of such abrasiveness." What is ill receive however are unfair characterizations of those who either don't seem to share your views or acquiesce to your exacting standard. I find it hard to believe that you can't see how unfairly characterizing breeders as "those people" who needs to be avoided might garner a bit of an abrasive response! Would it be fair to say to me that because I don't give out the information on my VA corns that I should label them as generics, that I shouldn't claim locality status or worse face suspicion that they are actually hybrids? Should I cheerfully receive recommendations to euphemize my animals so they don't contaminate a gene pool with the supporting information "real" hobbyists provide?

Have I been abrasive at times most certainly, sarcastic, always, but I don't ever recall that I've run another down for their views or denigrated their stock or suggest they be avoided on a public forum. I've questioned views with either an eye towards understanding or to simply put out an alternate view and keep the conversation going. I see this as give and take and though I can't speak for others, can say I've at least gained an appreciation for a wider array of views as a result.

One upside that I got from your second telling of this soga, is that keeping and breeding reptiles has evidently become so mainstream that we can now limit our friendships and associations solely to those who hold the " same views." And here I thought that we all needed to stick together.

be a perfect world or as close to one as possible. "Thinking or saying something doesn't matter because we don't live in a perfect world" is a defeatist view I would think. You brought up Tony, there may be instances that a person or persons wishes to remain anonymous for personal or other reasons and if that's the case with your corns or any other snakes than that's the way it will be. I don't have a problem with that unless I was trying to get a pair of those and wanted the information of where you got them. I will say that every person who produced or sold me a snake they got from a breeder will be contacted if needed when someone wants to verify anything regarding my obtaining that snake from them. I really hadn't thought of it as disturbing someone when I called and talked snakes with them and about the snakes I got from them. I agree that noone should be put down or judged less in terms of giving out a name of the person who produced the snake, but the fact of not giving out information definitely taints the bloodline of a person who wants snakes in their collection that have been verified well enough to the w/c breeders. The view I'm getting is that many of us are supporting not having to give out information or data rather than let's try to get it everytime and then there will be a special circumstance that may crop up. I may be wrong, but my view or understanding of the abrasiveness stems from the fact that there seems to be a view that information doesn't have to be a big priority anymore. It may not be; one person doesn't dictate that, but it is ashame that we seem to have lost soo much because we didn't want to disturb the very person who collected and produced offspring from it. I would think sharing that experience would not be disturbing them. I feel disappointed and disturbed that we are creating too big a gap to pure and locale specimens by accepting the fact that someone doesn't want to tell us where he collected the snake and who he bred it to. Yes, Tony we don't live in a perfect world and there will be gaps between those who would like to and those who accept the imperfect. I'm not saying one is right or one is wrong. Good luck.

Terry Parks

>>: Any true hobbyist should be willing to share this info.
>>
>>In a perfect world yes this would be true but I can think of specific instances where a breeder might view it as a hassle to answer/verify questions and inquires by every and anyone who might be interested in animals that ultimately originated from him. Take the case of my Bedford County VA corns. The guy who collected the founding stock is no longer in the hobby and doesn't want to be hassled with inquiries. From a previous post, I gather that John Cherry too has a similar situation. That we honor the feelings of these people and don't give out their contact info for you or anyone else doesn't mean that we are not "true hobbyists." Certainly, you do not believe that respecting another's desire for privacy is mutually exclusive to being a "true hobbyist?"
>>
>>As I have tried to explain before, it isn't the want or desire for locality information that is "the source of such abrasiveness." What is ill receive however are unfair characterizations of those who either don't seem to share your views or acquiesce to your exacting standard. I find it hard to believe that you can't see how unfairly characterizing breeders as "those people" who needs to be avoided might garner a bit of an abrasive response! Would it be fair to say to me that because I don't give out the information on my VA corns that I should label them as generics, that I shouldn't claim locality status or worse face suspicion that they are actually hybrids? Should I cheerfully receive recommendations to euphemize my animals so they don't contaminate a gene pool with the supporting information "real" hobbyists provide?
>>
>>Have I been abrasive at times most certainly, sarcastic, always, but I don't ever recall that I've run another down for their views or denigrated their stock or suggest they be avoided on a public forum. I've questioned views with either an eye towards understanding or to simply put out an alternate view and keep the conversation going. I see this as give and take and though I can't speak for others, can say I've at least gained an appreciation for a wider array of views as a result.
>>
>>One upside that I got from your second telling of this soga, is that keeping and breeding reptiles has evidently become so mainstream that we can now limit our friendships and associations solely to those who hold the " same views." And here I thought that we all needed to stick together.

"An optimist says we live in the best possible of all worlds. A pessimist fears that this is true."

I do wonder why people compare something to how it would exist if things were perfect and steer away from that zone. It's like we are to accept it the way it is now and not strive for perfection. You can't get there so why try and spend the effort. Maybe that's the "apathy" that is around these days. LOL. Maybe we're gettting too lazy to go back and find what we need even if there's a chance it may be lost forever. Here's a pic of Ugmo.

Terry Parks

I moved to Texas because Texans say this IS Utopia.....lol.

because thats the same reason I moved to Florida

Rich Hebron

because I've heard Texans call Texas Utopia too. LOL. The state has quite a few herp people I trade emails and talk to off and on. If they are representative of Texas than it's pretty close to Utopia. LOL Here's a female hypo bull that Del produced in 2002.

Terry Parks

well put.

Rich Hebron

In the generalization of it all it does seem my point has come across in some sense to you. We can always find something to drag this on in such a way as to debate every typed word. As with the ending of your response below.

"One upside that I got from your second telling of this soga, is that keeping and breeding reptiles has evidently become so mainstream that we can now limit our friendships and associations solely to those who hold the " same views." And here I thought that we all needed to stick together."

I believe your above response was in regards to my final statements below......

If these issues matter to you, I agree that one should move on and find a suitable hobbyist that shares your same views. Not only can you potentially acquire herps that you may enjoy but also acquire additional friends that you can share your enjoyment of this hobby with.

It was used in the sense to acquire your "stock" from a suitable hobbyist or one that you find suitable as well as acquire "additional" friends. I thought it was clear stated in such a way with the flow of my post. I'm not preaching we should not stick together but in the same sense why would I want to acquire hybrids if I do not want to work with hybrids.

Maybe we just misunderstand each others way of phrasing things, but for some reason I think you do know where I have always stood with this issue but somehow try to find ways to have something to write. Instead of picking apart what is written, why not share your own views of where you stand and stick to them.

Anyway, instead of addressing each one of your responses so that we both agree on what my meaning was I will move on as I noticed and have become part of a thread that is making much more sense with what I feel then the thread I started here. I guess my writing skills suck. I'd like to blame it on my "inner city" schooling but in all honesty I hate writing.

It is the P. Ruthveni thread above this one. If ever a better example of what I speak of exists please bring it up as maybe we can all finally see eye to eye that there is a clear need for us to stick together. With readily providing info. for all those new to this hobby to get off to a good start in whatever direction they enjoy or just to spread some knowledge of this hobby that we all are suppose to be enjoying.

I do somehow feel though when I answer thread responses to you it is no longer the animals that are the concern but ego. Might just be my interpretation of how I read what you write but then again as I said at the begining maybe we just misunderstand each others way of phrasing things. I am though still thrilled we are free to state our opinions openly so that maybe we can all eventually understand what this (hobby) means to each other.

Rich Hebron

Rich your writing is fine. Actually most of your posts are quite articulate. I know you're feeling picked upon but I generally only respond when I feel that you've (intentionally or not) made sweeping statements that "I" (me alone, my 2 cents my humble opinion) feel unfairly characterize those who don't seem to hold your view. My motive in doing so is only to encourage the possible entertainment of a more moderate view even if my style for achieving this isn't always the best. The sarcastic ending to my last post no only underminded the point I was trying to make but was out of line. I apologize.

An enlightment on your view would be nice since I really do not know where you stand on any of this. I may have blinders on but I have only noticed one aspect you seem to keep focusing on and that is people being attacked for not giving out names or info. in regards to herps "they list for sale" as locale specific.

I actually have never seen these guys (or gals) attacked for doing this (being silent), but I have seen others attacked openly in forums for just asking such a question that is poised toward many of these breeders. They though are not attacked by the actual breeder the question is poised toward but others who feel because some of these breeders have high annual sales that one should not even consider questioning them to begin with. What I do see from time to time is that instead of one of the breeders responding to the question at hand suddenly start posting to address those that spoke out for them. Almost to the point of condoning their actions.

That maybe acceptable to some but not to me when I am looking for locale specific herps. I like the info. that goes along with the origin of the herp at hand. I like the history. I believe though If it all comes down to plan ole trust without question then we as hobbyists fail miserably in passing accurate information to those that become new to this hobby on a daily basis.

I can understand you being a business man, of sorts in this hobby with promoting shows, that there is another side to all this I may not be familiar with. You have dealt with many breeders over the years in such a commercial fashion so some of these guys are probably personal friends of yours but on the other hand there are still many hobbyists that are not only focusing on the bottom line (if they are at all) but of the herps themselves.

It's become very easy for many though to find info. on which herps are a better investment with a possible higher return.

Where does someone go who is new to this hobby where as locale specific herps truely matter to them? How does one get off to the right foot if they are? Where do you get the answers without asking questions?

Unfortunately what "I" do see happening is many that have gotten into this hobby many years ago sincerely for the sake of the herps have taken a current blind eye toward those brave enough to even ask of them any questions aside from what they may still have available for sale during any season.

The point I am trying to make here (I'm so wordy) is if locale specific herps are important to you, then ask away. If people do not respond move on. You will eventually find those who do find importance in keeping data and enjoyment is sharing information. I personally do not believe though it is people newer to this hobby that are having a problem with sticking together as much as I have noticed some of the established breeders for becoming reclusive in their nature with sharing information aside from how poor or good sales have been with others.

It makes one wonder if they are truely concerned about the lineage of their herps at all or is that only for the select few they are willing to share info. with provided they do not share that same info. with others who they sell herps to? I would imagine though if one was so concerned about info. on lineage and locale to begin with they themselves would require that same info. themselves before they made thier original purchase. Why then would anyone expect others not to do the same when purchasing herps from them?

They and them is used solely as a generic for what I term as some breeders and not anyone directly. Just a trend that seems to close to mainstream and I hope we do all stick together. There are many "today" around this country who are trying very hard to make sure the keeping of hybrids, morphs and even locale specific herps do become a thing of the past. In my opinion if we start closing the doors amongst each other now with the dissimenation of information we are also closing the many doors to the future of not only the survival of many of the herps but of ourselves.

Rich Hebron

My belowpost is being made in good spirits and NOT intended as an attack on anyone. I was in some of the earlier threads on this topic. I agree with both sides (if you want to look at it as having two sides) on some issues. I've always felt that my opinions were a little mis-understood in those earlier posts. This is mostly inended as a clarification of what I believe. I'm not trying to convert anyone here or justify anything.

>>Take the case of my Bedford County VA corns. The guy who collected the founding stock is no longer in the hobby and doesn't want to be hassled with inquiries.

Or has sense past away....OR the collector isn't even a herper. I know the problems. Sometimes you can't even get a receipt, or have a documented email (some snakes predate that, don't they), etc. BUT, there is a difference, don't you think, between a guy saying "I got them from a guy. I won't tell you who. You shouldn't ask me about it" and a guy saying "Man, I wish I could get you to the collector of these, but his name is J. Brown. He isn't a herper, but I got an animal from him that he found in his yard. My wife and I drove over there and picked up the snake from him back in around '99."

Neither is perfect, but which one would YOU trust more? Many of my animals, the second option is all I could give out, too. The deal is, I'M HAPPY with that data because they convinced me that they were pure. I keep snakes for me. I might not accept that from someone else (I haven't in some cases) unless I completely trust the breeders judgement in who HE trusts to get locality animals from. That is where trusting your breeder comes from. I won't go into examples - good or bad - because we are all familiar with some types of them.

> That we honor the feelings of these people and don't give out their contact info for you or anyone else doesn't mean that we are not "true hobbyists." Certainly, you do not believe that respecting another's desire for privacy is mutually exclusive to being a "true hobbyist?"

I know this question isn't directed at me, but I agree with both sides of this issue. Where I get upset is when a breeder gets mad because you don't take their word for it after they refuse to give you more data. It is their right - AND DUTY - to fulfill their obligations to their friends, but it is the buyer's right to accept that or not. It is everyone's responsibility to remain civil and polite. I know I can get abrasive at times (lol) - it's a character flaw of mine that I've gotten a better handle on each year as I get older. Heck, if you knew me in high school.... Well, THAT'S one knickname I won't put in a public forum....lol.

>>I see this as give and take and though I can't speak for others, can say I've at least gained an appreciation for a wider array of views as a result.

That there may be the most important thing we can gather from these forums in my opinion. I'll admit it, I like to argue. (Does anyone want to stand-up and deny that I don't?) It is usually meaningless. I almost never remember the players a week later. Disagreement is how we learn. What can you learn from someone that agrees with you completely based on data you already know? Not much. This has nothing to do with the locale issue, though.

Just for clarification, I'd like to say that my opinions are pretty rigid, too. I can respect a person who keeps his sources quite out of respect for their sources. I'm in some of those same boats. Heck, I LIKE that type of person since I feel safe trusting them with MY information. What I always had a problem with is someone getting mad because they were questioned on something. WHO HERE IS ABOVE REPROACH? Man, that would have to be one BIG dang ego to think you are so much better than everyone else that they don't even think you have the right to ask them for verification. Obviously, I don't mean you, Cherry, Ginter, etc. in this post. I have one person in mind who I've only seen on this forum a couple of times since its inception. He likes to say he left because of the bickering, but he never used this forum in the first place....lol. Those that know me well know who I have in mind.

The secret here is to get what YOU want, don't attack someone if they don't have what you want, and don't be upset if someone wants more data than you can supply. Why the hurt feelings if you have to pass up a purchase or a sell because the buyer wants something the seller doesn't have? I just don't get THAT type of animosity. Not that anyone specifically here has shown that, but I have seen it happen via the internet and at shows.

KJ

KJ

KJ that's two timely replies from you in 24 hours, thank you for the clarification, honesty and answering some of the questions. I too like to think I see both sides and no I don't get mad when somebody passes on the locality info I have. I do get torqued however when I or others are attacked at shows or on the net because info/or phenotype or whatever doesn't support another's "higher" standards. Why I've taken it onto myself to point it out when it happens I don't know but with only 24 hours in each day I beginning to wonder if its the best use of time. Then again I did point out to a big locality guy on the milksnake forum that he might have let his enthusiasm temporarily override his good judgment. To see his response and how it ended the infighting follow the link provided:

http://forums.kingsnake.com/view.php?id=206456,206456

As for Terry P's assertion that I'm a pessimist, I'm not the one who said we can't get consensus on terminology so I'm not gona try! Actually, I agree with TP that we should strive to be more than we are. I sunk a small fortune into the promotion of a small regional all captive-bred show when others told me it couldn't be done. After a nine year run I sold the show and only broke even monetarily however I think that I helped kick expectations of what a local reptile show can or should up a notch or two, at least in my region. To me this outcome is well worth the effort even if my methods and motives where not always understood or appreciated along the way.

As with the show, my methods and motives of distraction on this locality thing are equally misunderstood. Often as not my questions and statements are intended to evoke further thought on the subject. Questioning our own opinions and preconceived notions is a first step towards a greater and broader understanding. I'd like to see this locality discussion move away from a bunch of guys with conflicting personal views towards exploration of a possible system for documenting founding stock and tracking the captive offspring. Given all this new technology at our fingertips it shouldn't be hard to do. Would it be possible to gain 100% consensus no but that isn't a reason not to do it. A prime reason that we haven't already moved towards this obvious goal may be that the info we're now satisfied with wouldn't be acceptable under a broader and formalized system. If that is true, and I hope it isn't, then Rich H would be right, this isn't about the animals its largely about ego and I would stand a guilty as the next guy.

I don't think you're a pessimist in the least and would debate anyone who did Tony. A pessimist already thinks the bad outwieighs the good and there's nothing that can be done. I just thought a statement that "this isn't a perfect world so we accept what we have" is a defeatist view. I've actually paraphrased what you wrote so I could illustrate a point and would give a separation from your statement. Your experience with establishing and getting a captive bred show rooted locally is not accomplished by a pessimist. I don't have a problem with you and/or anyone getting "torqued" if they are personally attacked at a show, on the net, or anyplace for that matter. I'm glad you post on the forums and share your thoughts and views. Your posts most certainly contribute to the threads and this forum. I would apoplogize if you feel I have attacked you or others personally in any of my posts. It is not my intention. Well, maybe a few times, but not in your case Tony or some of the recent threads.

Terry Parks