Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Alright everyone,
You won't hear me [bleep] too often, but this is an issue that seriously haunts me when I think about the future of our hobby. A good many of you may take this as a personal attack, but please keep in mind that we pave the way for the up-and-coming the same way that it was paved for us.

I think that there are two well defined components to the "Herp Hobby" ONE: The captive care and maintenance and Breeding of reptiles and amphibians. This component in my opinion is the one that demands the most responsibility and TWO: The field. Catching and releasing or retaining specimens for research or for an addition to the captive collection, including photography and field notes. I love keeping, maintaining and even breeding reptiles, But hunting snakes in the wild is my absolute passion.

I'm sure that this will end up a moralistic issue but I think our hobby is moving at a dangerously fast pace. Especially when your talking about N. American species. The common Corn Snake (Pantherophis g. guttatus) Is a perfect example of what I'm talking about. I'm not going to sit here and play holier than thou. I've owned several different corn morphs in the past and my real beef isn't with the morphs as much as it is with the irresponsible and constant mixing of genes. These "morphs" are being caught in the wild now. I KNOW that hybridizing and inbreeding will eventually poison our wild populations. This is an inevitable fact.

I see breeders who initially came out preaching against hybridizing are the same breeders who are in a "Rat Race" for the newest hybrid. The bottom line is THERE IS NO REASON TO CROSS A CORN SNAKE TO A KING SNAKE! THERE IS NO REASON TO BREED A CORN SNAKE TO PINE/GOPHER/BULL SNAKE! you shouldn't do it just because you can. Why do we need to cross breed everything? I can't answer that but, I refuse to be a part of it. The Louisiana pine snake has been hybridized so many times that Pituophis lovers won't touch them because of the cloud that lingers around them. I think that we (and we are all in this together) are irresponsible. We've turned a blind eye to hybridizing and morph making for a turn of profit. A vendor at one of our local shows told me that I need to get with the times. Hybridizing snakes is the future of our hobby. Well my friends, I do not accept this Bull[bleep] answer.

My favorite snake out there is the Southern Hognose. I was approached by a gentleman at the Daytona show that wanted to buy an adult specimen from me to cross with a Western hognose. I bluntly told him that I would never sell him one of my animals. I'd rather let it go than to be that much a part of his intentions. Why aren't we content with what we've been given? If for some reason (And it would NEVER happen) I had two different species of snakes breed in my captive theater I would euthanize everyone of the offspring. If not, I've just muddied the waters. These animals will continually be bred to other specimens and the bloodline is ever changed. Before you know it you'll go out to your favorite albino Jungle corn hunting spot. The day that hybrids and morphs are a common place on the wild is the day that we have failed mother nature.

This really scares me.............

I'm open to everyone's input.

So would you say it's ok to breed morphs if the snake is from a different continent? I'm way into Kenyan sand boas. It's debatable if there are any actual subspecies but there are a few distinct localties. All the morphs are crosses of these localities. I managed to get a couple pure animals (Egyptians and Tanzanians), but I like the morphs too and I don't see where propagating them is hurting anything. They're by no means a rare snake in the wild.
I don't currently breed any North American species but I can just imagine how I'd feel if people were releasing Kenyans back into the wild willy nilly so I can understand the concern pretty well.
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Peter: It's OK, I'll handle it. I read a book about something like this.
Brian: Are you sure it was a book? Are you sure it wasn't NOTHING?

I really think Bayou has a good point. Why are people crossing alterna x pyro x ruthveni x nelsoni etc. etc.? Are the resulting offspring really more interesting than the pure form? Personally, I don't think so. Nature has created a slate blue and bright orange form of blairi. It cannot be improved upon by crossing it to a cornsnake.

"History teaches us that men behave wisely once they've exhausted all other alternatives"

How is it that its inevitable that hybrids and inbred animals are going to poison wild populations?

First off, the negative connotations associated with being inbred stem from a condition where an animal's viability has been compromised through line breeding. Such a result is generally considered poor husbandry and is not attributable to line breeding alone. In fact, line breeding, when done properly, is intended to and does lead to selection of superior traits. In any case say a pure but inbred corn snake escapes into a wild population. It may actually contain a sequence not found in the original population. If this sequence proves detrimental in the new local it will be selected against. It will only spread if it proves beneficial. Disregarding all the valid arguments about captive animals getting loose in the wild, this example would undercut your notion of inbred animals polluting wild gene pools. Now it might offend some bodies notion of "pure" locality but that is another argument.

I approach hybrids differently as I too am not comfortable with the idea of CA king genes floating around in Jasper County SC. However, IMHO this represents an unlikely scenario. An aspect of this hybrid hysteria that is generally missed is that animals occasionally do hybridize under natural conditions. Diamondback X camebreak crosses are not unheard of. The Barkers imported a gravid emerald tree boa that gave birth to what looked to be emerald X amazon tree crosses. Yellow X red rats have been found in GA. Milksnakes intermediate to the coastal plains milk and the scarlet king snake appear on NC's Albemarle Peninsula. Does this mean that phenotypically "pure" animals from these areas are impure? Have these populations been forever altered? The answer to each question is simply no. Yes hybridization does occur but as it doesn't happen very often and, as these offspring have no real suvival advantage the associates species remain phenotypically distinct. Now lets apply this same principle to a jungle corn. Not being nearly as superbly adapted to the wilds of SE SC as native corns, which already have a high mortality rate, it would be lucky survive even one season much less live long enough to propagate. Its brief presents in the gene pool would no more effect the distinctiveness of native corns than their occasional natural hybridization with obsolata.

All this is not to say that you haven't raised or touched on some valid concerns because you have. I just think that we need to stick to the issues of protecting wild populations and not take approaches that inadvertently throw disparagements towards other herpers. What we really need to do is educate all herpers about the dangers of releasing ANY captive herp into the wild. We need to spend a little less time breeding, selling and or field herping and a little more time giving educational programs to the non herping community. I remember when other than being in the field this was the BIG activity! We also need to be more involved and make sure our voices are heard concerning conservation efforts. For too long herp conservation has received too little attention and funding. We also need to be politically aware because policy changes that effect natural resources are afoot. If you what to preserve what's left and not hand it over to a bunch of ATV enthusiasts you better get to know where your congressman and Senator stand on such issues. If they don't reflect your values let them know how you feel or lend your support to someone who does during the next election.

Bayou and Tony both have very valid points which work well together. Releasing any animal into the wild has more problems than easily perceived. Anything other than a quick catch and release for photos ect (back to the same exact spot) should be avoided. If you don't believe me or your peers, look up any environmental biologist with half a brain and you will recieve a very similar answer.
The question is, where to draw the line? Breeding kings and corns may be wrong so is species to species crosses all bad then? Tony pointed out that this happens in the wild. I say let it happen in the wild, and personal opinion prohibits me from doing it in my home. As far as the image of the hobby goes however, it looks a whole lot better to Joe public (educationally and proffesionally) if a cornsnake is a cornsnake and a kingsnake is a kingsnake. I hate to always pick on the dogs, but what looks better on paper, the mutt or the purebred? Not that this matters, cuz dogs are domesticated and we've already agreed that releasing animals into the wild is a bad protocol, but what we are talking about are principles. Why do something just because it can be done? I can demoralize the next stranger I come across with nasty figures of speech but I do not because I believe in my principles right? Thus I appear as a better person ya da yada but get my point? It's not all laws that hold a society together. The society of herpers that we are should stay withen a certain unwritten code of ethics which somehow appears missing. I am not the person to set these standards, but do we agree we just may need to be more than a bunch of mad scientists creating whatever comes next?

I have heard this "doing something just because it can be done" before, as well as describing people who hybridize herps as "mad scientists"

I don't think the latter is fair, nor do I think these people are doing it just because it can be done.

Many of the hybrids I have seen are quite beautiful and are viable individuals in their own right.

As to the reasons someone would do it -- they must range from business reasons (a unique snake may fetch more money) all the way to the personal satisfaction of it as a hobby.

I am a newbie, but have really been trying to understand the emotion some people have on teh subject, but I think the purist breeders are against it because they fear the genetic makeup of what seems like a certain purebred line may get "infiltrated" with the genes of a hybrid at some point by a less than honest breeder. I don't think this should affect how one views the practice, only how one can trust any individual.

Can anyone give me a better idea as to why some are so vehemetly against this practice ?? I think the "introduction to the wild" idea has been discredited as a real good reason to be against the practice, seeing that hybridization does happen in the wild to some small degree.

I guess I should apologize for using the term "mad scientist" as I guess I did offend a few. Anyways, the differences on this topic are generally the "nature nuts" vs the "collectors". I use nature nut to describe those who like to see things as originally created. They vary from being against pets entirely (PETA for ex.), to against hybrids, or morphs, or mixing different locales even. We all draw the line in a slightly different place. The specific example of kings and corn hybrids is backed by these two species not normally meeting in the wild. Another example may be boa constrictors. Many pets are basically unidentifiable as to their localle, Guyannin? Columbian? Peruvian ect.. Does this make them poor pets? not at all, however some people would draw the line against breeding different locales because they wouldn't meet inthe wild. The europeans are big on this.
I use "collectors" loosly to describe those for hybrids ect. They range from business minded people looking for the next craze (both nature nuts and collectors can be business men, not always a bad thing), to "toy or baseball card" collectors, or just someone who wants something that is rare or brand new. I don't need to sound biased, as lots of collectors still retain that these are animals, and living things ect. This is not to say that either nature nuts or collectors are right or wrong, good or bad, and most people are a little of both. It's hard not to be.
We must keep in mind why this debate is going on anyways. Whatever views and opinions we have, we need to look far into the future as to what we may be starting. It's just holding a little responsibility to having captive animals as pets. In the future, I feel it looks as the herp trade is following the dog and cat trade where there is a wild population and a domestic population that are quite different. To points to make however would be that if this looks to be true, lets all learn from their mammilian mistakes so as not to do the same ourselves. Another point is that the herping trade still uses wild catching and releasing which will alter where we are going. For some species the captive population is larger than the wild population. In this case, the captive population may quite different thus if the wild pop becomes extinct then the species isn't quite saved...
Just a bunch of questions to further the debate I guess,
Hope this helps

Reasonable post Joey! Can't find a fault with a thing you said. As for how far "I" think it should go. Crossing (breeding subs to subs) I would keep it to adjacent subspecises. When dealing with generic animals I see no problem producing a cross that looks like an integrade. I have done this on limited occasion, properly labled the animals and found them well recieved. The first time I did this was with a line bred 50/50 dessert phase CA king and a line bred sockhead splendita. Funny one guy in Orlando called them abominations but ended up getting a pair and even rought a friend to the table the following year to get a pair.

As for hybrids, I personally have no problem with others doing it though I have never initiated such a project. Generally, its my opinion that natural types are more pleasing but some of the albino ruthveni X mexicana complex animals are extremely attractive serpernts and I've been wrestling with getting some for years!

IN any case Paul did start a tread that needs further discussion in the community and though I personally disagree with the extent of his views am thankful that he brought it up.

My opinion may not be popular to you but I have a question and I don't want to offend you in any way. So the question is: do you think the Simus could have possibly been crossed to the nasicus?
I actually believe that there is a place for a pure strain and a place for hybrids and morphs. In the Simus X Nasicus I do see the benefits. Some people, like myself love all hognoses but have to stick to mostly Westerns due to lack of amphibians (Southern California). So maybe this new hybrid would have the great looks of the Southern Hognose and be easily switched over to mice. Does this sound like a benefit? It does to me. Now you may have a problem with feeding Easterns and Southerns mice but there are alot of people who have a problem "depleating" the amphibian population to feed hognose snakes. It is not like toads can be bred in racks in the garage, though it would be nice. It would be real nice.This is a whole other issue.
It is probably very obvious that I am new to the whole scene and hybrids and morphs and such are very interesting and exiteing to me. This is mostly because I grew up in Houston. Herping was my past time and there were reptiles and amphibians galore everywhere you looked. We had a surplus. The first snake I ever bought in my life was a greeri from the IRBA Pamona show 4 years ago. Since then I have been amazed and fascinated at all the new morphs and hybrids.
I'm glad to see both sides of the hobby developing. The pure strains and the progressive.
The Hybrid/Morph part of the hobby looks like it is here to stay. To try and stop it would be like being Amish, riding in the horse and buggy while everyone passes you up in a car.
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1.1 Kenyan Sand Boas (new)
0.1 Rubber Boa
1.0 Eastern Hognose 2003 super red
0.2 Eastern Hognose Snakes
4.4 Western Hognose Snakes
1.1 Womas
Spadefoot
Black Knobbed Sawback
Northern Diamondback
Florida Redbellied Slider
Western Painted
Southern Painted
1.0 African Hedgehog
1.0 Sulcata

1 Pleco
2 Silver Dollars
3 Bosemian Rainbows
1 Cory Cat
1 Upside Down Catfish
2.0 Fire Guramis

uhh... I think that is it.