Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I increased the heating in his tank and it's at 101 in the basking spot...

I was reading the bearded dragon manual by Phillipe de Vosjoli and IT SAYS: THE TEMPERATURE AT THE BASKING SITE SHOULD MEASURE 90-100 degrees. (page 33)

The manual also SAYS ON PAGE 32: THE TEMPERATURE AT THE BASKING SITE SHOULD BE 90-100 degrees.

IN THE GENERAL CARE AND MAINTENANCE OF BEARDED DRAGONS BY ROBERT MAILLOUX IT SAYS ON PAGE 21: BASKING TEMPERATURES SHOULD REACH 88-95 degrees.

http://coloherp.org/careshts/lizards/beardeds.php: THIS WEBSITE SAYS TO KEEP BEARDED DRAGONS BASKING SITES AT 95-105 FOR HATCHLING AND 88-95 FOR ADULTS.

http://www.kingsnake.com/gladescs/bearded/: EVEN THE KINGSNAKE WEBSITE DOES NOT SAY TO PUT THE BASKING TEMP OVER 105 degrees.

Although bearded dragons are primarily desert dwellers, they do spend the hottest part of the days in relatively cool areas; as with all desert animals, too much heat can be just as dangerous as too little.

QUOTED FROM MELISSA KAPLAN'S WEBSITE: http://www.anapsid.org/bearded.html
"The temperature gradient during the day should range from 76 F (24 C) on the cool side to 86 F (30 C) on the warm side, with a basking area ranging from 90-100 F (32-37.7 C). Night time temperatures can drop no lower than the low to mid 70s (21 C) on the cool side."

I wouldn't go around believing everything any website or person tells you unless you get it from a respectable source, like some of the ones above. I also phoned around to a few local breeders and they said their hatchling temps never go above 105 degrees. I would say find a herpetological website and stick to what they say. Anyone can get a website and slap on some info, it doesn't mean they are right.

THIS WEBSITE: http://home.iprimus.com.au/ozthunder/oz/sa.html
Contains Australia's natural climate overview for Southern Austrailia which is the hottest area in Australia...The MAXIMUM temperature for this area is 108 degress with the most common temperature at about 95 degrees. The hottest area has a RARE TENDENCY of getting up to a MAXIMUM temperature of 122 degrees. I'm sure at 122 degrees the bearded dragons are looking for shade. In this region the most common temp is 105-108 degress.

SO....in short I would say that bearded dragons...EVEN HATCHLINGS should not be kept at a temperature of 115 degrees. I think that's a little too hot. My bearded dragon's temp is at 101 and he's eating 1/4 sized crickets like crazy now...I also increased the UV...now he has 2 bulbs instead of 1. I don't think the baby dragon had a problem with the heat being at 95, I think it was more a food size problem.

Of course all this factual evidence from reliable sources is just the opinions and experianced advice of professionals like Melissa Kaplan and Phillipe de Vosjoli, so you don't have to believe it or me cause I know that everyone has an opinion and everyone's opinion is the right one.

That's just my opinion...I'm probably wrong.

i think youre probably confusing ambient and surface temps.

but if you dont want to take the advice of forum members, then dont waste their time and test their patience by asking repeatedly.
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proud mama to:
1.0.0 ball python (mr snake),0.0.1 albino florida kingsnake (CK),1.1.0 leopard gecko (sebastian and vilma),0.1.0 colombian rainbow boa (luce),1.1.1 bearded dragon (kaipo, dulce, and kellen), 1.1.0 colombian redtailed boas (adam and eve)

n/p

.
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proud mama to:
1.0.0 ball python (mr snake),0.0.1 albino florida kingsnake (CK),1.1.0 leopard gecko (sebastian and vilma),0.1.0 colombian rainbow boa (luce),1.1.1 bearded dragon (kaipo, dulce, and kellen), 1.1.0 colombian redtailed boas (adam and eve)

Are those temps ambient or surface? ( The Vosjoli book doesn't say. I know 'cause I have it. )
Ever sit down on a vinyl car seat on a sunny, 80 degree day, when you had shorts on? If so, I'm sure it didn't take you long to figure out that the car seat was quite a bit warmer than any 80 degrees, and that it was the backs of your thighs you were smelling burning, not bacon frying.

The point being that most of the people here are recommending your surface temps be in the 105-115 degree range, not the ambient. At those surface temps, the ambient temp on the warm end of the enclosure will be just about 90-95 degrees F.

Just a thought, and only my opinion.
D.A.

on the highest poing and that is what i gauge my temps at.

Ambient temperature is AIR temperature. Surface temperature is how hot the surface actually is.

In other words, if you turn on the burner to an electric range top, that burner gets up to several hundred degrees. But if you hold your hand 6 inches beside it, the temperature is only about 100 or so.

A rock laying out in the sun on a 100 degree day can get hot enough to burn your skin. Especially if it's a dark or black rock, and has a relatively smooth surface.

D.A.

You measure surface temp by putting the probe in contact with the surface. It must be touching, not just hanging over it.

D.A.

yup, youre measuring surface temp with the probe. if you checked the temp of the unit and not the probe, or put a regular thermometer in, youd be measuring ambient temp
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proud mama to:
1.0.0 ball python (mr snake),0.0.1 albino florida kingsnake (CK),1.1.0 leopard gecko (sebastian and vilma),0.1.0 colombian rainbow boa (luce),1.1.1 bearded dragon (kaipo, dulce, and kellen), 1.1.0 colombian redtailed boas (adam and eve)

Something to consider...

Obviously there is a difference between ambient temps and spot temps as everyone keeps saying. Ambient temps means the overall cage air temp at certain areas in the cage, where as a spot temp would be directly at one spot.. such as under the heat bulb where they bask.

What's really important to understand is the entire picture. If you have a spot light with a bulb that gives you 110 to 115 degrees directly under the bulb... what you have to realize is 1" to the left, right, or back could drop as much as 5 degrees or more. Especially if your ambient temps in the cage are cold and let's say in the 70's such as early morning before the room or cage has heated up. There is only an extremely small surface area that ever gets quite that hot. But that small spot makes the area around that "spot" warm and in the 100 to 105 degree range.

What is also extremely important to understand is that dragons have to be at a certain temp to metabolize their food and become active. If your reptile room or cage gets cold lets say in the low 70's at night or sometimes even colder, check your dragon in the morning.. normally once they wakeup and warm up a tad to move around they go and spend time directly under their spot lights until they warm up and the ambient temps increase and they start to move around away from the heat bulb. During the day with nice hot ambient cage temps no they won't need 115 degrees more then likely.. but that 115 sure helps them warm up in the morning to begin their feeding process and the area around the bulb gives them a chance to warm up while the rest of the cage is as well.

Again, having the spot directly under the heat bulb around 110 to 115 will normally give you that 100 to 105 degree range on the outskirts of the bulb's range directly under the spot of the heat... that's really important with multiple dragons. If the hottest spot you ever get is 100 degrees.. especially with multiple dragons they will never get the proper heat they need.

It's important that everyone understand that you never want ambient temps in the 110 or 115 degree range... ever. ambient temps should never be higher then the low 90's... and you must have a cool zone with ambient temps in the 80's or you are going to severly hurt your dragon. They must have access to cool zones at all times. Dragons pop in and out all day of hot zones and cool zones to get the temp they want.

*sigh* and people ask why I stop posting Reiko i'm with you lets go get a drink lol

brandon
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Dragons by Nature

i wanna drink too!!!! ill be back in northern va....sometime

i think the main thing our friend needs to get outta that (assuming he now gets the different between ambient and surface temps) is that the dragon needs the OPTION to get on a SPOT as warm as we've been trying to tell him. just because the dragon doesnt spend all day there doesnt mean he doesnt need it. for instance, my dragons dont usually go to the warmest spot unless they just ate. the rest of the time, they stay somewehre a little cooler. and kaipo is still playing with the idea of brumating, so he spends most of his time in the cool end after all, we do call it thermoregulation for a reason....the dragon needs to regulate his own bleepin temps
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proud mama to:
1.0.0 ball python (mr snake),0.0.1 albino florida kingsnake (CK),1.1.0 leopard gecko (sebastian and vilma),0.1.0 colombian rainbow boa (luce),1.1.1 bearded dragon (kaipo, dulce, and kellen), 1.1.0 colombian redtailed boas (adam and eve)

yup, that's a good point. Thats what I was trying to say with my novel lol. but you're right, let the dragon have the option of doing what he wants. Some days I want a burning hot shower just bc I feel like it. Other days I want a cold shower. But when i'm freezing and I can't get a hot shower, it sucks.

Come on over, fridge is full of good stuff! BYOD - bring your own dragon hahahaha i'm so funny. (not)

brandon
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Dragons by Nature

my parents might be a little pissed if i go up north and dont come visit though
nothing wrong with novels, the more info the btter. just sometimes help to reemphasize main points hehe
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proud mama to:
1.0.0 ball python (mr snake),0.0.1 albino florida kingsnake (CK),1.1.0 leopard gecko (sebastian and vilma),0.1.0 colombian rainbow boa (luce),1.1.1 bearded dragon (kaipo, dulce, and kellen), 1.1.0 colombian redtailed boas (adam and eve)

First, you should be measuring your temps with a digital thermometer. Under no circumstances should you rely on any of the reptile thermometers on the market, especially the strips.

Second, I mostly agree with the other posts regarding temps. As for your sources, what makes you think Kaplan or deVosojli are better sources than keepers and breeders who specialize in this one species. For crying out loud, Kaplan still has a caresheet on her site that says that cornsnakes eat crickets! The point here, is take everything with a grain of salt.

Third, you're going to get more results from feeding many small meals than anything else mentioned. Many smaller crix (but not too small, I think you went up to quarter inch IIRC from an earlier post) will put weight on a dragon pretty fast. Each small cricket is much easier to digest. The faster they're digested and metabolized, the more can go in, and so on. As long as the temps are high enough to support that (I go with 100-105 on the surface of the basking spot, low 90's ambient warm end, mid-low 80's down to room temp on cool end,personally)digestion, you'll be OK. Just make sure they're getting crix dusted with calcium. ALL of the crix, plain calcium. If you have good UVB, then that should do. If you don't have a UVB you can dust one meal a day (he should be getting at least two feedings a day at his size) or one meal every other day with calcium with D3. Don't use liquid D3 supplements at all. Dust one time a week with a good reptile multivitamin like Herptivite. Get him to eat as much salad as you can as well, with a good base of collards, mustards, turnip greens or dandelion greens.

Good luck. And remember, if he STILL doesn't grow once he's started eating like a pig, that's OK too. Just keep feeding him. When he reaches his final adult size, or close to it, he'll start to slow down on the food intake on his own. He may just be a smallish dragon, or he may continue to grow for you now into the Beast that Ate All the Crickets. Time will tell.

I just remembered that you may have mentioned getting a digital thermometer earlier. If anything I posted is redundant advice, please excuse me, as I only scanned those earlier posts, and late at night. Good luck!

I agree about some of the info in the books. Vosjoli/Mailloux also say that a bearded can be kept on aquarium gravel or pebbles. They also recommend hot rocks.
What were they thinking??????

Actually, val, of babybeardeddragons.net has written one of the best books I've ever read. It's on the "available" page.

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TheClassyLizard

Personally I am glad to see people question tradition and information from books. Just because something has been done a certain way for 20 years doesn’t make it right. It is good to understand WHY it is right or wrong! I always listen when people with more experience than I have offer advice even when I don't agree. I still want to hear it and try to learn from it, right or wrong.

This guy is asking good questions and trying to understand, trying to educate himself; GOOD FOR YOU!

Many of the people here that answered your questions have bred hundreds if not thousands of Beardies. So do listen to them. It's great to get lots of facts from lots of people so that you can draw your own conclusions from contradictory opinions. In fact why don’t you email Melissa and Bob and ask them, they will answer you.

In the mean time... I suggest that if your enclosure is big enough, you up the temps to 115-120 at the highest point closest to the basking bulb, 105-110 at the ground. The cool side can be about 80. Check and see for yourself where your dragon spends time, how long and when. See for yourself if he goes to the heat or the shade. Beardies are smart enough to get out of the heat if it is to hot for them (heat from above, never use a hot rock). See for yourself what we already told you. Buy a temp gun and measure the temp where your dragon is and compare surface temp and ambient temps.

Keep asking questions, it's the only way to learn. And don't be afraid to ask again if you’re not satisfied with the answer.

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Bennett

www.beardiedragon.com

asking questions is good. asking why we do something a certain way is better. and explain how you do it is great...if what youre doing works but this guy is saying he doesnt know whats wrong, which is fine, except he argues with everything he's been told here. he's not saying 'i know you guys say X number of crix a day is great, but i use a different number and im getting good results...". he's just being argumentative

and if i remember correctly, he's using a ten gallon aquarium. hard to get a nice high basking spot (if he ever believes he needs it) without compromising the cool end
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proud mama to:
1.0.0 ball python (mr snake),0.0.1 albino florida kingsnake (CK),1.1.0 leopard gecko (sebastian and vilma),0.1.0 colombian rainbow boa (luce),1.1.1 bearded dragon (kaipo, dulce, and kellen), 1.1.0 colombian redtailed boas (adam and eve)

Well I guess I just stepped into a mess. I have not been able to keep up with posts over the past couple weeks. Guess I missed a few. 300 hungry mouths, outfitting my new lizard lounge, a couple of sick Beardies and trying to get ready for the Tampa show next weekend has been a bit much.

A 10 gallon tank??? No, that won’t work. How big is this little guy anyway?

Sometimes it's difficult to sort out all of the different opinions posted on the web. Not having a grasp of some terminology (ambient vs. surface temps) can make things seem even more confusing.

I am happy to offer advice to those seeking it. If they don't want to accept it, fine. When they come back again after not taking my advice asking the same question again though I am less likely to offer my help. Some people need to see for themselves and just need some extra help to light their way. I have had breeders offer me free advice that seemed absurd. I listened then moved on. Sometimes it seemed less absurd as I grew into the business and learned more. Fortunately, those breeders were still willing to offer more advice and I am glad I listened.
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Bennett

www.beardiedragon.com

300? good god!
personally, i got so sick of people asking stupid questions without ever trying to find out the answer (althoguh better to ask us then to never ever bother to find out) or asking questions and not listening to the answer that ive been staying away lately. and im not even one of the experts here ive vaguely followed this particular line of questions though. enough to know that this guy has gotten plenty of advice. deciding not to take it is fine, but then dont keep asking and moreover dont tell us why we're all wrong when you came here int he first place because what youre doing isnt working. ah well. the world is full of people that are gonna annoy me
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proud mama to:
1.0.0 ball python (mr snake),0.0.1 albino florida kingsnake (CK),1.1.0 leopard gecko (sebastian and vilma),0.1.0 colombian rainbow boa (luce),1.1.1 bearded dragon (kaipo, dulce, and kellen), 1.1.0 colombian redtailed boas (adam and eve)

I think you're right benette about asking ?'s and not listening to just one person or older books. Every day things are learned that contradict "older" beliefs.

I think that is the problem with things sometimes.. everyone has their own way and everyone thinks they are right. I think you made a good point he needs to see what works for his dragon since they are all not the same.

Asking opinions and advice from the more people the better I think.. and then taking what you have learned and apply it towards your personal situation is the key.

I think more of the problem was that guy asked and asked and asked and never agreed or what not about the posts but tried to be nice enough. I think what really got people is all the effort he put into trying to prove that what the people out there who were trying to help him are wrong. That was the sore spot. If he put that much effort into finding the answer in the first place he wouldn't have needed to ask our opinion on what to do.

Personally I don't care at all.. but I think that was the sore spot. Like I said before, the more ?'s asked and opinions given the better we will all be.

brandon
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Dragons by Nature

ones that co-authored some

As others said, there is a difference between ambient and surface temps.

Another thing to remember a dragon can gap or move away from heat when it is too high or uncomfortable if there is a cooler area, he can not put on a coat to get warmer if too cold.

Our adults are kept at 90-95, cause they want it that way, the babies slightly higher at 95-105, they have areas to move to if they are not happy with that, they rarely care too. Even outside, they have shade and lots of areas to go or hide, they choose to stay in the areas of that heat range.

Yea, I think that's an important point I may have missed last night.. not sure I posted too many messages

Only hatchlings for us have access to spot bulbs that goto the range of 110 to 115 with the cool end in the 80's to get away from. Our adults have a basking spot of around 95 to 100 normally.

Just wanted to make sure no one was saying that I think adults should have basking spots of 115 or so.

I still personally think it's important to have those high temps for hatchligs (i am talking under 4 weeks) to help get them active and searching for food properly with the right light as long as they can get away from the heat. I believe early in the morning this temps help them get going faster and to raise the tank up nicely.

During the day it's not as critical, but again right around that 115 spot is normally the range of 100 to 105 which is important when housing multiple hatchings per cage. If only the very small basking spot is 95 to 100 then the areas around that are normally gonna be lower which in my opinion causes problems with multiple dragons that can't all bask at the same spot. That was my point I was trying to make in an earlier post that I hope was understood.

brandon
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Dragons by Nature

miss or not be aware of: If a light or other heat source will raise the temperature of a chunk of rock, wood, etc. to 105-115 degrees, no matter what the surrounding air temps are, then it will most likely do the same with a dragon's body. But if it will only bring that temperature up to 90 or so, then that is most likely as warm as it'll get the dragon, no matter how long it sits under it.

I've always used surface temps to gauge how warm the animal is apt to get, at MOST. I do belive that if it's a bit too much, then it's okay, as long as it's not to an extreme.
As has been pointed out here, the dragon can move off to cool down, but it can't put on a coat or build a fire if it's not enough. ( At least I hope they can't build a fire... )

I think I'll take that drink now... Who's buying?

D.A.

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proud mama to:
1.0.0 ball python (mr snake),0.0.1 albino florida kingsnake (CK),1.1.0 leopard gecko (sebastian and vilma),0.1.0 colombian rainbow boa (luce),1.1.1 bearded dragon (kaipo, dulce, and kellen), 1.1.0 colombian redtailed boas (adam and eve)

Hi
115-110 is very good then they can digest there meal optimal and wil poop faster and eat faster and poop faster and so on !!
only they must have space to avoid the heat to, round the 80 cool side.
if am thinking of 100 watt in a 10 gallon with 2 fixures in it with tubes man is that not to much ???
what kind of spot you use???
i mean the shape ?
and you use a digital tempreader with a extra probe?
for adults you can drop temp to 110-105
byeeeeeee