Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hey. This is obviously for anyone but I noticed the post a couple weeks ago from tyranosaur about the article in the July issue of Reptiles about Louisianas. I just yesterday got to see that issue and even remembered the page number you said about. 64. Here are my question(s)/comments. First of all I just got rid of a pair that looks exactly like those snakes that guy is holding. And that's the first pic I have seen that shows those exact snakes. If those aren't LA's, what the hell are they? I went back and forth for months, wondering if they were Louisianas or not. I went through every book I could find with info about Ruthveni's and every online resource. But never found a pic that looked exactly like them. But the only pics of any pit I could find that even closely resembled them was of Ruthveni. The best info I got was from a herpetologist in MA who said that most northerns are yellow so I just assumed I had yellow northern pines. But now seeing this pic, I'm wondering. With not too much known about Ruthveni, is it possible this is what they look like when mature? Because I really never see pics of mature ones. Mine were pushing 5 feet and looked exactly like the ones in Reptiles.

Here's another issue, the guy I got them from, sold them to me as Southerns. I new the second I opened the bag, I wasn't dealing with southerns but never knew what they really were either. So, I don't know any lineage on them and who they were produced by and how they got lost in the pet trade as Southerns is a mystery. So my main question is, how can anyone be positive those animals in reptiles aren't Ruthveni's? And if they're not, what are they? They look unique to any other known Pituophis species. And another thing that I thought of is think of the color differences between just deppei's and jani's as they mature. Any info or comments on this would be greatly appreciated. I love pines and I think LA's are very interesting considering how little is know about them. And the fact that I had a pair that are being called Louisianas by Reptiles Magazine make me even more curious. Thanks alot.

If you want to see what La. pines look like, go to KJ's pituophis page.

who can say that the ones pictured in Reptiles aren't a different(and better) looking phase? And if they're not LA's, what are they? I think that's a better question. Has anyone ever seen pits that look like those?

The problem is no one can say for sure whether your snakes are pure LA pines or not. I haven't seen the pictures you are talking about and I probably couldn't identify a LA pine if it bit me on the nose. But I know a little of their history. You may already know this but years ago some unscrupulous breeders found out they could cross LA's with other pines and get neonates that look just like LA's. So there are now hybrids floating around out there that most people couldn't tell from the real thing. Yours may or may not be pure but without being able to trace them back to wild caught, you can't say they are pure (well you could but??). And even then you are relying on the integrity of the breeder.IMHO

Tim

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Not a theory. It is a fact that there are several hybrids floating around...unfortunately.

Yes, I've seen hybrids that look just like that.

to know? I don't have the snakes anymore but I'm contemplating getting them back. I'm guessing everyone here would consider them worthless? You gotta understand what it was like not having any idea what they were for 10 months and wondering and searching every day. It drove me nuts. Aside from anything though, the were really nice looking snakes. Bright yellow with the black markings pines have. I liked tham alot just had no clue what to consider them. I always wanted to post pics of them on here but don't have any way to do that. When I saw that pic in Reptiles yesterday, I figured it was a good opportunity to figure them out. I just need some peace of mind. Haha.

Unless you can trace them to where they originally came from, you'll probably never get the piece of mind you seek. If you could get some pics, maybe you could send them to someone who'll post them for you.

in Reptiles. Page 64.

If you sold them, what did you sell them as? I hope that if you wee unsure, you did the responsible thing and sold them as just that, unsure lineage and species. If the picture of your "yellow" northern pine is the same you sent to a friend, then your animals were definitely not Ruthveni, those looked like a very yellow bull cross to northern or possibly a northern cross to a mexican gopher.

Looks very similar to the Southern Reptiles bloodline and I am not about to start kicking that dead mule again. Rumor is that is Culatta in the pic holding 3 of his hybrid pines. TSK TSK, either way, if Reptiles represented those as pur then shame on them, they have screwed up two chances with the Ruthveni. Problem with them, they never research their photos and articles much do they?

But, that is only my opinion and probably doesn't carry much weight. Really interested in how you marketed them when you sold them though.

I don't know what he sold them as, but I do remember them being advertised originally as La. pines, then "western"??? pines, then yellow northerns. Hmmmm. How provocative.

I called them western pines for awhile on the advice of someone else who told me that was the best thing to do, not knowing the lineage. Yellow northerns was the most solid thing I heard so that's what I was finally considering them to be.

like I said, the most solid advice I got on them was from a herpetologist who has studied northerns for over 20 years and told me that most northerns are actaully yellow. So after almost a year, I just assumed that was he closest I was gonna get to knowing what they were and sold them as that.

Most northerns are actually yellow? Who is this herpetologist and does he drive a UFO?

Isn't this a picture of the male you offered? If so, then definitely not a Ruthveni. Valuable lesson to be learned here, actually two. Always ask as many questions as you can before buying so that you feel comfortable in what you have purchased. Secondly, always represent the animal you sell for exactly what it is, in this case you were unsure, so I would have sold it as "hey, I have no idea what I bought, but it is a definite Pituophis and probably a hybrid". Unfortunately somone out there now has what they thought were pure northerns and have probably a hybrid that will further cloud the lineage of another species, not a good thing.

As far as the person with 20 years experience, did you ever show them a photo of the animal or just describe it to them? Northerns do have a good deal of yellow to some of them, but it is a wheat yellow or buff yellow, not vibrant highlighter pen yellow.

Whole situation is unfortunate, escpecially the Ruthveni being tied to it, at least they weren't sold as Ruthveni to someone.
dc

Northerh x Deppei ???

>>Northerh x Deppei ???

Looks,like it a little, doesn't it? However, hatchling and adult size of the hybrids rules out this possibilitity in my mind. Besides, the hybrids came out when deppei were still real uncommon in the pet trade (more common than ruthveni, though) and are further from ruthveni than most other Pits (so assumably less likely to easily hybridize).

I guess my reply would be "Who knows for sure?" Oh, yeah: the butthole that made the hybrids and sold them as pure in the first place!
KJ

They are most likely P. ruthveni X P. m. melanoleucus hybrids. That's what they look like, AND that is the most common cross out there. There have been some sayi and lodingi hybridized with ruthveni, too. However, they look different from the melanoleucus X ruthveni hybrids. Those SCREAM northern pine hybrid to me when I see them. No questions asked.

This is a WC pure one: http://www.kingsnake.com/pituophis/images/wc_female_kjun2.jpg . Now THAT is a beautiful animal in its purity!

KJ

I don't know of another North American Pit that would have quite the yellow the "ruthveni" fakes show, unless it had some of the northern bullsnake strain in them.

Better looking phase? Say what, fo? Yo' betta recognize! Ain't no way you can beat the looks of a pure LA Pinesnake.

I've been LUCKY enough to see a lot more WC's than almost everyone following this thread even though I've never "caught" as much as a DOR one myself. Nothing verifiable has even come close to looking like those. With the long generation time, small clutches, and few breeders out there, there has NOT been time for selective propogation to produce something like that, without hybridization, either.

What are they? Mutts in my opinion. The rest isn't as important to me.
KJ

I think when I saw the picture you're referring to they looked like bullsnakes to me. Unfortunately, I don't have the picture here to refer to but I thought they looked like sayi.
Of course, I could be dead wrong.
Chris

I thought they actually look more like northern pine x ?. One had alot of red in it. In any case, they aren't pure Ruthveni.

of them possibly being northern/bull hybrids. From what I'm getting from you guys so far, and I just posted this thread this morning, is that they probably were hybrids. That's pretty irresponsible of Reptiles to publish that article then with the information about them already as unclear as it is.

>>of them possibly being northern/bull hybrids. From what I'm getting from you guys so far, and I just posted this thread this morning, is that they probably were hybrids. That's pretty irresponsible of Reptiles to publish that article then with the information about them already as unclear as it is.

Irresponsible? reptiles? Never! (Hey, in case you didn't get it, that was sarcasm. If I had a list of crappy publication, Reptiles would be just below anything by Burbrink....lol.)

KJ

If you go back to the Reptiles magazine issue April 2001 (pituophis parade) there is a pic of a supposed Ruthveni that is also a hybrid (bottom of page 51). You would think by now that Reptiles mag' would have learned to do a bit more homework.

np

Well, to help muddy the waters, I heard from a zoo curator that the Dallas zoo also passed out some ruthveni X melanoleucus crosses in the ealy 70's and that these animals have long been considered pure ruthveni. The fact is, probably very few of the animals are pure, but, regardless, those animals in reptile magazine are nice looking animals. Just don't misrepresent them when you go to sell. By the way Camby, the picture you posted, was that a northern pine....and if so where did it come from? Nice animal!

I am not sure what it is and from the looks of the post, neither is anyone else. That picture was sent to a friend by Kottonmouth as a Yellow Northern Pine for sale. I posted the pic and asked KottomNouth if this was the animal he was talking about being a possible Ruthveni.

dc