Reptile & Amphibian Forums

ok...

So maybe I can start another tanget.
The black pine is a candidate for federal protection...as well as state protection in MS and AL.

The same limiting factors...
i.e. loss of habitat, especially longleaf pine...and fire suppression seem to be the main resons for the number decline.

(fyi...same problems eastern indigos are struggling with)

I had a chance to poke around in Desoto nat'l forest in MS in the summer of '02, and the f&wildlife folks there seem to think they are really in trouble.

Amyone know how serious it is? They seem to have a slightly larger range, but...are they in as serious trouble as ruthveni?
Blood lines seem to be pretty stong in captivity and they are easy to breed...which is a good thing...

Dean,
I lived in Mobile County back in the early '80's and actively looked for lodingi as well as keeping and breeding them (I still have a breeding project with lodingi).

What I found at that time was that there were certain pockets where they were still relatively common, and other pockets where they were present but rare. Unfortunately, some of the pockets where they were still fairly common were areas of intense development (Shillinger Road/Cottage Hill Road area for one). One are that I know of that at that time was largely farmland where they were common was the Dawes Road area down to Grand Bay, but since that time that area has also come under a lot of development. I have been in that area poking around a few times since then and have found them (as well as Eastern Diamondbacks and Gopher Tortoises) in apparent serious decline. I believe the healthiest populations are actually in DeSoto. If those folks believe that population is in trouble then I have to believe that would be an indicator that they are not doing well anywhere.

In those days, the wanton killing of them by the locals was a huge problem. I remember one particular time that one of my neighbors brought me a gravid female in a 5 gallon bucket that had been essentially beheaded with a hoe. They wanted to know if it was "poison". I was unable to save any of the eggs. I was brought a few juveniles and adults by different people still alive and a few dead. I found several road kills over the years also.

I do not think they are quite in the same shape as ruthveni, but then again, I'm not sure that anyone really has a handle on the true condition of ruthveni populations, such as if there ever was a really large population of them to begin with and if they are really declining at a high rate. It may be that there was always relatively few of them. They are a very secretive snake to begin with (much more so, I think than even other pituophis) so I think it would be extremely difficult if not impossible to accurately assess the populations.

In the areas where lodingi were most common, they were not difficult to find. That is a two-edged sword, though...being easier to find makes them easier to assess, but it also makes them easier targets for people who kill snakes and makes them more likely to be victims of "road rage". I also think that lodingi are dependent of Gopher Tortoise burrows to a greater extent than is presently supposed because where they were common at that time, so were Gopher Tortoises. Where you didn't find Gopher Tortoises, lodingi were either not present or rare.

All of this is just my opinions based on my observations...

In the event P. m. lodingi becomes a federally protected species, how does that impact the captive bred population.

I have a captive bred one which is a superb beauty. I'd like to get involved in breeding them. They are impressive, big, and really quite gentle when handled properly and regularly.

if it becomes federally listed...it is likely to be handled just like the eastern indigo.

In-state sales will not be regulated, but inter-state commerce will require a federal permit.

Likely you will not be able to own the animals in the states they are native to though...AL and MS.

If you can now (?)
I'm not sure if they are already protected by these states or not

>>Likely you will not be able to own the animals in the states they are native to though...AL and MS.

They have records from Washington Parish, Louisiana, too. So, unless they are legally defined as extinct in Louisiana, the laws will be similar for LA, MS, and AL.

I've got a lot more to add to this post, but you put it too close to the LA Pines one. I'm burnt out and out-of-time.....lol.
KJ

Dean,
Lodingi are now protected by Alabama law and Mississippi law. I'm not sure about Louisiana.

>>Dean,
>>Lodingi are now protected by Alabama law and Mississippi law. I'm not sure about Louisiana.

They aren't. Louisiana "never" protects anything unless the feds make them do it. Besides, there probably haven't had any wild lodingi in Louisiana since the early 80's or late 70's. If they are there, it might be one or two...lol. There are only like 3 records from that one Parish.

If it were me, Louisiana should try to prove they are extinct in that state, and avoid the whole federally endangered species status.

KJ

I have been thinking about this "endangered species" status issue with respect to captive bred species of snakes like lodingi.

The ideal situation would be to have some kind of national organization which maintains breeding records on stock. Breeders could "register" their snakes and a certain number of each brood of hatchlings or subadults could be "donated" to the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service for restocking in the wild. This could actually be extended to other native species of herpetiles.

The rationale behind this would be multi-fold. By registering stock, care could be taken to assure that lines of stock are not excessively inbred, which could result in loss of biological vigor. By working with the Fish and Wildlife Service, we could deflate attacks by that growing number of vociferous malcontents who oppose keeping "wild animals" in captivity, by serving a useful scientific purpose, i.e. restocking endangered species or species under threat of endangerment.

Such an organization could also offer courses to prospective novice reptile hobbysts, advising them of the proper and safe maintenance of captive reptiles.

Such an organization might be able to encourage breeders and sellers of captive bred reptiles to offer individual specimens for sale to individuals with the understanding that purchasers would only resell these specimens or their offspring to other members of the organization, keeping our animals out of the hands of those who are not adequately trained in their care, and out of the extermination camps that many pet shops have become for captive reptiles.

By policing our own hobby and offering society something back in return for tolerating us, we could assure the perpetuation of our interest for future generations.

Just a thought.

I actually started a small group called ICBA
indigo snake breeders alliance

Basically I'm suggesting conservation causes for snakes and their habitat for breeders to donate a precentage of the funds they generate from selling their offspring.

Trouble with snakes for re-introduction is that it's not being done, nor does fish and wildlife see re-intorduction as a very useful tool right now. The re-intro efforts of the past have all failed for the most part.

It is occasionally tried...but even then the preferred method is to re-locate adult wild snakes that from areas where the populations are stonger.

One day re-introduction of cb sbakes may be the only way to save snakes like the black pine and LA pine...but for right now...no one is going to want snakes for re-intro. It is important the captive bloodlines are strong, for that day.

If you are going to actually donate animals...best to find some good wildlife education centers, zoos, etc within the range of the snakes and donate the snakes to educate the public about the threatened nature of these snakes and their habitat.

"In the end, will will save only what we love...
we will love only what we understand...
we will understand only what we are taught"

- Senagalese Conservationist

>>One day re-introduction of cb sbakes may be the only way to save snakes like the black pine and LA pine...but for right now...no one is going to want snakes for re-intro. It is important the captive bloodlines are strong, for that day.

Yeah, but how many bloodlines of rthveni out there would you trust enough for release into the wild? How many locality black pine lines (I doubt if any such thing reallt exists now) do you believe enough to release back into that locality?

Herpers have failed, in my opinion, at that goal. Some are doing a great job, but i fear for their passing. It'll be the dying throes of a once great idea ...that just didn't catch on well enough.
KJ

I was just getting ready to post that same qoute. lol
-----
International Snakes Meetup
International Herpetology Meetup

I agree with the registry idea, but it didn't work when the zoos ran the ruthveni studbook for the private sector, too. Snakes changed hands too much, bred to unregistered animals, breeders egos swole up and got mad when they were asked for proof or couldn't get their animals registered, etc. Face it, for this to work, the rules would have to be so strict that they would exclude most of the animals and only keep the definitely pure, locality, ones. Anything that strict would anger all thise breeders with over-sized egos enough to where the program was doomed to failure in the first place. I wish it would work for the private sector, but I won't hold my breath.

As far as releases go, I'm not too big on that. It's been shown over and over again that the habitat must be right for released animals to survive. Releasing CB snakes where wild ones could survive is never going to work unless the reason for their decline in the first place is corrected.

Last comment on the registery program: I'll admit I'm a member of the gun culture. Following the Bonus Army, Ruby Ridge, Waco, etc., do you think I want the government in my business any more? Yeah, I can see it now: the Bureau of Alcohol, Tabaccos, Firearms, Explosives, AND SNAKES. First, they make you register your snakes. Then they take them from you!

John Ross, start on your next book. Make it about herpetology!
KJ

Both can be owned here in Alabama but a permit is required.

They are on the state list of protected species.

Phil

ruthveni are on Alabama's list? Why?

Someone mentioned to me recently you can now keep Northern Pines in Alabama as well Phillip. I am going under the pretext that Northern Pines were protected and possession was prohibited until recently. I was wondering if you might know. Good luck. Here's a pic of this year's offspring prior to their first shed so they are still dark.

Terry Parks

found myself trying to identify which of the two were the ones that came my way hahahah

Rich Hebron

Thanks for the comment. I always love seeing a clutch of newly hatched Northern Pines. You were the second pic of the clutch and there were no holdbacks. One thing though, this Northern Pine population is known for its red overtones in the ground color. They have high contrast between saddles and ground color and some nice red overtone. When pairing the babies up, we like to pick one that should develop the red ovetone these are noted for and one that should have a high white/black contrast. I know people ask for the high white/black Northerns, but it's ashame to miss seeing one that doesn't have the reds in it. You won't be disappointed Rich. If you want to selective breed some white/black offspring over several years, you should be able to produce a white/black snake. It won't look like a Burlington County, New Jersey Pine Barrens Northern Pine from this population though. Here's a pic of an amel bullsnake and normal het produced this year.

Terry Parks

>>I do not think they are quite in the same shape as ruthveni, but then again, I'm not sure that anyone really has a handle on the true condition of ruthveni populations, such as if there ever was a really large population of them to begin with and if they are really declining at a high rate. It may be that there was always relatively few of them. They are a very secretive snake to begin with (much more so, I think than even other pituophis) so I think it would be extremely difficult if not impossible to accurately assess the populations.

Nah, old references talk about people finding them a LOT more than they are found now. Not like people find bullsnakes, but still a LOT more common than they are no. That either means they hide more now than they used to or they are less common now. (It is also possible that people just don't see them even though they are there as much, but that seems to be LESS likely than the opposite - people are probably MORE likely to see them today due to more people in their habitat, etc.)

I agree that I doubt that they were ever VERY common even in their prime, but I disagree with the idea that they could be just as common now as they were then. I'm basing this one old references to people seeing "bullsnakes" in central Louisiana decades ago. Obviously, it had to be ruthveni and not bullsnakes.

I wasn't aware of the old accounts...all I knew about was that for years the subspecies was supposedly known only from about 12 or so specimens that had been documented.

Hey Dean,

I've lived in Mississippi for 27 years. Was the first to breed lodingi. I spend a lot of time in Black Pinesnake habitat. Even began a federal status review on them (Regan was elected, money dissapeared, project terminated.). I have seen five roadkills. Period.

This is a rare beast. Fritz & Jennings, who later contracted to do the status review, found none. That's why it's damn insulting to see a beautiful six-footer sell for $50 dollars at a show. People don't know what they have and they don't appreciate it. At one time I tried to give away baby Louisiana Pinesnakes, free. People didn't know what they were and didn't see money-making potential in them. Couldn't give a single one away... Black Pinesnakes are the second-rarest large snake in the United States, next to the Louisiana Pinesnake.

Cheers (?)

Terry Vandeventer

Probably the most current research:

http://southeast.fws.gov/es/pdf/BPSform.PDF

Terry, I whole heartedly agree with your comments. Incidentally good seeing your post; glad to see you still visit this forum. You may not remember it, but a conversation with you 10 years ago led me into acquiring P ruthveni for the first time.

KB

Terry,
I agree...I don't understand why a snake like that is valued so low. It just doesn't make any sense. I saw neonates this year (probably 25 of them in one small plexiglass box) for sale for $45.00 each. Unbeleivable.

I wish I had known you were giving away ruthveni babies.

You've never found a live one in Mississippi? Not even in DeSoto? I've never looked for them in Mississippi, but I think you would be hard pressed to find one anywhere in the range now. The funny thing is that you tend to find them when you are NOT looking for them..when I lived in that part of Alabama, I caught a few of them. I only caught a couple while I was actually out hunting for them, the rest I would be driving to work or someplace and would find one crossing the road. One of the ones I caught while I was actually looking for them, I would have walked right past if he hadn't hissed at me. Usually someone else would bring them to me wanting me to tell them what kind of snake they had caught (or unfortunately killed). I was lucky enough one time to catch a gravid female crossing a dirt road in Grand Bay.

I worked with them and bred them on the early 90's...then dropped them because I couldnlt sell them.

That's before I was "born again" to herpetology. I don't do this stuff for the money any more.

Think I'm going to get back into black pines...
and ruthveni as soon as Terry can hook me up!

Dean, very good. I can relate fully to what you stated as I also worked with these many years back and was very foolish in selling off most of my locale herps that took years in acquiring.

This is probably buried but I hope it gets some notice. Years back, early 70's, I had heard black pines were also found on occasion in the panhandle of Florida. Before I start looking into that for verification of truth I'm betting many here already have the answer for me. Anyone have info. of the possibility this is in fact correct?

Thanks, Rich Hebron

I've never seen or heard of one (pure lodingi) being found east of the Alabama River. There is an intergradient zone with mugitus between the Alabama River and the western Florida panhandle area. There may have been a few Intergrades found around that area from Pensacola to the Alabama line.