Reptile & Amphibian Forums

One of my patricias is doing the "gagging" thing mentioned in a previous post but then he goes into what I would describe as seizures. His body straightens out(back legs fully extend) then he starts twitching and he usually ends up on his back during this process. Just about the time I think he is about to die, he stops twitching and he regains his normal posture and just hops around like nothing ever happened. This usually happens around feeding/misting time.

Any ideas?
And should I quarantine him?

How often do you suppliment with calcium/D3? Seizures with outstretched rear legs is normally associated with Calcium Deficiency.

Donn

Like Donn said, the seizures and outstretching of legs could be a sign of calcium deficiency. If you aren;t already supplementing with calcium, I recommend you do so now, while the symptoms are still early. This could eventually lead to rear leg paralysis and finally, death. Also, when dusting with calcium, be sure you use a supplement that has Vitamin D3 in order for the frog to properly metabolise the calcium.

-Bill J
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Updated list as of: 10/20/03
2.2.3 D. azureus
1.2 D. ventrimaculatus 'yellow' (22 tads in the water)
3.3 D. tinctorius 'cobalt'
0.0.3 D. tinctorius 'patricia'
0.0.1 D. tinctorius 'giant orange'
0.0.1 D. tinctorius 'citronella'
0.0.2 D auratus 'zwartgroene(black)'
0.0.5 D. auratus 'green/black' (tads)
0.0.3 D. imitator 'Alex Sens line' (very soon)
0.0.2 D. reticulatus (soon)

Go to saurian.net and read about calcium defiencies. I think Patrick recomends Rep-Cal and Herptivite calcium and vitamin supliments. They work great for me and my frogs.
Tim

Thanks for the quick response everyone. I noticed the behavior for the first time just yesterday so I hope it is early enough to prevent any more "seizures". AS far as the calcium goes, we were instructed by the lady who sold us the calcium to use the Rep-cal calcium with Vitamin D once a week for feeding. Though I had never heard of the Heptivite before, I see that it is suggested in the directions for the Rep-Cal.

Thanks again,
Aaron

I dust with hertivite and repcal daily, after reading in a lot places that daily dusting is necessary. The best price I have found for hertivite and repcal is at HealthyPets.com. I hope everything turns out ok.

Calcium supplementation must be done in the proper ratios. Phosphorus (too high or to low) can cause Calcium deficiency/MBD symptoms. Check out Ed Kowalski's article on the frognet FAQ for excellent info on MBD/Calcium deficiency and vitamin ratios.
What seems like supplementation may be adverse in the long run, depending on the ratios you use.

Donn
Frognet FAQ

I had the same thing happen with a juv galac, I was dusting every feeding with Rep cal and herpivite. I had him in with another juv galac which was a little bigger but the same age and appeared fine. I eventually lost both of them. I had been supplimenting the same way with all of the other frogs in my collection with out any problems, (about 30 of various species). Most pointed to calcium deficiency, but I suspected something else such as an infection or stress. I would move him to a new enclosure, provide a lot of hiding spots and get some pedialite to drip on him if he has another seizure. Start dusting with each feeding or do vitamins one day and calcium the next. Also, try not to mist directly on him and make sure the water you mist with is not to cold,It could be a calcium problem or it could be shock due to stress. Good luck !

What I find weird is that I have had this particular frog for about 10 months and have never seen this before and it only happens during feeding time. I would just discount it as I only observe it at this time because that is the only time I see him, but he is in our office where I spend most of my time during the day and see him often but he only has these "seizures" at feeding times.

It may have taken 10 months for him to become deficient, if the breeder had given it supplements daily. You may only see this during feeding because it uses quick muscular movements to catch prey and that is when calcium deficiency may be more apparent. I think of it like if you were sprinting and you had an electrolyte imbalance, you would start cramping up, but you don't from slow walking.

WM

I totally agree with everyone so far that this definately related to a calcium problem. I thick everyone should learn from this. I lost a sub adult azureus with the exact problems. Also I had my cobalt Tincs lay 2 clutches a few months back who all came up with spindly leg. Sadly i learned the hard way and attribute my losses directly to not using supplementation. Definately read what patrick has to say he is on the money. Take care,

Damon

First I would like to point out that any diagnosis with the info provided is almost impossible. While it does point to a suppliment problem, it could be number of other things as well. I agree supplimenting everyday is a good start but I would watch closely incase there isn't something else going on as well.

For starters, do you have a pair or two males/females. Have you noticed any fighting between the two or is one being bullied ? At 10 months they are starting to mature and you may be seeing the start of incompatibility. This would stress one of the frogs and when opening the lid to feed or mist, the additional stress could be causing seizures.

Does the frog spend an excessive amount of time soaking in water. (sure sign something is wrong)

What are the temps/humidity/ventilation in your setup ?

What is the frogs overall appearence ? Is it eating normally, any weight loss, is his skin moist and shiny or dull ?

For something like this, I would seek the advise of a good vet that has experience with dart frogs. I have heard good things about Dr. Frye posted on this forum, he deals directly with you on the phone and ships out meds as needed.You may want to give him a try if his seizures continue.