Reptile & Amphibian Forums

My roommate had her Chameleon (Lightning Jack)pass away in her hand this morning.

At about 4:30am she found him on the bottom of the cage, it took us an hour to even FIND an exotic reptile vet (we are in Des Moines, the closest reptile vet is an hour away in Aimes) and by then he had spit his tongue out and wouldn't retract it and had finally stopped moving, so we knew it was too late to get him to the vet there, we kept him warm and moist and talked to him till he passed away.

The point of this is...at 10:30ish pm when she cut the heat lamp off, he was fine...clinging to a fountain rock in his cage...she saw him eat the day before yesterday and there were droppings in his cage and he had plenty of crickets.

He was fine, balance and movementwise when she had him out earlier and after she found him, he seemed to have absolutely no balance.

He was small, maybe 2 to 2 1/2 inch long body and a tail about as long and gotten from Petco or Petsmart and we had had him about a month and a half or 2 months.

He seemed to degrade REALLY fast (I am a bird owner and I know how fast a bird can degrade, but this little guy did it even faster). He didn't have any visible damage and his mouth didn't appear to have any sores or anything. His belly looked like it always did (until he passed on and then he got very, very thin).

We are just at a loss as to why he passed away and are completely devestated. So, I thought I would post here and appeal to any experienced chameleon owners what may have happened.

She made sure his temp in his cage never fell below 70 degrees and he got a heat lamp which kept the temp in the 80 to 90 degree range at it highest cage spot. crickets got dusted with the mineral powder, misted at least 1 time a day, sometimes more (its dry where we live).

Any response would be appreciated here or at midnight@miratos.com.

We buried him in a little ceremony this morning at dawn.

Thanks
Miratos & Midnight

If he was a jackson's then the temps may have been too high. I'm not a jax owner, but I'm pretty sure the highest spot in the cage should be no higher than 80F, and the rest needs to be in the low 70s high 60s. Were his eyes sunken in at all? What was his colour like? What colour was his poop? He could have dehydrated from the temps... that's the only thing I can think of. I've only had my panther almost a year, so I'm not exactly an "expert".
Also, if he was only 2 inches s/v then he was probably really young. I have read that young jax can die "just b/c it's tuesday". They are really tricky to look after, especially if it was your roomates first cham. When they are that tiny you sometimes can't tell what is wrong until it is too late.
I'm really sorry for your loss! It's an aweful thing to have happen
How old was he when your roomate got him? Suggest that if he/she gets another that they chose one that is 3 months or more. Or, even better, six months or more if they can find one. By this age any deaths by "natural selection" have occurred, and any problems the cham will face "just because" will have likely been sorted out, giving your roomate a more stable animal and hopefully not having to go through this again.
I hope you guys can figure it out. My thoughts are with you...
~Lindsay

Thanks for your condolences.

I included further information in the second reply to ISO in this thread.

His coloring was fine, he constantly changed coloring, He was greenish or light brown/tan most of the time. Once or twice he did get dark brown, but once was last night when he passed and the other time was near when we first got him.

His dropping appeared consistant, a yellow, red and white kind of mix...its hard to describe. I could describe bird droppings and what they are supposed to look like...but not so well with the lizard.

Often times she would water him directly from the dripper, he loved that...often at least 1 time a day, sometimes more, but there was also the little running fountain (and a water dish before) - that fountain also had a humid fog creater too.

An issue with temperature mabye...but it didn't look like dehydration to me...but I am by far no expert.

I'd be surprised if he was 6 months old.

Thank you for your post.

hiya - I am deeply sorry for your loss.

I have Jacksons and maybe I can offer you a few ideas.

Like the other poster - how were his temps. Now I know they say the Jacskons like the lower temps - so if his cage was over the limit then that would casue an issue, but not a fast degrade like you described. FYI - My Jackson Male prefers it hot area at 85 or so.

I would think that at 2"-2.5" he was quite young. The mortality rate of pre juvie Jacksons is fairly high. They are very fickle guys. It may have been him..sometimes a perfectly adjusted young Jackson will fall from grace for no apparent reason.

You said he was in Petco's care for a while - and I know they are doing better with their herps as of late, but they probably do not understand the needed care for a young Jack (it is not like a young vieled). He may have been there for some time and really undercared for. If he was only 2.5" when you had him - they must have received him very young.

If you are truely concerned as to what happened - maybe letting us know exactly what the set up was like and how the temps were - as well as your misting schedule and dripper info. Basically the more you can tell us - the less speculation we would use.

If you are interested in getting a hardy Jackson - Male or Female - and way past the frail stage - please shoot me a note. I know of a local breeder that I use without fail. They take the best care of their kids and produce the healthiest Jacksons I have seen.

Again - I am very sorry for your loss.

-adam
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Adam
Portland, OR

1.1 Jacksons Chameleons (Female is red phase)
0.0.4 Rhacodactylus ciliatus
0.1 Uroplatus Phantasticus

Thank you for your condolences.

I spoke to my roommate and showed her the posts here and this is what she had to say:

The temp in the cage never read above 90, but most of the time it averaged 80-83.
at night, the temp of the cage was within a 68-27 degree range.

Light was a 75w Zoo Med reptisun light
She rarely used the 75w nightglow light because the temp didn't seem to vary enough unless it got really cold in the room.

The humidity usually stayed (according to the gauge) between 50 and 60 percent on average, but did go as high as 70 to 80 when he was being misted (minimum 2 times a day...but most often, morning, afternoon and before bed) or when the dripper was dripping water into the fountain.

I will pass your offer to her, though I am not sure where your email is located...I included hers in my original post if you wish to drop her a line with the offer.

thanks for your insight.

Petco said they had him about a month, but didn't elaborate on his age. His body length was about 2 1/2 inches to 3 inches long, not including his tail. His tail was also about 2 1/2 to 3 inches.

He was probably very young. My panther was about 2.5" s/v when I got her at three months, and I'm not sure, but I think jax are about the same size. I could be wrong...
I think the temp may have been too high for him. Jax like it to be in the low 70s for most of the cage with one hot spot. Gradient is very important for them. Babies are especially prone to over-heating, and like to be kept on the low side of norm jax temp ranges (same for any type of cham, babies need to be kept a little cooler than adults). Also, jax (I've read) are very sensitive to low humidity. With a panther you can get away with 50/60% most of the time, but jax need it to be 70 at the lowest (between mistings). This can be a pain, and if the temps are too high it can be even harder to maintain high humidity. Again, babies are even more difficult. They need it to be in the higher range of their humidity needs (I think jax need 70-90%). This can be done with humdifiers, foggers, etc. The store your roomate got him from may not have known this (I've seen a lot of stores that keep chams at too low humdidity) and even though it wasn't enough to show obvious signs, it may have taken a toll on him. Others would have to verify this, but I think jax can have a nighttime drop down to 55/60 degrees with no problem. They actually need it. Again, the store may not have known this. Jax need to be in air conditioned homes in the summer b/c they are so fussy on this. I have read a few posts over last summer about people coming home to their ac being off and half dead/fully dead jax.
There are is lots of "fine tuning" that people go through with their first cham. There are a lot of things that are needed with husbandry for ultimate sucess that people just don't know about. Also, even the LITTLEST thing can go wrong, and have big concequences. Chams are THAT tricky (I went through a lot with my panther, she had a URI when I got her and almost died - I had a crash course in care to say the least).
Suggest that if your roomate wants another that she research what kind of cham would be best for her. If you two live in a hot, dry place then a veiled would be much easier to look after. Panthers are great too (that's what I have, she's a doll!). If it is not too hot/dry then jacks would probably be ok to try again, but you can research to see what little things people have discovered to help with temp/humidity, and general husbandry. Also, I would definately get an older animal. And, if the store doesn't know how old an animal they have is, you probably don't want to get any animal from them anyway. They should know details about their stock, and if they don't I would be concerned.
Don't give up on chams! They are tricky lil buggers, but are oh so cute and you will find that after having one successfully they are rewarding animals to keep!
Here's a pic of my panther. She's a sweetie, and panthers are a little easier to care for than jax

Oops, I'll post the pic again.
I think it was probably just a mix of a bunch of little things that the store did wrong, and told you to do wrong. ie, fountains are ok if you clean them daily, but can cause problems with bacteria. some people have them without problem... chams just seem more sensitive to bacteria than other lizards, and a lot of petstores sell fountains without telling people this.
That, and I think he mayjust not have been strong to begin with. Jax do have high mortality rates when they are babies.

Thanks for posting that pic...looks alot like our little boy

I think you are right...it was a number of factors that caused it...no one thing, but the bacteria was probably the catalyst which caused the quick degredation...and by the time the symptoms were apparent, it was probably too late to do anything.

thanks for sharing your knowledge.

perhaps one day we will try again, but not for a long time, it hurts too much to lose a companion, especially when you make mistakes that contribute to it.

I don't want to make you feel any worse, but based on your post I can see several potential reasons why he died. The cage was probably way too warm and dry. They need at least a 10-15 degree temp drop at night and no visible lights or heat left on. What type of UV lighting did you have? This is usually a fluorescent tube light in addition to the basking spot (such as a ReptiSun 5.0). Few lights sold actually emit much UVB even though they claim to. The store probably didn't even carry the correct lighting. I've been to several of them and have never seen them. Jax need misting at least 2-3 times per day to maintain the proper air humidity. Without knowing the humidity range of the cage we can't say. He probably had poor care at the store. Most pet stores are clueless about proper cham care so you probably inherited some major health problems that took a while to overwhelm him. Just like birds, chams hide their problems until they simply don't have the energy fight them. What we see as a quick decline is the end result of a longer term problem. The gutloading and dusting you were told to do was probably wrong. I did not see any mention of what you gutloaded your insects with, and no mention of herp vitamins in addition to the calcium. For anything other than a rapidly growing baby dusting daily is too much. He was probably stressed by all these things, and if he was in view of human or other pet activity constantly he was most likely stressed by disturbance or overhandling too. Losing his balance suddenly is just another symptom of general collapse. Sadly, this is all too common a story for us to hear. I'm sorry you lost him. If you want to read about how to keep chams in the future some good online sites are: www.adcham.com, www.chameleonnews.com, www.chameleonjournals.com, www.geocities.com/ccicenter, and www.calumma.com

Thank you for your condolences.

I will pass along those links to my roommate.

I do honestly believe there was a 10 to 15 degree drop in temp between daytime and nighttime for him.

The light for daytime was a 75W Zoo-Med light, I didn't save the box and so don't have specifics.
The nighttime light wasn't used often since it didn't allow for the 10 to 15 degree drop, but it was a nightglo by Exo-Terra I think. Since it didn't let the temp drop right, by roommate only used it on cold nights.

Humidity range was 70-80 when misting or watering, 50 to 60 most of the rest of the time when the dropper and fountain were going. There were a couple of times it dropped to 40, initially before we got the fountain, which was about 2 weeks ago.

She bought a mineral dust for crickets off the shelf at petco and dusted them with it before dropping them in the cage. That is the only thing that was done. She did feed him meal worms a few times too. She did not dust the crickets daily, just when she put new ones in ever 3 or 4 days.

He was in her presence daily, though the cage was on the back part of the room and not near where she bustled around alot. She didn't handle him every day either.

Thanks for sharing your advice.

The same exact thing happened to me with my adult male Jackson. He was soo healthy the day before, and always had a great personality. One day I came home and I saw him hissing and shaking in a corner. He had no balance. I usually mist 4-5 times a day, and he would love to drink from the spray bottle but nonetheless I am guessing it was from dehydration. I was using a 100 watt basking bulb in a 65 gallon reptarium so he had plenty of room to get on to the cooler side. You can put so much care and work into chameleons and just have them die like that. I have sold my other Jacksons and moved on to leopard geckos.
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