Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hey, how's it going? I've used alfalfa pellets for some time as a substrate for my sulcata setup and my russian setup. I found it to be too dusty at times, but all in all, a good substrate. I went to a trusted pet store the other day to buy more of it and the guy there recomended that I use the walnut shell substrate (he swore it was much safer, digestable, etc. etc). Of course, knowing this guy to be well educated in the field of tortoises, I trusted what he had to say. I am currently using it (for a week now)and have been made aware of all the risks that come with this substrate. Does anybody have any recomendations for a clean, natural looking, absorbant substrate? Was I good to go with the pellets? There is sooooo much conflicting information on the internet and figured I'd come here for suggestions. Thank you so much.

I'm no tortoise expert but i have heard awful things about that walnut stuff. why not use a clean topsoil - play sand mix?

I always use hay. When I used other substrates I noticed it often stuck to their food and I was worried about them digesting it. It is not a problem if they eat hay, just keep the enclousure clean.

For my Russian I use 50/50 Bed-A-Beast and playsand with timothy hay in his hide-box. I have reptile "carpet" in his feeding area, and found that it works well.

I've used a 50/50 top soil/play sand mix for our Russian's indoor pens for years. It's cheap and it works.

i have been using hay ever since i got my pair. Works great, and they even eat a bit if they are so inclined. The also tend to burrow under it for the night.

good luck,

Matt

I personally don't think hay or rabbit pellets are good for tortoises. They can't get a good footing and it can result in muscle weakness and other problems. Look at what arid-terrain tortoises walk on for the most part when they are in the wild. Flat, fairly hard compacted dirt. They usually don't like tunneling through the grass unless they are looking for a place to hide for the night.

You said you're becoming aware of the problems with walnut shell,
that's good, because it's the worst possible substrate you can
use with a tortoise (other than maybe rusty nails and glass
for a substrate!). Not at all digestable and if you put a few
pieces down on the floor and step on them barefoot, you'll immediately
find out how abrasive they are.
They also offer no traction at all, as they give and shift constantly,
which is why I wouldn't recommend the pellets either. Pellets
are also very dusty and mold quickly. Alfalfa isn't what you
want a sulcata eating a lot of anyways. At some point your
sulcata will get to require a large enclosure that using some
substrates for will be impractical. I know I had a 300 gallon
starter enclosure for him, then a 1000 gallon, and now he's in
his own cottage (approx. 51# now). My favorite substrate is
natural hemp, or kenaf plant , sold as LifeMate - it used to be
sold by Lizard Litter as one of their 4 types of litter (forest
and walnut shells were other types - not good).
I used this for my sulcata as a baby and now outdoors in his
seperate building enclosure mixed with a bit of aspen. Aspen isn't
bad either, but the natural hemp is the best. You might find
in in the rabbit section of a pet shop. It can even be misted
if required.

You can use sand or a sand mixture, though like I said, this
may become impractical as your sulcata gets larger if you're
keeping him indoors at all. I also think sand is too abrasive
for torts if that's their only choice of substrate and can't
get off of it anywhere in the cage. You could try hay but it's
not absorbant for huge amounts of urine sulcatas produce when
larger. Some sulcatas are sensitive (eyes and lungs) to timothy
hay and people have had them react badly to it as a substrate.
I've used it as a hide area when mine was smaller.

I've also tried carefresh - too drying and dusty plus ugly.
Newspaper isn't very absorbant and tends to let urine run
everywhere. Plus it's not pretty and is actually dusty too.
Aspen is OK - my second choice.

Given the toxicity of walnut to other plants and ruminants, I would be concerned about unknown effects on any critter forced to be housed on/in it. Google search: walnut toxicity [see link below also]

Niki: "natural hemp, or kenaf plant , sold as LifeMate"
I've heard many interesting properties about hemp and its products (paper, clothing, bedding) but is it available in the States?

Awesome photo, Niki, in the male "thread!"
Link

np

I've been using Aspen shavings for my baby sulcata's. I have found a mom & pop pet store where I can get fresh shaving nicely packed.

There are only two potential problems with Aspen Shavings.
1. Make sure they are shavings, not sawdust. Believe it or not one near by supply shop sells the "dust" of the tree, I don't know what it could be used for.

2. Make sure they are actual Aspen Shavings, not some other pine or bark from other trees. Aspen is one of the few tree shavings that contain basically no oils. Oil can be toxic to tortoises. Many barks also contain oils, and often show tortoises on the packaging. If it doesn't say Aspen, it is probably some different pine, they look identical.

Hope it helps.

I always use regular old backyard dirt if I have to keep a tortoise in a small enclosure. It really works the best. It is too fine to become impacted in the gut if accidently ingested, and it is usually not so fine as to be inhaled much. What I should say is, in MY area of the country it is just right. Much like the desert which is not too far away. Just make sure you take it from an area that no other tortoises have been on so you don't get parasite eggs. And make sure nothing has been sprayed on it either.

Barring that, a good potting soil mixed with playground sand works good too.

I don't think the risks of using crushed walnut is no greater than using any other fine inert substrate. I've never used it myself because of the cost but I do like the way it looks. It also doesn't seem to provide the footing that I would like but then I'm not walking on it. I don't like the pelleted stuff because it seems to mold quickly if it gets wet.
I am using Bermuda hay, different grades of sand, indoor/outdoor carpeting, dirt, Pine bark mulch or aspen bedding depending on the application I'm looking for. I've used all these substrates over the years without a problem. I've found that the people that have run into impaction problems usually seemed to have a deficiency in environmental conditions (temperature/humidity) or diet which could have led to the problem.
So, the choice (yes, you do have a choice) is yours. For smaller tortoises I'd suggest a sand/dirt bottom with a layer of hay on top of that. I haven't found a single species that will not bore down into a pile of hay if given the opportunity. I'm thinking this makes them feel secure.
Ed

>I don't think the risks of using crushed walnut is no greater than using any other fine inert substrate.

Given that many other substrates exist, why take the chance?

Quoted from link below:
"Horses may be affected by black walnut chips or sawdust when they are used for bedding material....The juglone toxin occurs in the leaves, bark and wood of walnut, but these contain lower concentrations than in the roots..."

"Walnut leaves can be composted because the toxin breaks down when exposed to air, water and bacteria. The toxic effect can be degraded in two to four weeks. In soil, breakdown may take up to two months. Black walnut leaves may be composted separately, and the finished compost tested for toxicity by planting tomato seedlings in it. Sawdust mulch, fresh sawdust or chips from street tree prunings from black walnut are not suggested for plants sensitive to juglone, such as blueberry or other plants that are sensitive to juglone. However, composting of bark for a minimum of six months provides a safe mulch even for plants sensitive to juglone."
Link

If it causes you concern... don't use it. The stuff has been used as a substrate for a few years now. If it was as dangerous as you say I'm pretty sure it would have faded from the market by now.
Ed

>If it causes you concern... don't use it.

Right!

>The stuff has been used as a substrate for a few years now. If it was as dangerous as you say I'm pretty sure it would have faded from the market by now.

Ah, like cigarettes?

Ed, we look at things differently. I take my chances with tornadoes and winter ice; you with fires and earthquakes. I just prefer not to take chances with my chelonians!

Good points.
Taking a chance with a known is one thing and taking a chance with an unknown or suspected known is another.
If you base all your decisions on untested theory, I don't see where the advancement is going to come from.
For example, if you step outside the house (if I was really good at debate I'd cite the hundreds of stats to support this) the odds of you getting killed for whatever reason are pretty good. Solution... don't ever leave the house. This comes down to does the risk outweigh the benefit.
(come on... were talking walnut shell substrate here!!!!!!)(thought I'd save you the response)
The only reason I'm even responding to this is because it demonstrates a fatalistic attitude. There is not one single anything that cannot lead to the demise of your pet.
Nobody is going to test the safety or the usability of these products so (unfortunately) only time will tell when they are placed on the market. If they are fatal, they don't sell. This stuff has been around for some time. Considering the number of people who read this list and the number of people who have responded that they have used it with bad results... and taking into consideration all the keepers, breeders and shops that I've spoken to that use it I'd have to conclude that it can't be that bad.
Ed