Reptile & Amphibian Forums

From what I have read on this forum ( and others ) it is unusual for a 4-1/2 month old BD to brumate. However, for the last two weeks now, he barely eats. He is only up about 6 hours a day and he is not interested in anything xcept waxworms. I feed him about two a day (dusted) and try to get him to eat veggies and crickets and BD treats, pellets, fruits, and anything else I can think of. His temps are good but he doesn't want to be on the warm side. He goes under the paper towels or under his log and sleeps a lot... The vet said he is ok (10 days ago) and his fecal was clear of parasites. I have also given him water daily and some acidophilus. Could he be brumating? Should I leave him alone or wake him up and keep trying to get him to eat? I am at the end of ideas. I don't know what else to do. thanks for all suggestions...

I am definitely not a bearded dragon expert, but I would say that as long as his weight isn't going down,I would just continue to feed as you are and wait a bit. I have heard of some animals having a periodic slowdown as the weather cools without going completely under.

I'm sure others here will have more and probably better advice for you, but that is what I would do. Just monitor his weight closely, and as long as everything else is okay (poops, hydration etc...) let him do what he wants. I'll bet he knows what he is doing even if us humans don't.

Laura

I agree with Laura. Monitor his weight. If he doesn't lose more than 10% of his normal weight, don't worry overmuch. Babies can, and do brumate, even though it's not that common in captivity.

Without knowing a lot about the background and stuff it's hard to say, but something I would check to see is the lighting. I would add extra lighting if the tank is not pretty bright to make him more alert and see if that helps.

Also, I would double check the temps and make sure they are correct. It's possible it's too hot if he's all the way away from the heat and/or hiding under paper and decorations... it's possible he's trying to get away from the heat. I know it's a long shot, but something to think about.

The other advice is also good. Monitor his weight. I would also stop feeding him the wax worms for now. I say that bc dragons can get spoiled and refuse to eat anything but what they really want. Obvsiously if he won't eat anything else and starts to lose weight after awhile feed him whatever he'll eat especially if he's lathargic and all.

Also make sure the UVB is good. The UVA and UVB will stimulate his appetite if he doesn't have it or if it's possible old.

Good luck with your dragon.
brandon
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Dragons by Nature

How is it that UV light stimulates appetite? I can understand temperature and length of time for lights but UV, I don't get it. Just curious how you come to that conclusion. Is it anecdotal or factual?
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Bennett

www.beardiedragon.com

It's a fact, not my opinion.

"Contains the highest amounts of both UVB and UVA wavelengths (according to an independent laboratory spectral analysis.) The UVB wavelength helps to prevent or reverse Metabolic Bone Disease in green iguanas as well as other species of lizards in captivity. Strengthens and improves shell growth on all captive turtles and tortoises.
UVA wavelength increases appetite, physical activity, helps to induce reproductive behaviors and is beneficial to the psychological well-being of captive reptiles and amphibians.
"

Taken directly from Zoomed's website. It's published everywhere do a search on it. I just used Zoomeds website bc everyone knows it. I know you don't always want to trust someone selling a product, but i've read it a thousand times from numerous places.

I've also noticed that it is true via personal experience with many different types of reptiles... never with snakes though that I have kept.

brandon
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Dragons by Nature

ive heard the same thing here on the forum many times. i was under the impression though that it was the intensity of the light, not so much the uvb itself, that stimulated appetite?
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proud mama to:
1.0.0 ball python (mr snake),0.0.1 albino florida kingsnake (CK),1.1.0 leopard gecko (sebastian and vilma),0.1.0 colombian rainbow boa (luce),1.1.1 bearded dragon (kaipo, dulce, and kellen), 1.1.0 colombian redtailed boas (adam and eve)

light intensity def is a big key in my opinion. I think that's a big problem with some of the UVB bulbs. They don't give off enough light to make the dragons active and alert. You can have UVB and UVA all over the place, but if the lighting in the cage is dark the dragons will not be as alert and active. Therefore the light intensity really makes a difference. Especially with color.

The UVA helps increase that as well. We use the ReptiSun 5.0 which has both UVA & UVB in it.. but when we've just used the reptisun bulb with no additional lighting the dragons have not done as well as they have when we use dual strips that has the reptisun bulb and a high output bright white light to increase brightness.

brandon
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Dragons by Nature

OK did a quick search and all the info I found was from manufacturers of UV bulbs. Sales pitch - no scientific backing what so ever! Melissa has info on her sight about UV but I didn't see anything about appetite stimulant (just took a quick look, might have missed it) Reptisun promotes their UV over calcium with D3 saying it is safer, yet the manufacturers of calcium make 2 versions. With D3 for indoor use and no D3 for outdoor use. So are they claiming they put out enough UV that you don’t need to supplement D3??? I wouldn't chance it. The debate as to the amount of UVA and UVB NEEDED is still very much open. No scientific answers yet. I would love to see a scientific study about appetite. Personal observation is important but how do you know it was the UV not the light or the barometric pressure or the phase of the moon...?

I have some babies that just don't like to eat a lot. Less than 10 appropriate sized crix a day. And these babies are 6 weeks old. Their siblings under identical conditions eat 10-20 and some days more. Even giving them direct Florida sun every day for 2-3 hours did not make a difference. The only thing I have found that seems to possibly be helping is to turn off their heat every so often during the day for an hour to vary the temps more.

I am not trying to be obstinate, and I do recognize you as a class breeder (I have one of your red X snows - gorgeous). I am just on a quest for scientific proof. I have heard hot rocks are good for all reptiles all to many times. We know how that turned out. Why do they still make them if they are no good? Why would anybody sell them if they are no good?
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Bennett

www.beardiedragon.com

I'm not sure where this discussion is going or where it came from anymore lol.. but i've always said that light intensity is the key to bearded dragons, not UVA. I am a firm believer in that from personal experience. I never said or meant to say that UVA is the key to anything. The light intensity is the key to everytihng I believe.

I said the UVA does help to stimulate appetite bc that's what i've read for years from books, websites, and some vets. So I go with it. I don't put an emphasis on UVA. I put emphasis on the UVB and the light intensity. Sure I can be wrong about the UVA.. i could be wrong about the UVB as well.

I know UVB is a debated topic and whatever works for each individual person is fine with me. I don't want to get into UVB debates again - i'm tired of it. I will continue to use UVB lighting until I know for a fact that it's not doing any good.

To answer your other question, no I don't have any scientific proof it was the lighting that did anything for the reptiles. I do know that what made a difference for them was i swapped out the old uvb bulb (that had uva in it) for a new one and within a day their color came out better and they ate better. sure it could have been the moon i suppose.

And I don't think anything holds true for all dragons. You can have all the UVA, UVB, light intesnity, heat, and so on in the world and it will not help some dragons to eat.

About your babies that won't eat good. My advice, separate them into their own enclosures without access to other dragons and/or traffic. Leave them alone and feed them and a lot of times that does the trick. Some dragons just don't do well exposed to other dragons.

Thank you about the comments about our dragons and such I appreciate that. Don't worry, I don't take offesne to the posts and/or questions. I agree with you about sales pitches and most of the junk that is said is most of the time just about money and not what's really needed. But i am a firm believer about light intensity being the key to many things. The UVB I also believe is very important. The UVA from what I know helps but is not the critical aspect of the setup. I've never used UVA only bulbs.

brandon
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Dragons by Nature

I too believe that more light is better... but do you light the entire enclosure, just one side or do you give them an area of shade or a hide...?
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Bennett

www.beardiedragon.com

We use 48" x 24" x 16" melamine cates. Centered is a 36" dual flourescent dual bulb... one for UVB ReptiSun 5.0 and one for just a regular bright white intensity bulb. On the far left we have an incandescent porcelain or ceramic fixture with a basking bulb.

On the far right we have a 24" wide by 8" "shelf" that is raised off the ground like 4" or so that they can either get under to hide or get on top of to perch. In addition to that we have the rock under the basking spot to absorb heat and for them to bask on for their bellies and misc wood or whatnot to climb on throughout the enclosure.

Nothing to fancy to keep it easy to clean.

brandon
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Dragons by Nature

np
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Bennett

www.beardiedragon.com

"Why do they still make them if they are no good? Why would anybody sell them if they are no good?"

For the same reason they sell Calci-sand and other harmful substrates..$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
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TheClassyLizard

out of curiosity, are there any reptiles that heat rocks arent dangerous for?
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proud mama to:
1.0.0 ball python (mr snake),0.0.1 albino florida kingsnake (CK),1.1.0 leopard gecko (sebastian and vilma),0.1.0 colombian rainbow boa (luce),1.1.1 bearded dragon (kaipo, dulce, and kellen), 1.1.0 colombian redtailed boas (adam and eve)

collareds... i would think would do ok with heat rocks... since they can sit on super super super hot rocks in nature..i believe their body thermoregulates better.. but don't quote me on that

alissa