Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hi everyone
Sorry I am not attending here so often any more, so I just read the questions below.
First of all I am a keeper and breeder of ratsnakes, and I really don`t care, what they are called, and their family relations. There are professionals for that. I just like them....
My main reason to start all of this was fear. Fear of loosing species, subspecies and locality forms because there are no real interest in maintaining them. More and more regulations and laws makes it harder and harder to get wild caugt animals, and one day it might close totally. Other animals disappeares because of destruction on habitats. So our genpool is decreasing on a number of species. Many people also cross different subspecies og locality forms or forget (if they ever knew) their origin.
Most people doesn`t care, but shouldn`t we try to maintain as many different animals as possible for future hobbyists maybe even for releasing exstinct animals again in a distant future?
What if these animals suddently gets more popular than color/albino forms? It has allready happened amongst other animal keepers like killifish or orcid collectors. Then their could even be a financial issue to this even it is absolutely not my point.
Over here it is pretty hard to find cornsnakes without any abino gens allready, and locality forms of all rats are practically none existent.
Problem is that maintaining only one form takes lots of space and many animals to prevent inbreeding, and it is nessesary to be more than one to do so. Maintanance groups is an answer, but how it is done and who should be in charge, I don`t know.
Regarding the differences on each side of the pond, I believe that there is a greater tendensy to keep abnormal things in USA than in Europe. Sometimes I am amazed on how many different color forms that people offers on things like Python regius, and the money asked is crasy in my opinion. The request for unusal colored animals is far greater in USA than here. I remember a Dane breeding the first albino rossalleni ever, and he seriously thought of killing these freaks (as he called them). One day is was mentioned to an american and then things accellerated ......He made a very nice deal.
I can understand why some people wants albinos and others color forms, BUT there are many hetero sold, and they cannot be seperated from normal colored animals. They pollute the collections, and should not be sold ever in my opinion.
I hope I dont offend people with this statement, it is just one of the dangers to people like me that prefers the "real" thing.
Best wishes
Søe
Reptilia-Denmark

>>Regarding the differences on each side of the pond, I believe that there is a greater tendensy to keep abnormal things in USA than in Europe
... I remember a Dane breeding the first albino rossalleni ever, and he seriously thought of killing these freaks (as he called them).
...One day is was mentioned to an american and then things accellerated ......He made a very nice deal.

Regarding the remarks above, I really resent the assertion that Americans are into breeding and keeping abnormal freak animals!

Oh by the way, here's one of my pets...uh, never mind

Ophidiophile Farms

Hi
We are different and likes different things. It is a good ting and the only reason, because we have so many species within the hobby. I was asked about the differnt ways of each side of the pond, and tried to answer knowing that my thought would be badly taken by some.
In one way or another, everyone wants what the neighbour doesn`t have, and there I can see a difference (my opinion). In USA it has always been interesting with color forms, albinos and crossbreedings, and that tendensy isn`t so obvious here. I can also enjoy the looks on some of these, but when breeding like 2 hetero together, there are many animals that has either invisible gens for albibo or none at all. These animals are sold as hetero or as normal, but no one can tell if they have the albino gen or not. It is still the same animal but some people prefers not to have any "abnormal" gens amongst their animals.
If I could just get new blood from wild caught animals, I couldn`t care less, but that is unfortunately not possible. This is why I need to keep a lot of each species, subspecies or locality forms, because I cannot rely on, what is sold. An exampel: Some years ago their were very few eastern indigos (Drymarchon corais couperi) in Europe. Somehow they were bred together with another subspecies and the offspring was sold as Eastern indigos. They looked like them but a closer examination showed that they were crossed. It took a long time to get a solid stock of real couperi again.
Notice that I didn`t call albinos freak (The breeder did). Since I don`t master your language totally, I use the term abnormal for animals with obvious or hidden albino gens lacking a better word.
Best wishes
Søe
Reptilia-Denmark

Søe,

My post was a complete and total joke. I was not offended at all! I think the topic you started is a really interesting and important one. I also think you're very correct about Americans favoring bizarre morphs (though it doesn't concern me as much as something like undocumented hybridization does) and I was posting a photo of an off-the-wall animal in my collection to prove it. My humor can be subtle sometimes.

Take care.

-David

Hi David
Sorry since english isn`t my first or second language, I sometimes miss the things inbetween the written lines.
At times I think i could be nice to have a family tree on the animals, but I know it is practically impossible. I have made one for my situla, because I have been breeding them for 7 generations and to prevent inbreeding, I need to have written down the relationship amongst my animals.
One day I would like to hear about your P.musobe. I was offered some cb offspring, but didn`t know enough about them. They are cute though. If you can find the time one day I would like to hear about your experience. You can write me directly on soe@reptilia.dk
Best wishes
Søe
Reptilia-Denmark

n/p
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

is that quote from gilligan's island? LOL! j/k...........nice id job though....haha.

Looks like my post didn't make it so...It is from THE MASTER OF DISGUISE..A Dana Carvey movie (you really need to see his turtle disguise...)
Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

n/p

Soe, you said:
My main reason to start all of this was fear. Fear of loosing species, subspecies and locality forms because there are no real interest in maintaining them. More and more regulations and laws makes it harder and harder to get wild caugt animals, and one day it might close totally. Other animals disappeares because of destruction on habitats. So our genpool is decreasing on a number of species. Many people also cross different subspecies og locality forms or forget (if they ever knew) their origin.
Most people doesn`t care, but shouldn`t we try to maintain as many different animals as possible for future hobbyists maybe even for releasing exstinct animals again in a distant future?

My answer:
I agree that it would be nice if we could maintain rare, and/or extinct species in captivity, and in some cases we are moving along those lines. Just because more corn snakes are sold every year than all the other snakes combined, doesn’t mean that other species lovers or protectors of habitats aren’t out there. I personally think that protecting rare habitats is more important than protecting rare species. One species I’m trying to help protect is the Eastern massasauga rattlesnake, by locating and identifying local habitats and lobbying to get those habitats protected, and the laws protecting them enforced. I also like finding the threatened Eastern fox snake, and making their remaining habitats known to government officials, to protect the remaining habitat for them. I personally know several zoo people who are working along the same lines, but often set up projects with a favorite snake species in an effort to keep this species protected and captive bred offspring available for the hobby. The Western Green Ratsnake comes to mind.

Many people cross genes to get something new. This used to bother me a lot, but now I think the majority of snake enthusiasts are beginners and inexperienced and they want the most common snakes, like corns. So it doesn’t really matter. Some people are going to stick with the other species and that’s what counts. My Elaphe guttata include two locality forms of, the Western Plains Ratsnake, E. g. intermontana, and the Southern Plains Ratsnake, E. g. meahllmorum. I know exactly where the original snakes came from. There are some localities out there for the locality lovers. I also know of many collectors who concentrate on finding locality animals, which tend to bring higher market prices. Localities are harder to get for the Eurasian species. Usually, snakes like the leopard rats are hardly available, let alone ones from an exact locale. Sometimes we get lucky and pick up a group like my South Korean Dione’s Ratsnakes, from Seoul. I’ve worked since 1996 with these trying to make sure they made it into the hobby. Many people would like to get some more localities, like several forms of the Mandarin Ratsnake, but they just aren’t available.

You also said:
Problem is that maintaining only one form takes lots of space and many animals to prevent inbreeding, and it is nessesary to be more than one to do so. Maintanance groups is an answer, but how it is done and who should be in charge, I don`t know.

My response:
I think this is why it is so important for many people to work together. Sometimes I’ll say something that will offend a person, but I try really hard not to do that because I know how few good breeders there are and how important each one is. We need every gifted person to stay in contact with us and be willing to work together and share offspring with other breeders. I for one cannot afford to work with many individuals of just one species. It’s against my nature. It’s all I can do to limit myself to just Elaphe. And besides that, there’s usually little or no market for many of the species we maintain. I only know of like three more people besides myself that are interested in E. bimaculata, the Chinese Twin-spotted Ratsnake. There is no profit keeping this species, just the love of the animal and the challenge. Soe, it requires many people to keep the genes good in a species. That is why we must encourage others and share what we know and help them if we can. We also have to be on the lookout for new genes for the species we do work with.

Good luck my friend and I wish you much success with the animals you choose.

PS: Check out this beauty….

This little guy is from the gallery of Klaus Dieter Schulz. It is Elaphe bella, which according to Utiger et al., should be compared to E. mandarina for placement in their group. Wouldn’t I like to have one of these in my possession. Remind you of a Lampropeltis sps?

TC

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Ratsnake Haven: Elaphe schrencki, dione, bimaculata, t. taeniura, mandarina, conspicillata, situla, guttata meahllmorum and g. intermontana; and Lampropeltis zonata and calligaster.

Hi Terry
Conservation of habitats is the most important issue, but I can only do my little contribution in maintaining the animals I have chosen. As hobbyist we have an obligation to call up the authotities, when we observe habitat destruction. Here in Denmark a group of students made a great effort to collect enough money to buy as much rainforrest that 2 national parks were connected allowing all animals including the jaguar to have an inviroment to survive in. They bought 1 square km rainforrest for 100 kr (approx. 14$)and thousands of squre km rainforrest were protected from vanishing. Inspectors to controle the bounderies were hired together with the local administration to insure the survival of the park.
Maintaining a sufficiant genpool of a surtain species demands either many people or many animals. We don`t have that many keepers here and our connection to each other is limited. I think you will have a better chance in USA to get a group working with maintanance, because there are many more people with the same interest. We are getting better especially after the internet has been introduced and saleshows has been more and more common. I hope the future will bring us closer together.
I am getting older and cannot stop thinking on what legacy, I can pass on, when I cannot continue any more. I am still fairly young, but I might not continue to have the powers to keep all these animals or recieve a disease killing all my stock like the herpes-virus that killed more than 100 of my animals this spring. Fortunately I had the animals seperated in several rooms and only one room was infected, so I maneged to keep all species still. The chock I suffered from removing dead animals every day and not being able to do anything makes you think....and cry.
It is ower now, but I have been bombed about 5 years back in my breeding. It was really a terrible time, but the desiase is gone now, and there is light in the end of the tunnel.
Best wishes
Søe
Reptilia-Denmark

Hi, Soe. You said,
"I think you will have a better chance in USA to get a group working with maintanance, because there are many more people with the same interest. We are getting better especially after the internet has been introduced and saleshows has been more and more common. I hope the future will bring us closer together."

My response:
I agree. We have a fantastic opportunity in the U.S., because of the many freedoms that are unique here, but those freedoms are slowing dwindling because government and other groups are putting restrictions on our hobby. We probably have more opportunities to work together than the Europeans, but we need the Europeans too. You have a lot to offer and can work together with us. I often wish I could be at one of your shows or have the opportunity to work with one of your snakes. The internet and our other "group" skills should bring us closer together for the benefit of each other and the animals we love to care for.

You also said,
"I am still fairly young, but I might not continue to have the powers to keep all these animals or recieve a disease killing all my stock like the herpes-virus that killed more than 100 of my animals this spring. Fortunately I had the animals seperated in several rooms and only one room was infected, so I maneged to keep all species still."

My response:
I am sorry to hear about your losses from earlier this year. That is another reason we need many people and to have the power to rebound if one person is dealt a severe blow. I know I too shall pass, and one of the things I sometimes think about is grooming one or more other people to take my place with knowledge, and skills, and some animals. I have a person who can come in and rescue all of my animals in case anything happens to me.

Tell me more about this virus. I have heard of the virus that is killing off crickets, but not of one killing snakes. How did you get the virus? Is it very contagious? It's amazing it didn't infect your whole collection. How did you protect your other snakes? Good luck, and I will talk to you more later...

Terry

Hi Terry
Yes we could all benifit from working more together. Since the internet started it has become easier, and especially Chatrooms like MSN or ICQ makes it easier to get together and talk about our animals. We are a group of snakelovers here in Denmark that gets together every now and then on MSN and use a few hours helping each other, planing trips to various saleshows and collect our experiences.
I do plan to go to USA soon. Bert Langerwerf from Agama International visits me every year (and again in November) and it is time for me to visit him again.....last time was in 1975 so it is about time. He lives not so far from Rex and Sacha and I hope to see them too. It is just finding the time.
Herpes-virus especially but also other types of vira has been entering our hobby at times. It is very common amongst Testudo greaca ibera, but is also seen with snakes. In the seventies it was running wild in Holland killing many many snakes mostly pythons. It is very very contagious. Sometimes it is airborn and sometimes spread with flyes or other insects. Normally when a terrarium is infected all animals there dies and it happens so quickly. With turtles it takes a few days with odd behaviour like running in circles or heavy movements of the head. Snakes dies within a day or two. I have had animals strong and looking healthy in the morning and dead in the afternoon. What is strange is that normally virus only attacks surtain animals. I have had it 3 times in 35 years. First time it took Varanus gilleni only, second time it took all my quatuorlineata and this time it started with the turtles and later situla, sauromates and mandarina, but didn`t attack dione, longissima and drymarchon, that were in the same room. I havent got a clue from where it came. No new animals was introduced, but I think it came from a A. horsfieldii, that I was given last Autum. This animal was the first one that died, when I took them in, because we had a cold period after they had emerged from hibernation. I have heard that this herpes-virus is common in Germany and hundres maybe thousands of turtles has died, and noone seems to have a cure.
After my second attack many years ago, I keep more groups of the same animal in different rooms with absolutely no contact with each other. Fly-net on every opening and no tools used in more than one room. Personal hygine has also been a must especially the hands that is disinfected when I have to switch from one room to another.
Reptilia-Denmark

I appreciate you taking the time to post a response and continuation to my post. I did mention your name in the subject to hopefully draw your attention to see my post and maybe get your thoughts. You made the initial post regarding working with and breeding rat snakes in Europe. Just because there are different views regarding our collections and breeding doesn't and shouldn't offend someone at this level of conversation. Forums are places to express y0our view, information, experiences, etc. Your response was straight forward and candid. There are differences with breeding and views between the Europeans and US. Allot of the differences can be attributed to our locations and cultures. You are correct, it is amazing that in Europe a morph snake can be regarded as a nuisance and yet command allot of money in the US. Thanks for giving a little more insight into the things I read in posts and the concerns Europeans have for this hobby.

Terry Parks

Hi Terry
Thank you for the nice answer. Sometimes it is hard to be a foreigner not knowing the way to act correctly. I have lost very good friends because I bought animals from a person not accepted from another even our friendship went more than 10 years back. I am just a stupid Dane being like a dog...... wagging the tail untill I am beaten. I just give people one more chance, but only one. There are other traditions in other countries, and it can be hard to find a way not stepping on peoples toas and still be yourself. I have been beaten verbally at times expreshing my thoughts, but I know that it is the love for the animals that drives us, and that should keep us together not splitting.
Actually I think there are surtain levels to pass in our hobby:
1: As a beginner you want something nice and wants to breed them.
2: Later you want to show yourself with animals that your neighbors don`t have..... and breed them.
3: Now well established you seek the difficult things that can give you new problems, because most animals have been to easy and you need challenges......and breed them.
4: Back to basic. If the mountain cannot come to Muhammed, Muhammed must come to the mountain. We have for many years tried to keep animals from foreign places, and now the native animals and their habitats is given more and more consern. Yes we still keep some favorite animals, but the joy of looking at the animals outside the front door, and starts making suitable habitats for them and they breed........
Ok once again MY OPINION but even I have hundreds of animals, I get the most fun in my garden looking at the reptiles and amphibians that has found a little oasis in a harsh wold.
Woauh that was maybe a new topic for discussion
Best wishes
Søe

Reptilia-Denmark

Soe, I just can't resist showing you a little of our piece of heaven....Afton Farm....

My favorite butterfly...

Wild turkeys...

Another shot of the turkeys

A nice milksnake from outside of our house...

A close-up of the cool pattern....

Off topic somewhat, but I wanted to show some nature shots, and that we aren't all captive environment too TC.
Gallery Photos

NT

But don't worry. I'll be doing this shortly.

I call it the "Dream Time". Dreaming of the end of brumation, field trips, and what snakes will be breeding in the upcoming year

TC

NT