Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I just weighed one of my yearling ball pythons, and I expected like 600 maybe 700 grams. This little girl weighs right over 1000 grams. Now is it my imagination, or is 1000 grams a bit big for a yearling?? Thanks, Brian.

I have a girl that is less than 3 months old and weighs 421 grams empty.

Just sounds like a healthy Ball to me.

All of the females that I have raised from hatchlings all average in and around that weight, mostly a little bigger. Good for you, not being afraid to feed your ball. Sounds healthy to me. Keep up the good work.

Above average for CBB Ball Python, yes.
Above average for wild Ball Python, most definately.

Are you overfeeding it? Maybe, maybe not.
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Jay A. Martin

Above average for CBB Ball Python, yes.
Above average for wild Ball Python, most definately.

What does this mean?

Your saying that his/our animals are overfed?

I did not say that at all. The average yearling Ball Python in
captivity is considerably less than 1000 grams. Average means "typical" or the norm. All of my yearlings range from 450 grams to 650 grams. A yearling at 1000 grams is, IMHO, above normal (i.e., not typical). If you'll read the chart in the Ball Python manual, the Barkers also believe this is considered above average.

Does this mean it's being overfed? Like I said in my previous post:

"Are you overfeeding it? Maybe, maybe not."

Average does not make right. Nor does it necessarily make wrong.
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Jay A. Martin

I asked because my yearling females are between 860 grams-1700 grams.

WOW! How did you accomplish that? I'd be very curious as if anyone else has a one year old Ball Python that weighs that much.

Or are you considering anything from 1 year UP TO 2 years of age a yearling? If this is the case, then, yes that's possible and might not be uncommon.

I consider a yearling an animal that has reached a year of age. This carries into a couple of months. For example, if they are a year and 3 months I call them yearlings, if a year and 4 months, I no longer call them yearlings. I say they are 14 months old. There is a HUGE difference between a yearling at 12 months and a yearling at 23 months.
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Jay A. Martin

The biggest was hatched on 7/23/02 and weighs 1651 on the nuts...
Her sister is at 1490 as of today.

Jmartin, I agree that our balls are large. HAHA! Well, at lest mine....It's unfortunate that a 1000g 12 month old ball is considered to be above average in weight. I believe that my balls should eat whenever they're hungry. (Hope I don't start another flame-fest, I'm not wearing my flame-retardant suit). I feed my 'yearling' balls once every 5-7 days, and if they would like a second item, I'll happily oblige them. By no means do I consider this 'powrfeeding' or any other new-fangled term that is vogue now. I feed my BP whatever it will eat. I do not force a second item down it's throat, nor do I sew it to another food item. That's not cool. I honestly believe that with all the information out there, that the majority of BP owners are underfeeding their balls.

>Jmartin, I agree that our balls are large. HAHA! Well, at lest
mine....It's unfortunate that a 1000g 12 month old ball is considered to be above average in weight. I believe that my balls should eat whenever they're hungry. (Hope I don't start

I agree (eating part). I generally let my snakes let me know when they are done eating. I offer one item at at time. If it's not taken within 5-10 minutes, it's removed - hatchlings. I leave it longer for adults.

I feed once every 5-7 days for growing snakes and breeding females. Adult males are offered food once every seven days but rarely accept. Usually opting to eat once every 2-3 weeks. No one eats during the winter fast.

>I honestly believe that with all the information out there, that the majority of BP owners are underfeeding their balls

I'm afraid you might be right. But it might not be as bad as some think. For example a 700 gram yearling (12 months old) might be just as healthy and happy as a 300 gram or 500 gram or 900 gram or 1300 gram snake. Most of my hatchlings that hatched at the end of July are already at around 250 grams. At this rate, I do expect them to reach 900 grams by their first year. Of course, winter is fast approaching and they may have other plans
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Jay A. Martin

"Hatched in July are already at around 250 grams."

I think it depends entirely on the keeper and/or personal preference.

My babies that pipped in Aug. are all over 400 grams now. They get fed twice a week. I hope they are close to 1200-1400 at 1 year of age.

I don't believe the "powerfeeding" crap when it comes to Balls, if they are hungry, they will eat!
Is a 700 gram yearling healthy, You bet.
I just like to keep my girls plump.

It's all a matter of personal preference. I feed all my balls whatever they would like to eat, when they want it. I never limit the amount of food one of my snakes will eat. A 700g yearling is just as healthy as a 1500g yearling, just smaller. If I can get a 2.5 year old female up to 2800 as opposed to a much more conservative 1500-1800g, chances are I'll be getting more eggs, and probably larger and healthier ones too.

I got a female 100% Het Butterscotch Ghost that is 1 year old(born Oct. 2002) and she is just over 1,400 grams. I am guessing she will not breed this season, since she is only a year old. But should be good for next(might weigh in at about 2,000 grams).

OK, i kinda fed her not the way most do. I feed her live and fresh killed. I feed her mice mostly, but give her a rat every now and then. I feed her whenever i think she will eat(that's all the time). There are weeks i will feed her 10 mice and weeks i will feed her 3 mice. There are days i will give her 4 mice at one sitting and days i only give her 1 small mouse. There are days i give her a small mouse then follow with a med. rat and then follow with another small mouse.

I know most if not all of you will think i am crazy, but i do it that way because my thoughts are in the wild, they eat a lot one time and then go without. They eat small ones and big ones, they might catch one now and then 2 later tonight. At least that's what i think. So i do not have a set feeding.

All og my Balls(29 total) are growing like weeds. Most have gained an average of 90 grams a month since i have had them. I got my 1st Dec. 2002. So i am new. I am sure someone will blast me also. But if it works, why fix it? I think...

I now have slowed on my males. I had a phone chat with Jamie Quick when i bought my female Albino and he gave me a good idea that i never read before. Told me not to get the males too big. They will be lazy. Want them lean mean sex machines. So i now give them less, making them only gain 30 to 45 grams a month once they hit about 700 grams. Up to 700 grams its eat and eat and eat...

Anyways, i am ready for the blast of "your doing it wrong", but if someone does have ideas or things that might be truely a help, please let me know as i am new and i do want to do good by my Balls...

Thank you very much... JAZ

Wow, I'm suprised that you got your balls that big on a diet consisting mostly of mice. Otherwise, I agree wholeheartedly with your orutine; to have no routine. I feed the same way, and it's working great for me. I'm sure that MANY will disagree with you (us), but if it works, why stop it.

Its nice to see i am not the only one doing something that seems to be against the norm. I just found that feeding a certian day every week to be to hard. Had to move other things to make room. So i said why not feed whenever.

About the only thing i do regularly is change water(about every 2 days).

I change the newspaper when its soiled or when they get it all bunched up.

So i am glad to see you do it too. About her and others getting big, yes i am suprised they are with almost all mice. Thay do eat a lot of them though. Seem to want to stuff themselves when i let them. And now with the females, i will let them a little more often(hoping to breed 3 females this season)(maybe the Het Butterscotch Ghost too, a bonus). I got a Pastel male that is about 900 grams and close to 2 years old(proven) so i plan on putting him with the 3 normal females.

The Het Butterscotch Ghost female i am hoping like crazy will want to(or can), her boyfriend is a 100% Het Butterscotch Ghost and weighs in at almost 900 grams. He is a year old also. So he might be ready, but i am guessing she will not be. Have to see...

Anyways, thanks for the post. I think its a good plan and all my Balls seem to like me for it. All are growing and all eat whenever offered. So i keep my fingers crossed and keep learning and trying to make it better for them. Happy Balls make happy owners...

JAZ

John, I've got a 1.3 group of het albinos that all hatched June 26-July 11 and they are 392,447,491 and 558. They are healthy little sausages and are doing great. Keep up the good work.

The fact is there aren't ANY substantial information to prove overfeeding of Ball Pythons is safe or harmful. Conventional wisdom leads us to believe that overfeeding is harmful for most living creatures. Therefore, one might conclude the same thing for Ball Pythons. Until any real studies are performed, we are all just guessing. I would love to see a study, but I'm really not sure I want to commit the next 30 years to that study.
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Jay A. Martin

I just think that a manual is not the law when it comes to nature and every animal is different.

Maybe someone feeding a Ball 1 time every 5 to 7 days after years of results came up with an average for "their" snakes. What if someone else feed their Balls every 3 days and have higher averages? Who would be right?

When it comes to that ita like cooking, got to do what works for you not the other guy. Yes, some things is like baking though, better go by the book.

In the 1800's all the books said woman could not vote. Hmmm, hope no one still believes them books. Times change, today woman vote and Balls weigh more than 1,000 grams at a year old...

JAZ

>In the 1800's all the books said woman could not vote. Hmmm, hope no one still believes them books. Times change, today woman vote and Balls weigh more than 1,000 grams at a year old...

Do not confuse social with physiological. These are entirely different - apples to oranges.
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Jay A. Martin

I will stick with what i said 1st then to not confuse anyone. If one person feeds their Balls once every 5 to 7 days and through the years they get averages that say a Balls weight after a year is under 1,000 grams then put it in a book and people say, "Thats average for a 1 year old.

Now someone else feeds their Balls every 3 or 4 days and through the years their Balls weigh in over 1,2oo grams at 1 year old. Now they say that is the average.

So who is right? Is one right and one wrong? I would think not. Is there really such thing as average? There are way too many factors that play into feeding and health.

What if someone feeds their rodents before feeding to the Balls(like i do). Maybe more nutrients go to the Ball with the mice/rats stomachs still full and not absorbed. Then the Ball uses it and gains weight faster. Could that play a part in it? Who knows. That's the point, who knows if their is a norm.

Heck, 15 years ago the norm for a Pro Football team lineman was 255lbs and today it is over 300lbs. Does that mean today's lineman are fat(over eating)? I would think not. Its about change, making it better and then doing it all over again... JAZ

but let's take a look at this.

Who or what determines average size for Ball Pythons? Is there an average weight and size for WC AND yet another average for CB? That's very possible. Most, if not all, of the WC Ball Pythons are considerably smaller than the CB I have seen. So, what would be average? Or do you want to know what is ideal? Because the two are not the same thing.

>So who is right? Is one right and one wrong? I would think not.
Is there really such thing as average? There are way too many factors that play into feeding and health.

Yes there is and always will be an average.

>What if someone feeds their rodents before feeding to the Balls(like i do). Maybe more nutrients go to the Ball with the

Well, this isn't the same as overfeeding or feeding too much. One person can eat an extremely small meal, loaded with all the nutrients the body needs while another eats a massive meal with virtually nothing the body can use. Scientific study has told us what is good and what is bad for the human body. There just aren't any (published) studies for Ball Pythons as of yet.

>Who knows. That's the point, who knows if their is a norm.

Of course we know the norm. This is a simple mathmatical equation. Whether the data that contributes to the norm is valid, remains to be seen.

>Heck, 15 years ago the norm for a Pro Football team lineman was 255lbs and today it is over 300lbs. Does that mean today's

You still continue to compare apples to oranges. These football players CHOOSE this path for themselves. While they may represent the average linesman, they do not represent the average population. Therefore, they makeup a small section that while average for linesman are not average physiologically.

>lineman are fat(over eating)? I would think not. Its about change, making it better and then doing it all over again... JAZ

Change isn't always a good thing. Especially if you are talking about nature, natural selection and evolution. By providing food daily to a snake you are changing what might (most likely) normally occur in nature. Of course, I realize they are in captivity, but you cannot change years of evolution overnight. For example, a pig released into the wild is not considered feral - it's still a domestic pig. In general, it's not until the 4th generation that a wild pig emerges that is considered feral.

Let me reiterate, I do not think what you or many like you (including me) are doing. There just aren't enough facts. My hypothesis, however, leads me to believe that if they ate constantly, throughout their lives - I have yet to find one that would - they would have considerable health issues. Due to evolution, these animals may know what is best. Which may lead to why they fast so often and for so long.
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Jay A. Martin

See, you made my point. Back to the Football Linesman. Like you said, they might be average for linesman, but not for the general public. Also, you said that WC and CB(raised) are different. CB i am guessing are a small % of the overall world population of Balls, line Linesman are in people.

Yes, linesman choose to do what they do, but in Balls we choose. So the choice is still made, reguardless who makes it, size is a goal.

So the point was, what might be in a book and normal size 3 or 5 or 10 years ago might not be it today. Like with Lineman, they have grown and are still healthy.

I do see your point and can understand it. I just keep thinking is there ever a norm? Who sets it? Why is it set? Who believes it? I don't know... Sorry if i got anyone upset...

JAZ

I think it has been a productive discussion
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Jay A. Martin

Yes, i think we both got out what we had to say and our feelings without name calling. Thanks for the chat on the subject. I am very new at this and love learning and all. Thanks...

JAZ