Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Alright everyone,
You won't hear me [bleep] too often, but this is an issue that seriously haunts me when I think about the future of our hobby. A good many of you may take this as a personal attack, but please keep in mind that we pave the way for the up-and-coming the same way that it was paved for us.

I think that there are two well defined components to the "Herp Hobby" ONE: The captive care and maintenance and Breeding of reptiles and amphibians. This component in my opinion is the one that demands the most responsibility and TWO: The field. Catching and releasing or retaining specimens for research or for an addition to the captive collection, including photography and field notes. I love keeping, maintaining and even breeding reptiles, But hunting snakes in the wild is my absolute passion.

I'm sure that this will end up a moralistic issue but I think our hobby is moving at a dangerously fast pace. Especially when your talking about N. American species. The common Corn Snake (Pantherophis g. guttatus) Is a perfect example of what I'm talking about. I'm not going to sit here and play holier than thou. I've owned several different corn morphs in the past and my real beef isn't with the morphs as much as it is with the irresponsible and constant mixing of genes. These "morphs" are being caught in the wild now. I KNOW that hybridizing and inbreeding will eventually poison our wild populations. This is an inevitable fact.

I see breeders who initially came out preaching against hybridizing are the same breeders who are in a "Rat Race" for the newest hybrid. The bottom line is THERE IS NO REASON TO CROSS A CORN SNAKE TO A KING SNAKE! THERE IS NO REASON TO BREED A CORN SNAKE TO PINE/GOPHER/BULL SNAKE! you shouldn't do it just because you can. Why do we need to cross breed everything? I can't answer that but, I refuse to be a part of it. The Louisiana pine snake has been hybridized so many times that Pituophis lovers won't touch them because of the cloud that lingers around them. I think that we (and we are all in this together) are irresponsible. We've turned a blind eye to hybridizing and morph making for a turn of profit. A vendor at one of our local shows told me that I need to get with the times. Hybridizing snakes is the future of our hobby. Well my friends, I do not accept this Bull[bleep] answer.

My favorite snake out there is the Southern Hognose. I was approached by a gentleman at the Daytona show that wanted to buy an adult specimen from me to cross with a Western hognose. I bluntly told him that I would never sell him one of my animals. I'd rather let it go than to be that much a part of his intentions. Why aren't we content with what we've been given? If for some reason (And it would NEVER happen) I had two different species of snakes breed in my captive theater I would euthanize everyone of the offspring. If not, I've just muddied the waters. These animals will continually be bred to other specimens and the bloodline is ever changed. Before you know it you'll go out to your favorite albino Jungle corn hunting spot. The day that hybrids and morphs are a common place on the wild is the day that we have failed mother nature.

This really scares me.............

I'm open to everyone's input.

I think the damage is done and it has gone to far to stop it. it is sad but what can anyone do to stop it. YOU CANT WIN THIS BATTLE !! its to late.. sorry.

JIM

Jim,
It's called damage control. There is a mind-set that plagues many. It's where someone buys a 10$ corn snake that's het/homo or crossed with whatever and releases it into the wild. (I'm not singling out corns) But This will have detrimental effects on wild populations. I really hope that your mind set is one that is not shared by many. I do not say this to be insulting but We have an unwritten obligation to preserve the natural sources of the animals that we put so much heart and soul into. There is no denying it that many have taken a fly by the seat of their pants approach to a very delicate situation. I just wanted to shine a light on a situation that many think about and if not, they should. We need to teach and many need to learn responsibility in regards to breeding/maintaining our cold blooded friends.

Thanks for your reply.

Very respectfully,
Paul Bollinger

First thank you for rationally posting an alternative view on this forum. I don't think that anyone here should reasonably view anything you said as a personal attack.
My initial response is that none of the animals we produce should be showing up in the wild. Introduction of pathogens to wild populations is a much greater concern than the potential "poisoning" of wild populations. This applies as equally to the most exquisitely documented locality specific animals as it does to hybrids.
As an alternate view I would assert that a cross (say Bull X northern pine) that escapes or is released into the natural range of the LA pine would do one of two things. Either it wouldn't have the necessary characteristics to survive/breed in the wild or it would and its genetic makeup would be absorbed by the wild population.
Actually it's interesting that you should mention the LA pine as an example. In discussion with people who are at the center of this I've learned that you can say a few things when comparing and contrasting "pure" LA pines with hybrids. First you can't distinguish the two by phenotype, second genetic testing doesn't offer any further clues, third the "extrapolated" (pre-colonial) range of the LA pine could be described as intermediate to that of bull snakes and pine snakes and lastly ruthveni was only really given full species status for political reasons and its recent isolation. What I get from this is that, time was (recently by evolutionary standards) gene migration between LA pines and bulls (to the west) and southern/northern pines (to the east) was common. In this particular case the notion of a "pure" LA pine comes across as somewhat overblown. In my humble opinion the creation of these hybrids/crosses only made a rare phenotype more common in captivity. Given that all LA pine produced via ad hoc herpetocultural activities (whether "pure" or the result of breeder shenanigans) are not fit to be used for release into the wild the only effect is on the supply for the pet trade. All this being said I see no reason why avid field herpers need fear hybridization. As you said field herping and keeping and breeding are pretty distinguishable activities. The existence of a captive creation that is indistinguishable from a wild captured LA pine shouldn't diminish the thrill of finding one of these rare brutes in their home range. Even if you could tell that there was a little sayi in the wood pile (and you can't) if it looks like an LA pine has the genotype of an LA pine and is surviving in the home range of LA pines well, then its an LA pine!

Mr. Tony D.
Thanks for your reply. You are correct in saying that none of the animals that we produce should end up in the wild. Unfortunately they are. Crimsonking wrote "just to add to your fire, I found two amelanistic corns this year! I had no amels in the past, but do now! I am sure they were someone's escapees, but I wasn't going to let them go in my neighborhood." He is not the only one that has reflected these findings.
The introduction of pathogens into wild populations is definitely a serious concern. Inbred morphs and hybrids are once again, genetically inferior to the blood lines of the wild populations.
The more that inbreeding is used to get rid of undesirable traits or to fix a desirable trait, the more likely it is that individuals will also inherit the same set of genes for the immune system from both parents, and be born with less vigorous immune systems.
With that being said, when these genes are passed to wild populations pathogens that these wild populations have immunities to, are compromised and I believe in the long run hold catastrophic effects.
In regards to the La pine fiasco, you could apply your argument to many different species of snakes. Everything is recent in evolutionary standards. Louisiana pines were not given their own species listing because of political reasons. If you are telling me that there is no genetic difference between a Louisiana pine caught in Bienville parish and a Louisiana pine snake that has been crossed with a Northern Pine, I am in complete disagreement with you.
The reason that it has been given it's own species account is due to the fact that isolation has set it apart from the aforementioned bulls and southern/northern pines. They have evolved differently. This is noted especially in their egg yields and their overall adult size. Louisiana pines were not hybridized because of a relationship to the bulls and pines. they were hybridized because of the lack of "pure stock" availability. In turn, they were passed off as "pure stock", which has plagued the captive breeding of this species. I agree that these hybrids are not fit for release into the wild. Unfortunately any captive propagation for replenishment of wild populations would only be possible by extracting "pure bloodlines" and keeping them pure. Not crossbreeding to turn a quick buck which what's happened thus far.
thanks for your reply.
Very respectfully,
Paul Bollinger

:If you are telling me that there is no genetic difference between a Louisiana pine caught in Bienville parish and a Louisiana pine snake that has been crossed with a Northern Pine, I am in complete disagreement with you.

No you disagree with the evidence we are currently producing. You also have not addressed that gene flow existed in recent times between these groups and that the current isolation of ruthveni is largely, if not totally, a result of habitat manipulation on the part of our species.

Without seperating hybrids from any other naturally occuring species, dont you realize that the genetic makeup because of captive breeding will do nothing but increase the total genetic pool species like cornsnakes can draw from? That is in TOTAL, that is not to say that cornsnakes CANT be inbred repeatedly without some kind of inbreeding depression.But the fact that an albino from FL and a hypo from Md are put together to begin with would multiply the total differences what 10-100 fold rather than breeding locale specific.
On another line,of all the captive bred snakes that have been released in the wild,on purpose or by accident, how many have you found outcompeting ANY native snake?? The reason our native snakes ARE still there to begin with is that they are a hearty bunch and specifically designed for that environment. That is not to say that individuals cant survive or even out-perform natives in certain(small)circumstances. For those of us out there LOOKING for snakes, how many have found a non-native animal? How many have found more than 1 of that same species? This isnt Austrailia, our ecosystem can take care of itself. I would be more worried about those species that CAN readily adapt to situations,say similar species or locales.
Lastly, I think what you are talking about is the fact that the cornsnake(or any captive)will stop EVOLVING the way we have learned it the minute it is taken captive.What we do to the animals, what we feed them, artificial selection and morph production are basically all just manipulating the genes of the animal to fit US. We are the ones playing GOD,evolution will never be the same,Jeff

I see mediterranean geckos on a daily basis, and just this friday I found a Florida Brown Anole (I live in Texas). I see South American fire ants daily, which have caused the near extermination of Texas' beloved Horned Lizards and eat through the soft shells of reptile eggs. The accidental redistribution of the bullfrog has diminished populations of red and yellow-legged frogs, and you seem to be forgetting the Brown Tree Snake catastrophe that occured on Guam. A certain First Lady (Dumb woman- I can't remember which one) released aquatic plants into Louisiana swamps and now they are choking out the native swamp flora. Just look at the Gray Wolf hybrid issue. Sorry, my friend, but you are wrong. Any redistibution of wildlife you commit is likely to alter aspects of the ecosystem in negative ways. Hybrids belong in captivity, and that's that.

Don't forget zebra mussels, iguanas, nutrias, Asian ladybugs, Asian tiger mosquitos, starlings, English sparrows, and CATS... No wonder our ecosystem can take care of itself, half of it is from the other side of the world!
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Peter: It's OK, I'll handle it. I read a book about something like this.
Brian: Are you sure it was a book? Are you sure it wasn't NOTHING?

It was in emphasizing that despite all the breedings and possible catastrophes that we make by mistake or on purpose, that nothing noticably significant has impacted our wildlife yet. My take was on OUR contributions, not that of others,Jeff

Jeff,
If you get a chance, take a trip down to Miami Fla. and then you can re-post your findings on how significantly we've affected an ecosystem. By pointing out an issue that is still early in it's noticable effects, doesn't mean that the point is moot because it doesn't exist in your part of the country. I'm simply trying to point out something that will eventually have detrimental effects on our wild populations. Remember always err on the side of caution.
Paul Bollinger

I am not talking about ALL WILDLIFE, I am not talking about ecosystems,I am not talking about ALL REPTILES, I am talking about SNAKES.There is the case of the Brahminy blind snake establishing itself down there from imported flower pots, but this species is asexual right? In this country, are there ANY established breeding populations of non-native snakes that have been caught by anyone reading this forum??

http://www.southalley.com/snakes_exotic.html

Check it out Jeff. Cut and Paste this link.

I lived in SW florida for 16 years. The place is a melting pot for everything.
Paul Bollinger

As a biologist I could never overlook the s.fl. problems but I was referring specifically to SNAKES. I dont think you read that the first time. So, isnt it interesting even in south florida where there are a myriad of ecological problems that we dont have ANY other/significant snake problems either here or elsewhere in the country?I can even hypothesize why,but I am afraid I am the wrong forum for this discussion. Not enough intelligent life,lol,Jeff

Well Jeff,
I'm sorry that there isn't enough intellect here to keep you interested. I'm just an ignorant country boy that shares the same interests of your highness, LOL.
Paul Bollinger

In an email to me earlier:

Paul, not enough time for this,lol,going to bed. My post was about snakes,the
first,second,third and fourth ones were all about snakes. I dont know why you
crawled up on your soapbox in the hybrid forum of all places,lol,but all you had
to say was "NO"or even nothing.....you didnt mention snakes in your
3-4 posts so you never answered the questions that I posed.This makes me now
wonder why you followed-up at all.You made my point for me,good nite,Jeff

This message was sent to you by the user: Jeff Schofield
from Kingsnake.com - Herpforum at http://forums.kingsnake.com

Jeff,
I'm sorry that I didn't say SNAKES enough. ALL of my posts were in regard to SNAKES. This is a response that I was told that I would get from the people that are into morph making and hybridizing. I simply stated my point, and even asked for input. I don't think I "crawled up on my soap box" as you so childishly put it. I stood up and stated my position. I've backed it with valid points and my hypothesis. I think you feel as if you've been cheated out of my answers to your questions so here you go.

1. Without separating hybrids from any other naturally occurring species, don't you realize that the genetic makeup because of captive breeding will do nothing but increase the total genetic pool species like corn snakes can draw from?

Answer: I feel that the hybrids and the man made morphs pose a reasonable threat to the gene pools of wild populations of SNAKES. Genetic degradation, which is a bi-product of inbreeding, which is the process of man made morphs, creates recessive "bad genes" That can be passed on to wild SNAKE populations. These man made morphs are being caught in the wild more and more frequently this is an uncontestable FACT. I think that this freelance mind set is dangerous.

2. On another line,of all the captive bred snakes that have been released in the wild,on purpose or by accident, how many have you found outcompeting ANY native snake??

Answer: You turned this discussion in the direction of non-native vs. native. I posted a link that clearly showed that non-native SNAKES have successfully taken a hold on our soil. My point is that we (breeders) have created Frankenstein SNAKES and I pointed out that there was a risk associated with these SNAKES passing their genes on to the wild populations of SNAKES. Thanks for bringing up this issue. Although I think that it's off topic, it definitely points out that careless practices carry detrimental effects.

3.For those of us out there LOOKING for snakes, how many have found a non-native animal? How many have found more than 1 of that same species? ----AND----

4.In this country, are there ANY established breeding populations of non-native snakes that have been caught by anyone reading this forum??

Answer: Once again just cut and paste. http://www.southalley.com/snakes_exotic.html
http://biology.usgs.gov/s+t/noframe/x187.htm

5.So, isn't it interesting even in south florida where there are a myriad of ecological problems that we dont have ANY other/significant snake problems either here or elsewhere in the country?

Answer: Do you think that these issue stops at Florida? I hope your right if your answer is yes. I think that to just write it off as a Florida problem is foolish. SNAKES don't reproduce at the same rate as the Non-native Frogs do. I think this is the reason why they haven't posed a noticeable problem in the same amount of time. I think that one day you'll look back and say HMMMM, he may have been right. Honestly, I hope you don't have to.

I have gone back and answered all of the questions that you have asked. If by chance I have missed one, please by all means feel free to challenge me.

Furthermore, I'm glad that you are a Biologist. That does not make you the beginning and end of all discussion. There are many things in this world that can't be learned in a book. I appreciate your achievements, however we never stop learning. I hope that you take a more open-minded approach to your work than you do to concerns by people that don't carry a biology degree. I care about this hobby as I'm sure you do. I think that we're fighting for the same thing, we just have different concerns. Either way, I don't want this to turn into a flame session, But my reasonable concerns will not be muted by JeffBiologist because you carry a degree. I hope that we can have more educated debates in the future. I'm sure that there is a lot that I can learn from you. I promise that I'll never make any statements to you like this......

I can even hypothesize why,but I am afraid I am the wrong forum for this discussion. Not enough intelligent life,lol,Jeff

Sincerely,
Paul Bollinger

Didn't see anything about hybrids or morphs contaminating populations just speculation about the establishment of an EXOTIC species. BIG BIG BIG difference from where this thread started. Not to say that establishment of exotics isn't an issue but I fail to see the conection with your rant over hybrids and exotics. (Keep in mind I only call it a "rant" because that's how you classified it on the other forum site)

Can't say for Jeff Paul but I've been there and done that. Not to say that hybrids exotics aren't a problem but they are but a small part of the mix down there. Diversion of the everglades and uncontrolled developement play bigger parts in the degradation. If as a society we were putting significant tracts aside for long term concervation I would be right with you but untill that time I think this line of thought is a moot point at least for the sighted example of S FL.

Back to my thread; that LA pines and hybrids are phenotypical;ly and genetically indistinguishable is not MY piont. I don't know if I buy it either but it was put forth by a considered authority on the subject who also considers himself quite the locality/purity nut. My point was simply that notions of purity are often overblown, as in the case you sighted, and the problem might not be as significant as you think. After all the evolutionary trajectory of NA reptiles took a drastic turn the moment Europeans set foot on the continent. Ignoring the continued impact of uncontrolled developement and utter lack of consistant concervation policy since the TR administration while giving lip service to the potential "damage" released hybrids are causing doesn't make sence to me. Kind of like worrying about a hang nail when the lion is about to take a bite out of your backside.

It's obvious that you aren't willing to open your mind to the fact that there is a problem. That's ok. IRT South Florida, I lived there for 16 years. In that time I've spent countless hours in the field. I'm saying that we should look at the calamity of South Florida and realize that it is very easy to reproduce that in our own backyards not just write it off as a moot point. By the way, there are significant tracts of land put aside for long term conservation in the Sunshine State.

Back to your thread re: La Pines, Your point WAS that "pure blooded" specmens are indistinguishable from hybrids. I think you put it something like.... "First you can't distinguish the two by phenotype, second genetic testing doesn't offer any further clues..." I'm not sure who the "Considered Authority" was but my Authority on the Louisiana Pine snake is Terry Vandeventer. I'm sure that ALL people who own La Pine hybrids think that the whole "purity thing" is overblown.

Second, I do not ignore lack of consistant concervation. It is a problem that plagues all, But for you to try to turn the table to in effort to disregard my point is silly. The problem still exists. I'm sorry if it doesn't make sense to you.

Very respectfully,
Paul Bollinger

I think what is obvious Paul is that you are on a crusade whether you present it "very respectfully" or not. I've never said that release of hybrids isn't a problem instead I've simply pointed out that ALL released captive animals are a problem. Further your characterization of S FL's problems as genetic contamination, to paraphrase your point, do to release of hybrids and morphs is over simplified. I would go so far as to say that its even silly. After 16 year living there you don't see that there is a lot more going on down there of greater concern than a few jungle or amel corns on the prowl? I would look to massive manipulation of ground/surface waters, subdivision of natural areas into smaller and less cohesive units and the introduction of EXOTICS, which DISPLACE natural populations as the primary cause of S FL's problems.

That being said, do I think your point is a non-issue? No! As a matter of fact during the nine years that I promoted the Virginia Captive-Bred Reptile Expo I handed EVERY attendee (that’s EVERY OWNER AND POTENYIAL NEW owner of captive-bred reptiles) a flyer about this very subject. I've invested time, effort and money into the distribution of literally thousands of flyers on this very point and it is grossly unfair that you fly off and characterize me as narrow-minded when in fact I'm the one trying to broaden the discussion.

Back to ruthveni, my source is KJ Lodrigue, whom I believe is equally involved and respected as TV on this subject. I was asserting a view which as I've said I'm not sure I buy (in totality) but concede that it offers an interesting perspective of which I am open minded enough to entertain. BTW KJ calls impure LA pines hybrids too but is at least honest enough to admit that current evidence regarding this topic makes it so he isn't totally comfortable doing so.

In responce to your comment that "ALL people who own La Pine hybrids think that the whole "purity thing" is overblown." You seem to be making the assumption that I'm defending my stock. FYI, I've never had nor intend to have LA pines. Never actually been one for working with ugly snakes just becasue they're rare.

Tony D,
If you want to parallel my opinion to a crusade I won't down you for it. You are entitled to your crusade as well. I however have posted my opinion and my fears. That may go against the grain but, Oh well. You'll get over it. Or not.

Now back to the subject at hand, I have not characterized SW Florida's problems as a genetic contamination. That would be a ridiculous statement. Mr. Jeff Schofield asked what non-native species of snakes exist in the US. ( In this country, are there ANY established breeding populations of non-native snakes that have been caught by anyone reading this forum??) So I showed him. I acknowledge the fact that and agree with your statement that Florida has a lot bigger fish to fry. I was pointing out that we've historically taken the stance that everything is going to be alright and yet we continue to screw everything up. The passion that I have for this hobby causes me to take the defensive aspect. I think that we are really fouling up a great, Great thing.

If you, in fact, hand EVERY attendee (that’s EVERY OWNER AND POTENTIAL NEW owner of captive-bred reptiles) a flyer about this very subject. Then you are in agreement with me, and arguing for no real reason. I apologize if you feel that you were unfairly characterized as narrow minded. I was merely stating that in regards to the content of your previous post.

Back to ruthveni, I am aware that KJL has been involved in the La pines. However you asserted a view that you later stated that you weren't sure if it was true or not. Why assert it at all? For you to say that genetic testing offers no evidence that can differentiate a hybridized La pine and A pure bred specimen is absolutely ridiculous. You said it, not me. If you are open-minded enough to believe a statement of that caliber, Then why are you challenging a statement such as mine. If KJL calls an impure La Pine a hybrid then why would he be uncomfortable in doing so? I think you need to stop being his spokesman so that the public doesn't think that he shares the statements that you are conveying to us. You said that La pines were given their own species account due to political reasons. Right! and my post's are off base? C'mon.

And lastly, I believe that beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I am not attacking your stock. I don't know or care about what you own. So please don't think that I'm attacking your animals.

Paul Bollinger

I agree with 100% with everything you said. While some of the morphs may be pretty they are just unnatural and there is no reason to do it. I mean aren't many of these hybrids born sterile anyways. Why not breed a pure breed and nicer looking snake that will produce fertile babies. I guess I will never understand you hybridizers.Scott
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signature field has been edited to remove comments which circumvent this sites filter.

Edited on December 8, 2003 at 10:03:23 by phwyvern.

Thanks Scott,
You often catch a lot of flack when speaking your mind but, I think that this is an issue that needs to be considered by all. Even if it's written off 5 minutes after reading it.

Once again thanks,
Paul Bollinger

n/p

Reason?!? Who are you?! What position in life is yours that your OPINION matters to anyone but yourself. Sorry but you crossed a line with me. There is no REASON to breed morphs? What REASON do you have for breeding anything? Certainly you are not naive enough to believe that you could release your "pure" offspring into the wild? And where do you get this "aren't most hybrids are sterile anyway" misinformation? Why don't you spend a little more time reading and a little less typing. It will do your knowledge base some good. Morphs are unNATURAL?!? REALLY! Where were the first hypos, amels, anerythristics, motleys, etc. on and on found? IN THE WILD. How is something nature itself created unNATURAL?!? Sure some combinations are captive produced but these are only possible with what nature provided. Personally, I don't think hybrid breeders care whether or not you will ever understand them. The thought processes you have expressed here are much more difficult to assign logic to.

I keep my mouth shut here most of the time because I am aware that those who keep/breed hybrids will continue to do so. And those that have arguments against it will continue to also. No minds will be changed. But, here is one statement I challenge you to oppose. Who are you going to blame for the next naturally occuring hybrid that is found? And why is it that the littermates of the ones that have been discovered haven't started this ecological armeggedon that all of you anticipate?

Horridus

What are you guys on anyway? Seems like its pretty good stuff whatever it is.

Hey there Horridus!
If you'd like to know who I am, look at the bottom of each of my posts. I will not hide behind such an original Screen Name has you have chosen to do. Before you make yourself look like a complete and utter ass, please recognize the fact that I'm posting MY OPINION on a public forum. These forums are designed so that opinions, no matter how much you dislike them, are all valid and open to PUBLIC DISCUSSION.

There is a difference, in my opinion, to hybridizing and morph inbreeding and the hobby of keeping and breeding species for the love of doing so. I think that what has been done in regards to hybridizing and morph making has been wrong at best. Before you make another statement that shows that you are reading what you want to read, re-read this thread and show me where, in any of these post's, that I've made the statement that I could release any of my "Pure" offspring into the wild. Also please tell me where I said that "aren't most hybrids sterile" I've never said anything like that. You need to take a deep breath send a little oxygen to that brain of yours and quit fabricating. So that you have a little clarity, Morphs are not unnatural. What we've done to these morphs by constantly inbreeding and mixing and inbreeding again IS NOT NATURAL. P.s. Nature has provided many things that we've ruined.
You have degraded your status by this post alone. Please don't quote me again unless you are actually going to quote me correctly. You have offered up nothing. I urge you to find someone that's literate, to read this thread to you. If you can't find one, please give me a call, I'll be more than happy to help you. I think that you are correct in the statement that hybridizing and the "Morph Machine" will not stop. I do however counter that these are unethical practices. Once again we are violating preciousness for the all mighty dollar.

I will answer your question by retorting with another...........

Is there a difference between a naturally occurring hybrid in the wild and a man made hybrid? Please tell me no. Please.

And for bluerosy, thanks for your contribution to this thread, Your point is well taken although I'm not sure it's the one you were trying to make.
---"What are you guys on anyway? Seems like its pretty good stuff whatever it is."---

Paul Bollinger
Bayou.Surreal.Reptiles

Paul,

I think if you take some time, you might see that this post was NOT directed toward you or your opinion. For some reason when I replied to Scott's message it posted further down. But I didn't think that this would be as difficult to figure out as it has obviously been for you. It was directed at someone else and his stated thoughts. (see below) So, my statements had little/nothing to do with your argument. Like I said I don't try to change minds here because it is a lost cause. I found your post amusing however. Thanks for the entertainment.

I guess I will have to just go away now. My "status has been lowered"......Jesus, you are pathetic.

And to your question.....the context of wild hybrids to which I was referring was about the genepool contamination issue. For example, An atricaudats x adamanteus hybrid has been found in the wild in southen AL. Where are the other 8-10 siblings? Did none of them make it to adulthood? (That one had) If they did, did they just choose to not reproduce with one or the other parent species? Are all the adamanteus and horridus atricaudatus impure in that area?

And yes the only way that the comparison can be made between a naturally occuring hybrid and a captive produced one is on the basis that they are both cross specific and the root of all fears for some people have about ecological disaster regarding the "purity" of "wild" "natural" species. So you will have to save that remedial argument for someone less intelligent.

Horridus
Bart Borchert

Posted by: sepultura4ever at Wed Oct 29 09:59:29 2003 [ Report Abuse ] [ Email Message ]

I agree with 100% with everything you said. While some of the morphs may be pretty they are just unnatural and there is no reason to do it. I mean aren't many of these hybrids born sterile anyways. Why not breed a pure breed and nicer looking snake that will produce fertile babies. I guess I will never understand you hybridizers.Scott

Horridus,
This is a public forum designed for sharing our thoughts about various issues that come up, no need to throw a tantrum because you don't agree. I stand behind my statement that there is no reason to breed Hybrids and I think any herp enthusiasts with Morals would agree with me. Tne natural occurring animals are fine the way they are, why do people feel they need to fix everytihg or make it better when it is already good. I mean do you really think that Corn Snakes are going to start breeding with Honduran Milk Snakes in the wild, if u know of an instance when something along these lines has happened let us know. When I said morphs I was referring to the offspring of the Hyrbidized animals,my fault for not wording that better. As for hybride being sterile I said "I thought most of them are sterile" and not "all of them are sterile" I was just going off of info I have read on this own forum in numerous posts. If I was wrong, would you be willing to provide with info that suggests otherwise. Anyway I really have no desire to get into a long and pointless debate over the issue so i'll stop here. Good Day.Scott Wahlberg
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signature field has been edited to remove comments which circumvent this sites filter.

Edited on December 8, 2003 at 09:49:37 by phwyvern.

:I stand behind my statement that there is no reason to breed Hybrids and I think any herp enthusiasts with Morals would agree with me.

Another way of saying the same thing is that any herp enthusiasts who doesn't agree with you lacks morals.

Free expression on an open forum is one thing, making moral pronouncements based on personal opinion is another.

Generally things get out of line when one side or the other sees things in strickly black and white terms. Its kind of like the abortion issue. I'm sure everyone would like to at least see a lot fewer of them but that central truth can't come to the surface when both sides focus on extreme views.

Just a thought from out in left field.

Do you realize the gravity of statements such as "there is no reason for you to...."?

What are you going to say when someone tells you there is no reason for you to keep snakes at all? Would that upset you?

Yes this is a forum for public opinion....and I have as much a right to mine as you do to yours. If I think your thoughts on what I should/should not do and my morals are completely out of line I AM going to speak up in defense of personal freedom. You made your comments, I made mine. You don't like the way I said what I did....so be it.

If you had read the entire post you would see I also have NO interest in getting into a hybrid argument with someone who has already made up their mind about the issue. So we are in aggreement there. What you said reeks of the same thought process that Animal Rights, Gun Control, Socialists and other groups who want to control the activities of others spout.

And yes there are MANY examples of fertile hybrids. Am I going to take the time to show you the evidence? Or for that matter the evidence of bairdi x guttata, adamanteus x atricaudatus, willardi x lepidus, etc. No, I'm not. If you want to expand you knowledge base on the subject, do it yourself. The information is out there for anyone to review.

Horridus
Bart Borchert
"Immoral and of Low Standing"

FYI- since we're all for sharing info, Horridus, many hybrids are born sterile or with some kind of effect. I have often wondered if that is why they are relatively uncommon in the wild.

By the way- Scott is a partially racist american who supports gun rights and hates PETA and other animal rights groups. Comparing him to those things was hilarious. I can't wait til he reads it!

w w w . f i e l d h e r p e r s . c o m

Look man, I know that Scott seems to be a pretty good guy. I have enjoyed both of you guys posts on the "other site" but the fact remains What would happen If I went to the Indigo Forum and made statements to the effect of there is no "reason" for people to keep and breed them because they are not well suited for captivity and the wild status of couperi? Think I would get slammed? Well what do you expect when you come to the Hybrid forum and make similar statements based on your pseudomorality?
I don't know him well enough to make personal statements about him as you have. But I can draw conclusions from the statements made here which is what I did. I don't even have any hybrids right now! I don't breed them. But I hate it when someone wants to spout this crap about impending doom regarding escaped hybrids. Do you know how long this has been going on? I saw a Sinduran at Henry Dean's house when I was THIRTEEN years old I am 29 now does that tell you anything?? And I dare say that those were not the first ones ever. And my experience is in direct contridiction with yours regarding hybrid infertility. What species were involved? Almost everything I have seen/sold/kept colubrid wise has been fertile to the same degree as pure species. I know that Burticks, Carpondros, Borneo Balls and others have yet to be proven but I would put money on them being able to reproduce sucessfully. Anyway, glad to hear from someone that knows him that scott is not a bedwetting treehugger but he should stop talking like one!

Horridus
Bart Borchert

Look man I probobaly should have worded that whole thing better. I brought that on myslef, hybridizing is just a sore subject with me and I tend to be vocal about it is all. Happy herping.Scott
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signature field has been edited to remove comments which circumvent this sites filter.

Edited on December 8, 2003 at 09:41:44 by phwyvern.

Both triangulum, right? Wierd no doubt, and not a natural intergrade, but probably called intergrade.

About the only way you can get breeders to stop producing morphs and hybrids is to persuade legislatures to make laws prohibiting them. And if you do that, most likely those legislatures will make laws prohibiting all snakes as pets, including yours.

So instead of coming over here and ranting, why don't you give some thought as to how to use organisations already in place so as to allow for purebreeders to purebreed without having to worry about accidentally acquiring a hybrid snake that looks like a purebred. Purebred dog breeders do it, purebred cat breeders do it, purebred beef breeders do it, so surely purebred snake breeders ought to be able to figure out how to do it too. And allow hybridizers to produce new lines of domesticated animal without being hassled by the purists. All that hassling does is divide the pet snake owners and makes it easier for legislatures to pass laws forbidding snake ownership.

I might point out, incidentally, that one of the purebred lines of beef is the beefalo breed. Yes, it's a breed and it started out with hybrids. And one can cite at least a few other domestic animals - mice, hogs and wagtail platyfish/swordtails - as examples where hybridization has played an important roll in the domestication process. It obviously is also going to play an important role in the snake domestication process unless, of course, those who don't want people to have any pets other than dogs and cats get their way. Internal wrangling among the snake owners can only help those who oppose our ownership of these beautiful animals.

Doc

some people out there who would like to control what other people do when it comes to their own breeding plans! Do those same people forget what America is about?????

Funny how my post for hybrids was deleted, considering it had no bad language. I think there is a biased mod.
Demon