Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Not really,but she looks like it after a big meal of ratsShe is still growing a lot at 19 months old,but never seems to get fat(only after a good meal).Just thought I would share a pic,haven't been around here for some time.

one less cat...(j/k)

I am curious if you ever got her skin condition looked at? It was suggested it was a fungal infection. Is she still shedding continuously?
Take care,
D.

She never had a skin condition,that was FR's diagnosis.She sheds because she is still growing.She was checked out last week and everything is fine.Read my response to FR below also.I guess my bad pics cause distress for some people here

The body cavity of that monitor is full of fat. My guess is, around 30% or more of that monitors weight is fat. Normal fat is carried in the tail, not in the belly. Once the trunk of a monitor appears roundish, its full of fat.

Please understand you can feed whatever and how much you like. But that monitor is very fat.

Maybe Robert B or Rsg can post a pick of how much fat a apparently skinny or normal monitor carries. Robert showed me one last night. You would be shocked, if you could see how much fat your monitor is carrying.

In my opinion, if your going to feed monitors that many calories, you need to allow them to use it. With females, they use it in reproduction. Its simple math, they need to use the energy they consume. A large meal of rats will contain enough calories to allow your monitor to run to Miami and back. F

No offense taken.You said before that she had a skin fungus because she was shedding when I posted a pic.She was just checked out last week and is healthy(she wasn't fat then)I know it's real hard to tell anything from my bad pics.She is just full.After relieving herself,she is quite thin.Even the base of the tail isn't really fat.I cut back her food to once every 3-4 days(usually she eats 2 small rats weekly).She could have been in Miami by now,as much as she walks around outside and in the houseI'll post a pic to show everyone in a couple days.

My train wreck.

You can see the two huge fat stores in the lower right.

--Robert

I do not remember saying it has a skin fungus, please post where i did. But now that you do bring that up, she surely has problems with her skin.

Its your problem whether she is fat or not, its simply not my problem, but I would think you would be interested in seeing if thats the case or not.

Remember its always a battle in captivity, the balance between fat and health is a difficult one. The reasons are many and the subject of much debate.

My only concern is that newbies would get the idea that monitors containing lots of fat is something to strive for. Indeed you are welcome to have a monitor thats fat. F

Dragoon posted that above about the fungus thing.I totally respect your opinion on anything.Do you think 2 small rats a week is excessive?This monitor isn't sitting in a small cage and not moving either.Scott Stahl is a great vet that wouldn't screw up and lie to me because I raced Motocross with him 20 years ago.

In august, I had some very nice conversations with Scott, a very nice fella. But what you and he, come up with is not my concern.

If you look at the pic Robert posted, than compare the appearance to yours, you must understand, yours in much heavier and has much more fat.

I have opened up, monitors built like yours and I can guarantee, its scary the amount of fat they hold.

Fat is not about two rats a week, its about metabolism. Its how they use their energy. Because they are reptiles, this is a combination of many factors. Its calories taken it, its metabolism, its calories expended.

About your two rats. I am afraid you should not count rats, but instead look at the monitor. Thats how you judge this. Not how many rats. Good luck F

I sometimes feed Sobek one large rat every 4 days, or I may let her go alot longer because I need to see how she looks after she wears it off and adjust her diet from there. I also still alternate with 5-9 ounce peeps (a few ounces less than the rats). In between I feed as many hissers as she will eat, but adjust the amount and frequency of larger foods. I try to keep her weight down because she did check out during surgery as having a low amount of fat at the time, and her fat content in her blood was at a low to good level. Now of course she cannot use the fat in egg production so I must monitor her intake. She still grows alot now and goes from one shed right into the next.

Anylizing the blood for fat ratio. Ill ask my vet about that, because as far as I know they were calling Hewey fat, but I dont think they really looked at his blood for evidence of that. They rarely see monitors.

Besides that, they had him written down as 18 mo.! Hes barely 9 1/2 mo! Hes nearly 40" and 5 lb 8 oz. Hes not fat IMO. He just doesnt look like that emaciated bags of bones that Puke-Co brings in! Hes got flesh!

Rgrds,
Michelle

To tell if the animal has either mobilized fat reserves, has a high fat content (gets absorbed into the liver). It can be dangerous to the animal, primarily when another health problem hits them. A high reading may show they havent eaten for a while and they have mobilized fat reserves, or that their liver is laden with fat from being overweight, most bosc owners would be shocked at their animals high fat content.

Apperantly all tests(along with ultrasound, were run for liver disease), and nothing extraordinary was found. He has the appearance of a healthy liver.

My question is than why was he called "fat"? This is not an answer you can give, I know. It just makes me wonder. I cant help but have some conclicted feelings. Im just so frustrated that these vets dont know more.

$12OO., one month of treatment, and no answers. Yet vet call my lizard fat for no appearant reason.

...my problem.

Thanks for the info, though now I just have more doubts.

Michelle

When obese, the liver does not get laden with fat until something happens causing them to mobilize their fat reserves because they are not eating. Usually it takes a few weeks of something traumatic. That is when the fat mobilizes and hepatic lipidosis appears because they are sick and it is filtering through their liver in the blood stream. That is why obesity is a long term health problem. Yet they are designed to use fat reserves for egg production, periods of no food availability, or sickness.

Hed already gone nearly 3 weeks without eating before his liver ultrasound and biopsy.

I know what youre asying though. Believe me, Ive been doing some crazy reading lately.

Michelle

without using any fat reserves, if they have the tools/temps to do it.

I would be more concerned with the effect of excess fat causing pressure on the internal organs, than liver or kidney failure. Even on an animal that does not appear that fat, everything is squished in their body cavity, and the fat stores in their bellies are huge.

--Robert

We were talking about the effect on the liver. An animal that has been eating regularily, and then goes off feed can begin to develope fatty liver disease within a week a so(an obese animal is more inclined to develope the disease). -At least thats what the vets have said. Consequently they ran untralsound and biopsy tests to see if Hewey was developing any liver diease. -They called him fat. Hes exactly the same weight that he was 1 month ago. 5 lb 8 oz. He has lost nor gained any wieght. I will take a pic today and e-mail it to you if youre interested.

Rgrds,
Michelle

Do not look so much into the wieght. Look more into what he looks like where he is carrying that wieght is more important. Is it in the tail, legs, head, overall size, or is it simply in the stomach? If it is in the stomach all 5 lbs. then he is Fat and that is why they said it.

A fat or obese animal with a fully sagged or blown out belly is not a healthy animal. It's just for some people easier on the eyes then the skin and bones animals. Why I do not know because niether is healthy.

But of course when a female is gravid the big belly is normal. It is a fine line of keeping them healthy, full and fit. Even a skinny tree monitor will suprise you of the fat stores they have inside.

If your animal just ate and is big but loses it fast then thats ok, if it looks like it swallowed a football and remains this way 24/7 then he is probly to fat. Unless it is a female that is gravid.

Yes, suprising amount of fat.

that always helps people out. That is exactly the thing I was talking about. I am sure that Beccari looked skinny before opening it up to find all that fat tucked away.

Thats the thing with cold blooded critters and the way they work. It is very alien to us so hard for most to comprehend.

She would fluctuate from thin to heavy as for a period of time she would eat alot and grow then slow down and gain weight. So I adjust in between those spurts by watching her waist. After surgery and having no reproductive system she grew in a few big spurts quickly and was very very thin at first (those 40 eggs and no eating for 3 weeks took a toll to even her legs and tail, her hip bones showed for a while), so now without the reproductive system I have to keep a closer watch on her weight. Now shes going through that time where she wont eat for a week or so. Now she only shows one sign of her surgery, a scar on her belly as she was 14.5lbs with hips showing at 5 ft 8 inches, now she has gained the largest leg muscle mass she has ever had, and her tail is very thick, as well shes also 24.5 lbs with an empty stomach. I purposely weighed her before feeding her over a week ago.
Just watch his weight and dont be afraid to let him go a week between feedings if hes overweight. As for his age, I dont know how the vets know but Id ask them because he is an import so if they can tell acurately some way then youll know how old he is. After all Shadow was CBB and he was only 22 inches and 2.2 lbs when I got him (at over 2 years old), now hes over 6.5lbs and over 3.5 ft (hes also going on 3 years old).
The other thing that helps is to feed small prey items and adjust numbers than to feed larger foods and stretching the time between them. After all Ive read posts where people were feeding large rats (not sure how its physically possible) to 3-4 ft monitors, yet I didnt start feeding them to Sobek until she was 6ft long, her largest foods were 5-9 ounce peeps, large rats (at least according to Rodentpro) are 9-12 ounces and very big.

I think they just misheard me when they wrote down an age. The vet said "oh dear!" when I said that hes not nearly as old as the paperwork said.
They are inexperienced with monitors, and were getting all their information from the internet themselves. One of the main pages Dr. Singelton went to during the period she was seing Hewey was Melissa Kapplans(hope I spelled it right). They have been open in admitting that their knowledge on Varanus is limited.
Hewey is a thick animal. He has thick legs, thick tail, and thick skull! His belly is lean, and doesnt hang nor buldge. He gets small rats and lots of adult mice. Well, not now because of his illness. Normally though he eats prey smaller than his head at frequent intervals. (about 5x's a week)
There are no vets in the area that have good knowledge on Varanus, and when they see Hewey, its a learning experience. I know its hard for both Dr. Singelton and Dr. Forney to not be able to diagnose Hewey or come up with anything concrete. Much of whats been said is purely theory, and hopeful ideas.
Not too easy on the checkbook, but hopefully educational for all involved.
Ive seen his xrays and his fat pads. Hes of normal range. His livers fine. Hes got no parasites. His bones are dense and strong. His white blood cell count is now normal. When hes fed, he passes stool.
Does anyone know why he got ill to begin with? Not so far.

Rgrds,
Michelle

I wonder if he came in contact by accidnt with something poisonous, that may have weakened him, maybe ate something he shouldnt have.

I know we have talked many times about Hewey. But the things you said here I found odd. I am not picking on you so take no offense.

"They are inexperienced with monitors, and were getting all their information from the internet themselves. One of the main pages Dr. Singelton went to during the period she was seing Hewey was Melissa Kapplans(hope I spelled it right). They have been open in admitting that their knowledge on Varanus is limited."

If they are inexperienced then why are you dwelling on what they had to say?? I just thought it odd that you were worried about Hewey but yet an inexperienced vet is who you took him to?

"Hewey is a thick animal. He has thick legs, thick tail, and thick skull! His belly is lean, and doesnt hang nor buldge. He gets small rats and lots of adult mice. Well, not now because of his illness. Normally though he eats prey smaller than his head at frequent intervals. (about 5x's a week)"

Unless your feeding small amnounts 5 times a week is alot. But if he is growing and you have the conditions right for him to use it he may be OK. You'll surely want to adjust it later on.

"There are no vets in the area that have good knowledge on Varanus"

I am sure thats your answer to the top question. Which is fine cause it can be hard to find a real good vet.

"Ive seen his xrays and his fat pads. Hes of normal range. His livers fine. Hes got no parasites. His bones are dense and strong. His white blood cell count is now normal. When hes fed, he passes stool."

How do you know the normal ranges of fat they are supposed to have? What did you compare it with? Also how do you know the normal white blood cell counts for Bt's? You mentioned about your vet having limited knowledge. Did you simply read it out of a book or off the net?

"Does anyone know why he got ill to begin with? Not so far."

My bet is still on his immune system, or husbandry. As for what he had thats another ordeal and you alreay know the direction I went with it following the symptoms. But that doesn't always end you up in the right place especially being on the other side of the country LOL

I guess I took their word at the cell count. Hmmmm. You suck! Now im more duobtful! Agh!

I havent much to compare the fat pads to. Ive only seen a couple of these guys cut open and based on their size/ condition he looks to be of good tone. He looks leaner than the pick of the wild WT that was posted here a little while back. Even leaner than the WT that Goanna Ranch just posted recently. He actually has a decent lateral fold. His legs arent quite as thick as they were before illness set in. I assume from lack of usage. Prior to that though they were very built.

This is just all very difficult to deal with because I know that nothing is certain(or even close for that matter) and its been hard just going off of theories with no real knowledge base.

Dont get me wrong. The team of vets that has worked with him have been very bright and caring and hopeful. Theyre wonderful people. Im glad that theyre honest. I just cant help but have some frustrations. They do as well.

Thanks for your time Jody,

Michelle

Well it sounds like he is of good condition. But who knows without seeing him.

I am glad he has such a dedicated owner. Your interest in learning is awesome so keep that going.

If you can educate a vet every now and again do so.

Ill get them developed tomorrow and then hopefully Miss Christine will help me post them

Well if you know it's not fat, why worry about what the vets say, especially if you have little confidence in them. I'm just saying they can go a long time and not even go into using any fat. Having the right amount of fat, and guessing what the right amount of fat is, is part of the challenge.

Good Luck with Hewey,

--Robert

I just wish more was known. I wish more tests have been created for detection of virus. Well, there are non in varanus. So much more can be run on dos and cats. They havent even begun to chip away the iceburg of Varanus medicine. So much is lacking...

Michelle

Ive missed our latenight delierium...hahahaha!!! Youve missed a bit too actually. I now have a $1400. BT! No joke.

Well, talk ta ya latter!

Michelle