Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hi everyone
Since a number of Chinese alligators has been imported to Europe 3-7 years ago, many problems has occured. In China they are docile animals kept together in large numbers or few together in smaller paludaria. This is not the way they behave in Europe. They are killers real killers and many animals has been slaugtered from the others. This is not an sex issue. Often females are just as aggressive as the males and even mature animals murder each other. We have managed to keep quite a few alive, but only few places can they be kept together when approaching 70 cm or more. The best and most successful experience is in a paludarium following the yearly rytm. outside and a loooooong hibernation. This year we had the first copulations, but they are still to young to produce any eggs. Next year the oldest animals has reached the age to reproduce, and it will be very interesting to follow. My own alligators has grown a lot this year on a diet of live freshwater fish only, but they still 1½ years to be mature. When the times come I will be there with my nerve tablets, a bottle of whiskey and my night vision hoping that they will not kill each other. In 2004 they wil get a new inviroment outdoors attached to the one they allready have. Then they will have 36 square meter with water and sufficient places on land and to make their nest. It took me 30 years to get the animals and nothing could be better than seeing these babies hatching........HOPING
Best wishes
Søe
Reptilia-Denmark

Way to go...hope they breed. Any theories as to why they are so aggressive. Everything I've read about them says their pretty docile.
crocodil

Hi
Yes that is also the experiences we were told, but they are murders. We tried just about everyhing to copy the Chinese way, but they are just so aggressive. The only way that has been successful so far is in a large inviroment with a dayly and yearly rytm and a looong hibernation. Prolem is it only takes minutes to skin another animal and we have to be very very careful. We have tried with newborns, juveniles, halfgrown and even adult animals, but they act differently than in China, and we cannot find out why. Everything has been tried, and the only thing that has had a possitive element, is long hibernation, a large difference in the dayly temperature and plenty of space and lots of hiding places together. Kept alone there are no problems at all. I keep mine in a 12 square meter inviroment divided with metal bars allowing them to see and smell each other and I really hope that they will accept each other when the times come
Best wishes
Søe

Reptilia-Denmark

Hi, Soe,

good luck, please keep me informed.This would be the first captive breeding in Europe.
As you know, the agression is not an unusual behavior in A.s.,especially between ( or outgoing from) the females.

I´ll keep my fingers crossed.

Ralf

Link

Hi Ralf... (german?)
We are a few here in Denmark (3 actually) that has taken up the fight in breeding sinensis. One is a zoo having all the possibilities to do it right, and the rest of us are just hobbyists trying to make the right conditions to a species so rare that all breeding informations are crusial to the survival of the species. In Anhui there is a major program to secure this specis in nature, but if the worst thing is happenng there, we are looking at the exstinction of an animal. Oh yes they are bred in the zoos in USA, but so far noone has made animals behaving like the ones in China. I am very impressed and happy about the success in the zoos of USA about their breeding results, BUT I am vorried that they behave different from the wild ones. This aggression that they are showing is unknown in China, and therefor we must do something wrong. Ok it is possible to keep and breed the animals, but they don`t behave like the wild ones, and that is an issue to care about. My animals arn`t so old that they can breed yet, but I will work very hard to find out what it is that we are doing wrong even it will take many nights sitting with my night vision, some nerve tablets and a bottle of scotch. I had a dream Martin Luther King said, and I have another. I want to see chinensis hatch in a "natural" inviroment. Maybe I am not the first to do so, and I don`t care. If it happends, I will turn to a serious amount of alcohol and celebrate.
Best wishes
Søe
Reptilia-Denmark

Soe,

One method which may work is to introduce the animals with a physical divider inside the cage. This will allow visual interaction and an exchange of chemical cues emitted by the gular and paracloacal glands between the alligators.

Visual barriers such as logs, rocks, and a zig-zag pond design will also help reduce stress with the enclosure. I can send you several papers which will provide guidance on breeding the Chinese Alligator (Alligator sinensis). Please email me if interested.

Truly,
Paul Bodnar
Cubancroc@cox.net

I'll be the first to admit I know nothing about breeding but I was wondering if the climate differences between Europe and China could cause the aggression. Also, I was wondering at what age the gators become sexually mature? I'm glad to see that someone is trying to help save the species and I wish you all the best of luck!

Hi
Maturity. Hmm I have been told 105-120 cm from some and 135 cm and 7 years from others. A friend of mine has had several copulations at the age of 7 years and 130 cm, but no eggs. Mine are 100-105 cm and a weight of 3000 and 3500g (5 years. I don`t think they are mature yet, but the male has started roaring this Autum. It is fantastic to watch. He raises his head vertically up over the water and bend his belly down and then comes one or two large explosions and it all starts over. I can make him roar by using a hammer on some wood.
After our casualties we have seperated our sinensis. Only in the zoo they have 1 male and 6 females together in a large pond under a Acrylplastic roof following the yearly rythm. They are doing fine now, but before that they also had their turn in fighting. An adult trio was placed under similar but smaller conditions (12 square meter pond), and they killed one female after 14 days. So long we haven`t found out what trickers these attacks, we are very careful, if or when they are introducet to each other.
Best wishes
Søe
Reptilia-Denmark

Soe,
I dont think fighting is caused by only the size of the enclosure.It absolutely could be the design of the enclosure, Paul Bodnar told about.I dont know, why the gators at ARCCAR and other farms doesnt fight, but I would prefer keeping them separated, if possible, and bringing them together 1:1 for copulations. Climate reasons? May be...Keeping outdoors during the whole year? May be...
We discussed this a few weeks ago in the Croclist, Soe.

Take care
Ralf