Reptile & Amphibian Forums

has any body seen a box this yellow . is she amel ?

She's pretty light, but still within normal color range for a 3-toed box turtle.

>>has any body seen a box this yellow . is she amel ?
>>
-----
==========
Greg
http://greg978.tripod.com/

It has a shel like a 3 toe, but has 4 toes on her back Feet. It could be an eastern but they are usually more colorful. It may be a gulf coast. Their shells come in all colors!

I couldnt really say, would need a better picture, and measurements.

>>It has a shel like a 3 toe, but has 4 toes on her back Feet. It could be an eastern but they are usually more colorful. It may be a gulf coast. Their shells come in all colors!
-----
==========
Greg
http://greg978.tripod.com/

Three-toeds often have three toes on their hind feet, but not always. I've seen plenty of them with a smaller fourth toe or a full sized one, at least enough to think this is not a good method of typing. In addition, I have caught eastern boxies on the middle east coast (northern VA, MD) that had three toes and were no where near being able to mix with three-toeds to cause this. As well, Gulf Coasts can have 3 or 4 toes on the hind feet and it seems there is no "normal" amount for them.

So I would submit that the number of toes is not really a worthwhile identifier between eastern, three-toed, and gulf coast box turtles.

The best way for gulf identification is the flared out marginals. Also, easterns, gulfs, and three-toed interbreed.

The horned colored shell without flaring marginals are good determination characteristics for three-toed.

Yes, its pretty light but not extraordinary.
As for the three toes, lots of people myself included have seen all four subspecies with only three toes. there is an interesting discussion consisting of about a dozen post on the kingsnake OLD FORUMS (which are archived) of the field collecting forum in which several people discuss fairly intimate details of subspecific identification. Anybody really interested should read it. And of course as was recentely discussed, its pretty hard to say how "pure" a subspecies is anyway. Lots of places of overlap seem to show crazy amounts of intergradation. esp north florida and south georgia.

which subspecies is it? Or do you know? That shell would be totally normal for a three-toed or gulf coast, but perhaps a bit odd for an eastern. If it were an ornate, leutola, or florida I would be shocked.

This is a photo of one of my male three-toed boxies. He is what I would call a "blonde". Instead of the plain grayish/brown shell of two of my females, his is distinct in having somewhat of a color to it but still seeming plain. His eyes are also very strange as well.

It may be less visible in the photos than in person, but here are two females with "plain" shells, and side by side in person, the difference from the previous "blonde" male is quite striking.

BUT! I don't know that Hades' (the blonde male) shell is anything abnormal, and the females' shells are certainly quite normal for three-toed box turtles.

my goof. This post should have the two females.

Normal looking 3 toeds.
They both look to be female, going only by the head coloration.

And also, 3 toed box turtles don't always have 3 toes on the hind feet.

I have seen easterns with three toes, and 3 toeds with 4 toes.

Wow, say that ten times fast - lol!

Best of luck with them,

Bill Tracy
-----
My Turtle Stuff
My Box Turtle Site

All of the turtles pictured have worn shells. If you look at the new growth I'll bet you'll see color in the shell. Three toeds normally are light colored but when the shell is worn it is more so.
Ed

>>All of the turtles pictured have worn shells. If you look at the new growth I'll bet you'll see color in the shell. Three toeds normally are light colored but when the shell is worn it is more so.

Very true. I saw an Eastern box turtle once that was the most bright yellow I have ever seen. I noticed his shell was very worn and in the places that were not as worn I saw the brown/black keratin layer that must have been all over his shell at one time.

The three-toed in question is quite light and very beautiful, but it's not a freak of nature. It's in the normal color range Three-toeds can display.

Plus diet and sunlight can play a very big part in the coloration of Three-toeds. I rehabbed one that lived in a bathtub for 6 years. Ate terrible food. It was so light colored I thought I had something new under the sun too, but it's color changed after a few months of healthy foods and sunlight.
-----
Tess
Kingsnake.com Forum Host

Were you seeing yellowed bone? Or are you thinking the newer keratin layers beneath were more yellow than the older ones on top? I've found quite a few old crunched shells and peeled off keratin layers from the bone and you can hold them up to the light and see pretty well through the light parts and not through the dark... but it doesn't seem like what youve described. Maybe the pattern or coloration can change with extreme age?

EJ,
The offspring of my three-toeds are also solid light colors, but not the same as the male above, more like the females. Many growth rings come and are added with all being the same light color. Eventually they develop the darker border along the seams, but I cannot say wether this is shell material or ground in dirt and other dyes by this time, since they are older. Any new growth will have the same light color as the rest of the majority of the shell, and nothing but the very thin seam lines shows any darker.

Another interesting note about three-toeds is that another common color variation has the scute borders on one side of the scute being pigmented darker and lightening in a gradient. This is also found in gulf coasts (and I think somewhat in the first photo here in question).

I hatched a three toed baby a long time ago, when it was about 4" it was tan with the radiated markings typical of three toeds - she was very pretty, well over the years, here shell has lost the radiated markings. Her face is still very colorful, its just her shell is a plain tan, very typical of three toeds.

Bill Griffin

What sorts of conditions cause shell wear like this?

It within the normal color range for both three toed box turtles and gulf coast box turtles. Although I don't think I have any three toeds that light (I will check) I definately have a couple of gulf coast that color, or very close to it.

Based on the head and shell shape and and the four toes, I would take a guess that it was a gulf coast, although it could be a three toed.

Have any history on it? Where was it collected?

Bill G.

6 1/2" long,5 1/4"wide,19 years old C.B. in new orleans

Given where it was hatched, and the reasons above, I would still say Gulf Coast. Although if it was hatched from a batch of three toed eggs, must be a three toed, or a hybred.

Good post - lots of interesting opinions.

Bill Griffin

At that size I'd guess it was a Gulf Coast, on the lighter end of normal coloration. It could also be that it is a normal colored turtle but has not had the best diet in ways of trace minerals or things that contribute to keratin and skin pigmentation. I've noticed in my very young animals that outdoor living with all kinds of wild bugs and plants being eaten seems to increase their colors, both the light and the dark, so this could be a similar case, like with Flamingos in captivity, they become pale pink or even whitish or grayish without this one special crustacean they eat in one location in the wild...
It doesn't even mean the animal is unhealthy, just that some small things are not in it's diet that have the effect of coloration on it.

These Amel and blond labels are just to try to sell a normal three-toed to the unknowledgable novice for a higher price.

Mo' money, mo' money. These guy's and gals are trying to do what the snake dealers been doing for a long time, name a new morph so they can jack up the prices. All these turts seem normal. But, I really sucks to have just a "normal" three-toed, right? How cool does it sound to have a "blond" three-toed or an "amel" three-toed. How about a "super zebra" ornate, or a "greenish" red-eared, or a "tiger" three-toed. Then we can get into "3/4 hetro for "tiger" and 1/4 dominate for"amel" three-toed box turtle". That last one sells for $500, who's interested?

Mark

Its a good thing that box turtles take 10 years or so just for one generation, or you would see exactly this type of thing happening!

>>These Amel and blond labels are just to try to sell a normal three-toed to the unknowledgable novice for a higher price.
>>
>>Mo' money, mo' money. These guy's and gals are trying to do what the snake dealers been doing for a long time, name a new morph so they can jack up the prices. All these turts seem normal. But, I really sucks to have just a "normal" three-toed, right? How cool does it sound to have a "blond" three-toed or an "amel" three-toed. How about a "super zebra" ornate, or a "greenish" red-eared, or a "tiger" three-toed. Then we can get into "3/4 hetro for "tiger" and 1/4 dominate for"amel" three-toed box turtle". That last one sells for $500, who's interested?
>>
>>Mark
-----
==========
Greg
http://greg978.tripod.com/

Don't be fooled, I can't be jacking up prices, since I only give away my babies, and I only have one that I would consider "blonde" and I explained my reasoning for it. My two females that produce well are both plain, which I mentioned, but the one male that is most like plain is not the same, he has a wierd color to his shell so he does really look like he is "blonde". I don't use the term to bring profits or glorify him, just to point out the interesting difference between him and the normal shell marking that two of my others have.

I also dislike the terms folks use to drive up prices. Being the person with the most attractive eastern box turtle in the world, I laugh and scoff at what these guys call "screamers" and "high yellows" and crap like that. Of course, I don't even sell PrettyBoy's youngsters, but give them away as well.

I have heard "blonde" used in regards to leopard tortoises for a completely different reason. The merits of that naming have been shreded repeatedly by the experienced folks over in the tortoise area, for much the same reason as the price gouging you mention.

In any case, I make no claims that my animal (Hades) is special, just that he is not the same sort of base colored plain that I associate with a normal three-toed, instead he's some sort of yellowy plain that is kinda nifty. I also have NOT seen this in his offspring yet, so it could be he just isn't normal, or in his original wild days maybe got something into his system or whatnot.

He is pretty nifty. I think the pic by david probably could be considered "blond". I don't think I seen one ever that blond.

There is a lot of misunderstanding of turtle genetics that can be resolved by selective breeding. Snake hobbyist have come to understand a great deal regarding certain species. Then there are those out there for profit, who cross breed unrelated species to get neat design patterns. Good thing this has not happened yet in turtle culture like cross of a russian tortoise with a star tortoise.

Hey, let's see a pic of Pretty Boy!

Bill Tracy
-----
My Turtle Stuff
My Box Turtle Site

here's some shots from last fall when we cleaned him up and snapped some off. We'll do another round this fall after hatching.

Feel free to look at my wife and I's photo albums on our domain www.aileo.com (we are nathan and alesia). We both have turtle albums with lots of photos in them.

another pic

address is aileo.com for my personal site... sorry to leave it out of previous post.

Very nice - I had a couple like that about 10 years ago - the males I have now are nice (Maybe one is as nice), but that one is a awsome. I will have to get a dig. camera to show off my guys. What type of camera do you have agian? I think I asked you in the past.

Bill

mines just a midrange fujipix I think. It's old, about 3 now, but suites us fine. It takes okay photos outdoors in good light, but it's nice feature is the macro. If you really light up what you are shooting and set the camera on something steady, you can get great shots with the macro feature. So it's cheap but very functional for our web uses.

David,
To get back to the topic, no body seemed to notice the color of the skin. In all North American boxies, the skin color is dark brown or black. To answer the question, no it's not an amel. It could be hypo. though. If you could send me some more pics and I'll ask you a few questions that you might not to answer on a public forum.. Thanks, Blue blueselaphe@yahoo.com