Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Alright everyone,
You won't hear me [bleep] too often, but this is an issue that seriously haunts me when I think about the future of our hobby. A good many of you may take this as a personal attack, but please keep in mind that we pave the way for the up-and-coming the same way that it was paved for us.

I think that there are two well defined components to the "Herp Hobby" ONE: The captive care and maintenance and Breeding of reptiles and amphibians. This component in my opinion is the one that demands the most responsibility and TWO: The field. Catching and releasing or retaining specimens for research or for an addition to the captive collection, including photography and field notes. I love keeping, maintaining and even breeding reptiles, But hunting snakes in the wild is my absolute passion.

I'm sure that this will end up a moralistic issue but I think our hobby is moving at a dangerously fast pace. Especially when your talking about N. American species. The common Corn Snake (Pantherophis g. guttatus) Is a perfect example of what I'm talking about. I'm not going to sit here and play holier than thou. I've owned several different corn morphs in the past and my real beef isn't with the morphs as much as it is with the irresponsible and constant mixing of genes. These "morphs" are being caught in the wild now. I KNOW that hybridizing and inbreeding will eventually poison our wild populations. This is an inevitable fact.

I see breeders who initially came out preaching against hybridizing are the same breeders who are in a "Rat Race" for the newest hybrid. The bottom line is THERE IS NO REASON TO CROSS A CORN SNAKE TO A KING SNAKE! THERE IS NO REASON TO BREED A CORN SNAKE TO PINE/GOPHER/BULL SNAKE! you shouldn't do it just because you can. Why do we need to cross breed everything? I can't answer that but, I refuse to be a part of it. The Louisiana pine snake has been hybridized so many times that Pituophis lovers won't touch them because of the cloud that lingers around them. I think that we (and we are all in this together) are irresponsible. We've turned a blind eye to hybridizing and morph making for a turn of profit. A vendor at one of our local shows told me that I need to get with the times. Hybridizing snakes is the future of our hobby. Well my friends, I do not accept this Bull[bleep] answer.

My favorite snake out there is the Southern Hognose. I was approached by a gentleman at the Daytona show that wanted to buy an adult specimen from me to cross with a Western hognose. I bluntly told him that I would never sell him one of my animals. I'd rather let it go than to be that much a part of his intentions. Why aren't we content with what we've been given? If for some reason (And it would NEVER happen) I had two different species of snakes breed in my captive theater I would euthanize everyone of the offspring. If not, I've just muddied the waters. These animals will continually be bred to other specimens and the bloodline is ever changed. Before you know it you'll go out to your favorite albino Jungle corn hunting spot. The day that hybrids and morphs are a common place on the wild is the day that we have failed mother nature.

This really scares me.............

I'm open to everyone's input.

I totally agree with you on the hybrid issue. But, while I think that a wild-type anything is better than a morph. I don't see the detrimental effects of morphs. It's sad that you can find these morphs in the wild but simply because that means people are letting their captives go. Whether their morphs or not, this is a bad thing. It may actually be better for them to be morphs because they have less chance of surviving in the wild. I don't think we need to worry about a population of albino corns. They glow in the dark and have no natural camo. They will be phased out. The problem is the disease that they might bring into a wild population. As well as inbred anti-vigor. I admit, I'm a morph breeder but let me try to explain my motivation. I'm not in it for the money (completely), but I love breeding snakes and you have to be able to find homes for the babies. Simple fact: morphs (of some sps. not all) sell better. Also, if someone buys a snake for $500 instead of $15, (sadly) they might try to take better care of it. Or at least try to sell it instead of just letting it go in their backyard when they are "done with it".
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International Snakes Meetup
International Herpetology Meetup

Mr. Jones,
I appreciate your reply and more over I definitely appreciate your honesty.
With that being said, You are right, The actual "Morph" isn't the problem. Hopefully any morph that makes it out of captivity will fall prey to hungry eyes prior to being able to breed. The unfortunate part of morphs they are genetically inferior to their wild counterparts. They are inbred time and time again. This includes Hets which are not singled out because of their exhibited color phase. It's not necessarily any disease that they may carry into the wild but diseases that are already prevalent in the wild can and often will target specimens with lower immunities. If these genetically inferior animals are able to pass on those genes, I fear that we have done a great injustice to something that we all love. Inbreeding in any species be it man or fish can and often will create immune system deficiencies.

I feel that in a controlled situation, morphs aren't a bad thing and God knows they are real eye-pleasers but I think that our real obligation is maintain our wild populations. I fear that the damage may already be done, but I hope that a conscious effort will minimize any further damage.

My point still stands on the hybrid issue though.

Respectfully,
Paul Bollinger

Paul,
First off, I completely agree with what you and Jones have already said. I am completely against artificially hybridizing snakes or creating unnatural intergrades. That is my opinion and I stand by it. I think that the "reasons" I've seen in these discussions so far that were for hybridizing are nothing more than B.S. justifications. People can justify just about anything they have done or want to do whether it's really right or not. As I said, that is my opinion and I stand by it no matter how unpopular it may be with some sectors of the hobby. Hybridizing snakes in the private sector is nothing more than a commercial interest and can be made nothing more than that. I'm perfectly happy with the natural forms and the naturally occurring morphs, have been for more than 30 years and, God willing, will be for another 30 or so.

I won't even get into my reasons for being against it, some of them have already been stated by you two. These points have already been argued many times on tehse forums in the past. I'm sure that this thread will eventually turn the way of previous threads on this subject and disintegrate into a flame war very shortly.

One last note. I think that anyone who is caught releasing an unnatural hybrid, unnatural morph or unnatural intergrade (or non-native animal) into the wild should be fined a minimum of $10,000.00 and 1 year mandatory in jail. No exceptions. These acts can have devastating results on wild populations and should not be tolerated under any circumstances. If the person pleads ignorance, well...all I can say is after losing $10,000.00 and a year of their life, they'll know next time.

and that would be great. However, with the laws the way they are now, that would never happen. Especially when drug dealers and drunk drivers get a slap on the wrist. Open up your local paper and take a look at the convictions. 9 times out of 10, the drunk drivers in the paper have 2 or 3 priors!!!

Just a big joke.

Brian

Drunk drivers in Texas are getting more than slaps on the wrists it seems. They are getting much stricter, but besides that, I agree with everything everyone says. All these carpondros and jungle corns and borneo bat eaters. Not to mention corns not only being so crossed together that there is no difference in many of the morphs, but that often there are other mutations such as 2 or 3 heads. I think our hobby is going downhill much quicker than we can sotp it, and I NEVER buy something from someone at a herp show that even has a mutt at their table. What makes it worse are some of the threads that you see on the hybrid forum like "Can I breed my indigo with a corn?" I mean honeslty, both the snakes are fine seperately. Why cross them together? That is why I love field herping, none of that nonsense. But when you start finding hyrbids/mutation in the wild that are of obviously captive origin, that has gone too far. Too much playing God involved in all this. Leave it as it was. Andy
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Andy Maddox
Houston Herp Key
The Reptizone

Burgundy baby, With your blue eyed soul, You play the hits and I'm on that roll, Capricorn sister, Freddie Mercury, Jupiter Child cry

Sorry for the errors in typing, new keyboard.
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Andy Maddox
Houston Herp Key
The Reptizone

Burgundy baby, With your blue eyed soul, You play the hits and I'm on that roll, Capricorn sister, Freddie Mercury, Jupiter Child cry

Much applause for opening a big, nasty can of worms.

I agree -- crossbreeding is a bad thing. I don't even care for the double- and triple-het animals currently being produced as a side-effect of the 'Rat Race' (like that one). Simply put, it has become nearly impossible to know what you're getting. If you're like me, breeding is a secondary issue -- I'm happy owning an animal of unknown ancestry. They make fine pets. After all, my leucistic southern pine is of a line that many respected breeders won't touch. And you know, I don't give a rat's @$$, because she's my pet, she's beautiful, I love and care for her. But I would NEVER breed her.

I don't collect in the wild -- wild animals, to me, should be left completely alone, and not brought into captivity. We have enough of a breeding pool to make 90% of wild collecting unncessary, if we'd just responsibly police our own breeding efforts.

>>The common Corn Snake (Pantherophis g. guttatus)

Has it been reclassified and nobody told me? When? By who?

>>I see breeders who initially came out preaching against hybridizing are the same breeders who are in a "Rat Race" for the newest hybrid. The bottom line is THERE IS NO REASON TO CROSS A CORN SNAKE TO A KING SNAKE! THERE IS NO REASON TO BREED A CORN SNAKE TO PINE/GOPHER/BULL SNAKE! you shouldn't do it just because you can.

Yes, and what do you suggest that we actually do about it? Obviously, if you don't believe in it, you don't do it, and you don't sell to those who do.

I will say that I see a lot less discussion on these forums about hybridization than I used to. Then again, there's a hybrid forum. I suppose that would account for it. I also see fewer in my local pet stores. I'm not saying that the problem is declining -- how can we tell? -- but I am saying that efforts to educate and discourage such breeding MAY be having an effect (in which case those efforts should obviously continue).

>>We've turned a blind eye to hybridizing and morph making for a turn of profit.

No, we haven't. Many of us HATE it. But what are we supposed to do? Physically go into these people's houses and take their snakes away? I think not! I don't turn a blind eye. I let people know how I feel. What more can I do? The last thing we need is for this hobby to turn against itself.

>>A vendor at one of our local shows told me that I need to get with the times. Hybridizing snakes is the future of our hobby. Well my friends, I do not accept this Bull[bleep] answer.

Yeah, neither do I! I think the future of our hobby lies with people like me, who own snakes, don't breed much, and take pleasure in their animals as pets, not as scientific specimens or interesting acquisitions. The future of the hobby lies with 14-year-old girls getting their first snake, with housewives keeping leopard geckoes and cornsnakes, and with everyone else who keeps just one, or two, or three, and not forty, or a hundred.

For the record, I have thirty some-odd snakes. They all have names, they all receive intensive, loving care (I'm lucky enough to be able to spend all day with them).

But I really think that where this hobby is going is into the homes of slightly more openminded mainstream people. Mark my words, they are a fast-growing group. And they need to be taught responsibility, like any other group of pet owners.

>>My favorite snake out there is the Southern Hognose. I was approached by a gentleman at the Daytona show that wanted to buy an adult specimen from me to cross with a Western hognose. I bluntly told him that I would never sell him one of my animals. I'd rather let it go than to be that much a part of his intentions.

I applaud your honesty. I know a creep like that, constantly trying to mooch animals off me or 'trade,' for his hybrid breeding projects. I have told him repeatedly that I want no part of his schemes, and that my pets are just that -- members of the family that will never be traded or sold simply because I want something 'new.'

Why don't we encourage more keepers to be like that? To not trade back and forth, but to take the time to develop actual relationships with their animals (yes, it can and does happen all the time, people)?

>>If for some reason (And it would NEVER happen) I had two different species of snakes breed in my captive theater I would euthanize everyone of the offspring.

I'd find homes for them with personal friends that I knew I could trust, and request that the snakes be given back to me rather than sold or traded away if some problem arises. I still see snakes as pets and animals, and euthanasia would just not be an option, unless there was something else wrong with them. Call me a bleeding-heart, but there it is. Then again, if it happened to me, I just wouldn't incubate the eggs.

>>The day that hybrids and morphs are a common place on the wild is the day that we have failed mother nature.

There will always be snakes in the wild. We may have an effect on the population, it may be good, it may be bad. We don't know. It would be a shame if something drastic were to happen, but I think that's pretty unlikely. There are many factors that would limit the survivability of such animals in the wild, and many factors that would dilute their genetic influence quite rapidly. And, flame me if you want, but if the day comes when snakes in the wild are so 'tainted' that nobody wants to collect them for captivity -- boo hoo. Those of us who love them as snakes, no matter what they look like or how purebred they are, won't feel sour. Yes, it would be sad if a 'pure' species intergraded because of released animals, changing the species. You think it hasn't happened before? Nature is full of such animals, successful and non.

This is just my twenty-five cents.

--Naamah

Naamah,

-I applaud your stance on collecting wild specimens. I do collect wild specimens. I do not run a zoo. I have 53 snakes and they are all members of the Bollinger family. My gripe is that we do not police ourselves. I'm not sure of what the percentages are but I'd say that 50%+ of the captive gene pool you referred to is tainted by this careless "what can I create by breeding this to this to this to this" syndrome.-

--You can do a search of the Scientific name and you'll see that they've been re-classified to separate the traditional N. American Elaphes from that of the Asian Elaphe.--

--The suggestion is to fight a reckless mind set with a logical conservative mind set. EDUCATION! EDUCATION! EDUCATION! I'm not referring to a political stance and I'm definitely not referring to any sort of outside regulation but, something has to be done by us. We are going to hang ourselves on this one.--

--You may see less discussion about it on the forums but go check out your local show. I promise that you'll see that it is alive and well. Type "Reptile Pricelist" into your search engine and just start browsing. You'll find that it's larger than you think.
I'm not saying YOU condone hybridizing but, we are all in this hobby together. I'm not suggesting that peoples snakes need to be taken away. I'm not a radical. Good luck to the people who try to take my pets from me. I know that we don't want to turn the hobby against it's self but, we already are. Not by bringing up subjects that need to be addressed but by accepting practices that will snowball us into a situation that cannot be talked out of. I'm sorry but this is a serious issue.--

You are absolutely correct! The hobby lies with your youngsters. I've got a pinky on the way and I promise that these issues will be instilled into him or her. The bottom line is that we teach more by our actions than our words.

I'd say that I agree with a lot of what you say with the exception of your last paragraph. Keep in mind, this is not a flame.

(((There will always be snakes in the wild. We may have an effect on the population, it may be good, it may be bad. We don't know. It would be a shame if something drastic were to happen, but I think that's pretty unlikely. There are many factors that would limit the survivability of such animals in the wild, and many factors that would dilute their genetic influence quite rapidly. And, flame me if you want, but if the day comes when snakes in the wild are so 'tainted' that nobody wants to collect them for captivity -- boo hoo. Those of us who love them as snakes, no matter what they look like or how purebred they are, won't feel sour. Yes, it would be sad if a 'pure' species intergraded because of released animals, changing the species. You think it hasn't happened before? Nature is full of such animals, successful and non.)))

Boo Hoo is absolutely right! it will be a crying shame! I think that these factors are real and to just disregard them by saying "oh well they are still snakes" is very selfish. I pray that that day never comes. I'm saying that it's happening right now. It scares me that there is not more discussion of this subject. I'm not an activist by any means. I think that being reactive is not proactive. I put as much heart and soul into this hobby as I put into everything else I do. I always will.

Thanks for your input.
Very Respectfully,
Paul Bollinger

Technically if the wild populations are tainted, they are no longer snakes. They are a new group, called "Mutts." So watch your wild populations to make sure you a few "mutts" don't get in or your snake populations are going to head downhill :-P Andy
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Andy Maddox
Houston Herp Key
The Reptizone

Burgundy baby, With your blue eyed soul, You play the hits and I'm on that roll, Capricorn sister, Freddie Mercury, Jupiter Child cry

Well, mother nature could kick our @$$ to the moon if She wanted. She can take care of Her own. Snakes are nothing if not Hers.

And a snake is a snake is a snake. Genus, species, subspecies. These are human words imposed on animals that know nothing of our world. To value them, or discard them, or discount them based on our standards is foolish. Does anyone doubt that the snake, which was here long before us, will outlast us? And if the world -- and with it the species of snake -- that we know changes while we're in it, well, the world does that.

I totally agree that we shouldn't make hybrids, and that every effort should be made to keep them out of the wild. Education is critical. I do my part, and then some. But a population (or an individual animal) is not worthless if tainted with mixed blood. Unless all we value are the human words for the thing, not the thing itself. In which case it is our philosophy that is tainted.

Me? I love the snakes. Give me snakes. Give me their skin, smooth like oil or rough like birdseed. Give me their smell, harsh and dry. Give me their flicking tongues, their sharp tail-tips, their hundred delicate ribs. Give me their slow, cold breath. Give me their embracing coils. Give me their damp, shed skins, their many teeth, their cold, wet mouths. Give me essence of snake. Spirit of snake. Any snake.

That is something we cannot hybridize or bastardize out.

That is something that we cannot kill.

That is something that cannot die.

Mama Snake, symbol of the eternal.

That's the rant, folks!

--Naamah

At this rate, I would worry that they won't at last us. Look at rattlesnake round ups, habitat loss, and the increasingly large number of eneducated people (should be getting less shouldn't it?). As our population grows, snake populations should, in theory, go down. And since our populations are growing quite exponentially snakes are just is more trouble. There are of course exceptions, but I have no doubt wiping out a whole species is easier than you may think. Andy
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Andy Maddox
Houston Herp Key
The Reptizone

Burgundy baby, With your blue eyed soul, You play the hits and I'm on that roll, Capricorn sister, Freddie Mercury, Jupiter Child cry

a
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Andy Maddox
Houston Herp Key
The Reptizone

Burgundy baby, With your blue eyed soul, You play the hits and I'm on that roll, Capricorn sister, Freddie Mercury, Jupiter Child cry

Now I have to wonder. Did anyone get the point of my other posts?

The loss of any species because of our interference or ignorance is truly tragic. It can and will happen again, no doubt among snakes. I do what I can to prevent it, and to help others learn. More than that . . . well, I've never been a worrier. Pulling at our collective feathers and clucking about it won't change a thing. Only action can affect the outside world.

And, really, with all respect, your logic is still flawed. There are parts of this world that will always be wild -- parts of Africa (do you realize how truly huge Africa is? You could lose England in Lake Victoria), parts of South America. Yes, parts of America too. Snakes will always live there.

Besides, the way some people talk, better no snakes at all than a population of animals with mixed blood. Once man has touched something, it's totally spoiled, right? Better off dead. That's what Fish and Wildlife thinks. (Ask any falconer about their policy on hybrid hawks.)

I will mourn if we lose any species, of course, I do my part to conserve, educate, and protect, but there *will* always be snakes in the wild places of the world.

If we ever overpopulate to the point of urban- or suburbanizing those areas I'll be surprised, because by then we'll be packed in so tight and our resources will be so strained that one good plague could wipe us out.

And it will. Something will. No species lasts forever.

Ours has had die-outs before. Think it won't happen again?

Nature red in tooth and claw, folks. She could eat us like candy corn.

Worry if you want. I prefer to walk softly and carry a big snake hook.

And I think that's the last I'm going to post on this thread. Too much talky-talky. Not enough time with my snakes. Which is what really matters.

--Naamah

How is my logic flawed? So you have some species of snakes left in the middle of no where in the middle of Africa. What about all of the other species that are killed off. We won't have access to them. No one will. So for all pruposes, we won't have any.

And if some mixed blood species do start forming, I would rather have the whole species exterminated than end up with something we fouled up. I see nothing wrong with people running over or just killing burms or what not that are living in the everglades, nor the bullfrogs out west. Anything that is intrusive needs to be taken out. I got your point. A snake is a snake is a snake. Maybe to you. But some of us like our snakes like we wound find them in the wild. When my texas rat snakes start turning into creamsickle corns, I will not stand it (that is extreme, but just making a point). Andy
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Andy Maddox
Houston Herp Key
The Reptizone

Burgundy baby, With your blue eyed soul, You play the hits and I'm on that roll, Capricorn sister, Freddie Mercury, Jupiter Child cry

Mmm.

An animal's only as good as it is useful to you.

A species is only as good as it is pure.

Interesting.

I guess we really stand at the pinnacle of creation, and all the world exists not only to be used by us, but to be classified as good and bad by us. And condemned by us if it doesn't fit our viewpoint.

Interesting.

Like I said, I've said my piece. If you don't get it, you don't. Suffice it to say I've totally agreed with all the major points made, hybrids are bad, they, and non-native species, should be kept out of the wild, we should educate, I do my part, you do yours, etc., etc.

What's to argue about?

(big yawn)

--Naamah

>>I guess we really stand at the pinnacle of creation, and all the world exists not only to be used by us, but to be classified as good and bad by us. And condemned by us if it doesn't fit our viewpoint.

The fact is that we do not and shouldn't act like it. No other species on earth besides humans has this much of a problem living in balance with other species. We DRASTICALLY change the habitat anywhere we go. You know the last mass extinction? The one right after the last ice-age? It was always assumed that it was caused by the climate change. New evidence (i don't know i just read it somewhere) suggests, though, that some of the wooly animals (ie. mastadon, mammoth, cave lion, scimitar cat, musk ox) survived and adapted to the new climate. They actually experienced a large rise in population due to the high concentration of food. No, these species were wiped out by a new apex predator that had evolved seperately of the Neanderthals and ,because of the climate change, was moving into the grasslands where these animals existed. Homo sapiens killed and ate almost all of the large grazing animals for food and almost all of the large predators (inluding Neanderthal man) that were competing against them. If you could take a time-lapse photo of the planet over the last 250,000 years. There would be a noticable change in appearance starting at the time humans evolved into what we are now. When was that like 60,000 years ago?

Do you see my point?
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International Snakes Meetup
International Herpetology Meetup

In my opinion we can condemn it good and bad because we are not condemning nature, we are destroyig what WE CREATED. If there is a population of mutts, then who created it? WE DID. I am not inlcuding natural intergrades, but if some snake such as an albino corn did get out and produced many more hets and albinos, then I see full right in totally exterminating them.

As for me not getting it, I think you need to look around. No two species of snakes are identical. By your logic is it ok to kill all the rattlesnakes, because we will still have the rat snakes. A snake is a snake is a snake? I think not. What is there left to argue about pfffft...I am done with this thread..It sickens me.
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Andy Maddox
Houston Herp Key
The Reptizone

Burgundy baby, With your blue eyed soul, You play the hits and I'm on that roll, Capricorn sister, Freddie Mercury, Jupiter Child cry

We could nuke the planet and as long as some protein chains survived, it'll all be ok. Tragic, but not so bad. Afterall maybe your Utopian Muttsnake with no scientific classification will evolve anew and rule the world. Next time there's a big oil spill, let's not clean it up. I mean, really, it's not like it's gonna kill every fish in the sea.
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International Snakes Meetup
International Herpetology Meetup

Bingo!
That is exactly it. What is wrong in the grander scheme with achieving world peace through plutonium. Existence thrives on death and ultimate extinction… relies on it. What are you if not the product of death… Death of the steak you eat… or the carrot… it makes no difference. The carrot feeds on death also, from the death of other vegetables and animals, and the nutrients they bring to the soil the carrot rises to meet and feed on the death of hydrogen… The Sun. Were it not for a continuous nuclear explosion and the slow plodding extinction of the sun our life and the lives of every living thing on this planet would not exist. Even that life bringing death will finally devour us in about 5 billion years when the hydrogen burns away and our little sun becomes a red giant and feeds on us as we have fed on it for billions of years. Then… If somehow we’ve learned to travel through the vastness of space with our Noahs ark filled with pure bred Louisiana Pines and Aardvarks and Platipus’ to some vast and lush and “Pure” planet it will all happen again. Finally, in the fullness of time, all will cede itself to extinction and either float aimlessly… darkly in the void or crunch down into the mutt stew of the All Devouring Universal Black Hole to just maybe, if divinity is cruel, start anew with another BIG BANG. The ultimate serpent folks… Oroboros.
The man on the pale horse covets all for his devouring,
Neither man nor beast, flower nor tree, stone nor star shall escape his scythe.

That being said let us just look at our little mention in the great book of Chronos. Would we be here were it not for the extinction of most of the Dinosaurs. Has not our very existence, our genetic structure, our “pure” humanness been altered over the millennia by our interaction with all species. From the virus to the mushroom to the serpent to the bear each thing in its own way has brought growth and destruction to our own species as well as all “life” touched by them. What arrogance to think that we can avoid the symbiosis that is inherent in the All. Any and all interaction between things causes both to change at least subtly (see “non-local effect” in physics). Our interaction with some things has brought, at least temporarily, a thriving and with others an extinction. One day our interaction with something will bring our extinction whether it be with plutonium, Ebola, or the stuff of stars. It’s inevitable, unfightable, and ultimately the will of the universe (or god, gods, chaos, tao, etc…). On the bright side though, we are all stardust, countless atoms with even more electrons, quarks, and strings. We are the light shrouded in the illusory darkness of matter, just waiting through this life to recommence our journey of forms and energies until that final day when we either wink out or rejoin the All.

What does all this have to do with Snakes you ask? Everything… They are all hybrids of something… The products of innumerable mutations, matings, and extinctions. They teach us though… as they devour life whole to live… so must we. As they shed their skins to grow and renew… so must we. As they live their lives for the moment, embracing their primal is’ness… so must we. And as Oroboros, who, in the fullness of time, devours and destroys himself unremorsefully… unrepentantly… SO MUST WE! The serpent embodies the mystery of life folks… which is the mystery of death.
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Ron

"What we do is but a shadow of what we want to do..." Peter Weiss

Ok, I see what you are saying. (although I must say that this is the weirdest thread I've ever read here) But there is nothing wrong with wanting to study the phenomonon of life on earth as it is. As scientists, we always want to study something as if the studier didn't exist. That's just the nature of science. In order to learn from something, we have to seperate ourselves from it. History is everything to me and it's much more interesting to find out that species x evolved this way for a reason many, many years ago and not just because somebody screwed up the population twenty years ago.
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International Snakes Meetup
International Herpetology Meetup

I agree without argument as long as it is realized that our interaction (as well as the interactions of everything) with the various species brought them to where they are now. As someone experiencing the "now" I would definitely prefer to get the "firsthand" knowledge of species that were not CONSCIOUSLY manipulated by our species. I realize though that this may be the last chance (the next 50-100 years) to do so and the data as well as the subjective personal experience may be invaluable to the brief period which is human history. Much as those who could read and correctly pronounce hieroglyphs may have never realized the profound position they were in I think that too many people assume that as it is, is as it will be. But it won't... Hybrids exist, clones will, and time marches on. Enjoy and document all you can of the now, for tomorrow it will not be. I've waxed very philosophical on my last two posts but I think it's proper. I don't discourage trying to fight back the tide of "progress", I just lament those who would blind themselves to the now, in favor of trying to preserve a future which cannot exist.
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Ron

"What we do is but a shadow of what we want to do..." Peter Weiss

but somewhat true. I'm going to check myself into the psych ward for severe depression now.
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International Snakes Meetup
International Herpetology Meetup

I think that hybrids are ok so long as we breed them responsibly, and by this I mean we tell people exactly what they are and that we do not release them into the wild. so i am on your side on part of your view but if i had a hybrid i would breed it because if i had it it would be a wonderful snake, and i would want to share that with others.
Demon