Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Delta is getting Stupid with the price of shipping. It is unreasonable now to get a snake shipped to you becouse of the everrising cost of shipping. Not to mention you have to pay a Box charge on top of that.
I am fed up with it. I say we all get together and start transporting our own snakes.
This is what I have planned.
On this forum we have people from all across the US and then some. If we would all work together like we should this is how it would work.
You have a snake package comming from Florida to Texas for example. You have several people in each state that is part of the Transport and the snake is passed on from transport to transport in a timely manner untill it gets to the person who bought the snake.
I understand the downfall of this would be a couple things.
1st there is a higher chance of theft. and second it seems there would be a higher chance for a bite from the snake to one of the transports.
I am still trying to work all of this out and it seems the Bite would only happen if the snake is stolen becouse that is the only way the snake would leave the Box. But, Other than the thief I think it would work as long as there is enough people willing to take it on.
This is also a way for all of us to get to know each other alot better. I think some of you would be amazed at how many Hotheads there are in your towns or nearby cities. This would give us all a chance to meet these people and transport snakes to and from them every single day. Maybe at one point or another the Venomous reptile world will become a Huge Self supported army which would keep the Venomous out of the public eye. This would also be a way to keep snakes out of the hands of the young kids who prob. buy snakes every day off the net. becouse once again the snake would be transported to them by a Venomous snake keeper.
It is one of those I scratch your back and you scratch mine things. But since we all share the same passion for these animals and Delta has a passion for your money who do you think would handle the animal safer?
Please let me know where you are from and if your interested in this type of transportation.

Just a thought kinda like "World Peace" It would be nice but it will prob. never happen. Thank you for your time though.

Now you have something to think about.
Justin

That is the most hairbrained idea every. I LOVE IT. I would be in for giving it a try. The idea of meeting people and bending the laws sounds like alot of fun to me. I am in OR and have a few Hot contacts here and through NV. If you get can even get anyone to try this it might be a kick in the pants.
-----
Thank you
Darin Gray
Stone Cold Reptiles

Great idea on paper. Lots of theft potential, though.
Bill Huseth

Theft is something we would have to work around. Herpers seem to Travel ALL THE TIME... I know I do. I go from Oklahoma to Texas to Alabama. I am going to Wisconsin in about a Week but I am going buy Plane. later on I will be making constant trips up there and back.
These snakes would be passed on from one person to the next and if one of them gets lost "So to speak" We all get together an go to the last person the snake was dropped off too.
I cannot believe that even though we all work for the same cause as we talk. Some people are willing to steal a prized animal from someone else to make a Minimal profit.. I was not expecting to get any good replies but, I did. Maybe someday this will all come together. I love the website idea. I will have to start working on that.
Take care I look forward to hearing from you
Justin

Justin,
Maybe line up some sort of network of trusted dealers/handlers on each route a shipped snake would take? Just a thought. Like I said, great idea on paper.
Bill H.

It is a good thought on paper, the hard part is finding anybody trustworthy in this business. I've even had people who I thought were friends screw me over, I don't see how anyone can trust anyone when it comes transporting snakes. Lets face it, the honor system isn't going to work with more than half the people.

Depending on how many transporters are in the system, they should be well known and a trace system should be worked out. Out of sight out of mind might also be a benefit. I know it's always best to label each and every wooden crate with latin and common names ect. but if it's just labeled HOT then the transporter will treat it properly, but not be enticed by a rare or expensive herp.

but there are a lot of issues that need to be addressed. I have been waiting for my DELTA "known shipper" inspection now for three months. Since I have been calling every week now for the last month, I hope they are actually going to be here next week.
Someone would have to have a website w/ people willing to participate. Which would hopefully include a forum to report abuse or problems with certain individuals. It should also include a list of rules pertaining to packing requirements to prevent loss/death in transportation. I find myself driving from the Midwest to the East Coast on a regular basis and would be more than happy to "cut out" a shipper who has no real interest in our business.

Yup, a few of us have thought about just this sort of problem. The way it works with horses, is there's a flat rate, per mile, for each horse, and they usually go from one coast to the other, BUT, they're usually loaded in a large van whereby many horses can ride at once and defray the hauler's costs. There are "pick-up" and "drop off" points along the way as not all the horses would be going the same distance; and of course you're at the mercy of the hauler to get your animal to its destination. It's not like you call one day and they're there the next. Might take a month to fill the trailer. One person (or two), with a well-equipped van, could do the same thing, with reptiles. Of course there's insurance and other risks to take in to consideration, but these obviously would all be spelled out before the animal left the premises. So who's gonna start??!!!

I had the discussion about doing it for a fee w/ a friend about a year ago & we figured there was some sort of law that would be broken. Most carriers have to be licensed for such an ordeal which would eliminate the number of people who could help out. They set people up all the time for hauling stuff across state lines w/out proper permits/licenses. With the info. being public knowledge (& w/ undercover F & G bending us over all the time), one would @ least have hauler/transportation permits for PA & KY.

About the permits needed...with horses, as with all livestock, you need health papers to cross state lines. As for permits, most of the shore-to-shore horse hauling is done in vans the same size as semis pull. With smaller animals, and smaller vehicles, of course there would be different transportation and permits, but the health certificate would/could still be a factor. The possibilities are there. Perhaps asking zoo personnel how they transport cross country would be a start. They often do not use commercial carriers but their own vehicles.

Ah , then there is other permits/papers to be considered outside of the ones mentioned. One in particular comes to mind of the Oklahoma regulations of transporting certain animal species through the state. We were stopped at one time coming back from Texas with reptiles and was told that we needed a special permit to do this. They tried to say a " export " permit or something like that in which blew my mind. Since the particular law enforcement person that stopped us was called to respond to another call more important then us, we never knew exactly what he was talking about although I have heard something on this with attendees at the snake round ups of Oklahoma but is , of course , waived.

It's a shame we don't live in a perfect world, because this is pretty much the only way such a system could exist. Even though the hot herp community is large, I don't think it is large enough to sustain something of this sort. There are many faults with this idea.

If my snake dies along the way, who is to blame????

What if people don't mark the box contents appropriately??? I know I sure wouldn't take someone's word for what is in the box only to be busted with illegal animals.

What if animals get confiscated for whatever reason??? Who is responsible?

What if I am part of the leg to get the shipment to its destination??? There is a chance that I could get blamed for something that was done before/after I recieved the box, and vice versa... who holds the responsibility?

Who is going to be the person in charge of making sure that every person in the shipping system is legal and reputable????

Do I need to even go on??? The problems with a system such as this are just too numerous.

Just be happy that there is a legal way to ship venomous snakes. I personally don't think shipping Delta is all that bad anyway. It is a hobby, it is something that I voluntarily sink money into. If I want animals, I'll pay for them, and accept the shipping etc, or I'll just buy them at shows.

this is one of the worst ideas I have heard. This would cause legislation on hot snakes faster than anything. The morons at PETA or the Humane Society would just love to find out that there is an underground snake shipping group working here in the US. Just imagine what kind of panic they could cause by showing commercials letting the general public know that the car they are driving next to could have a cobra in it. How long do you really think it would take before your area/state had a new law banning the ownership of hot snakes.

What you have to realize is, that you only have the right to own these snakes until it is voted against. Snakes are one of the biggest fears for MOST people. If it comes to the voting stands do you honestly believe people will vote so you can keep your snakes.... NO. We are the minority, the only reason its still legal to own hot snakes where we live, is that we keep the ownership of these snakes pretty much to ourselves. Once you open the window of secrecy, and allow the public to know exactly what is going on, you can bet dollars to doughnuts that there will be new laws in place very soon.

Do not underestimate the power of PETA, while I hate PETA and almost everything that they do, I know that they have thousands of very organized members (including many celebrities), hell bent on taking every right from you involving animals....

If your not familiar with PETA, you should be, they are a huge force working against us, with crazy ideas. In their eyes, doing anything to animals should be illegal, including owning them (they believe that even drinking milk should be outlawed).

Check them out at www.peta.org They ARE the enemy......

This is a very good point but, This same point could be used for Delta Airlines. People travel with snakes on a daily basis and noone ever knows about it. There are only a few things I would worry about. The earlier response was what happens if the snake had died in the crate before you got it and you did not know about it and then sent the snake on to someone else who also did not know about it? This is something that was never thought of.

PETA will get there way sooner or later. They will get there way becouse they ALL stick together and fight for the same cause. This is something the Reptile world has got to learn to do. Maybe then we can come out on top for once.

Your comparison of transport by private individuals being compared to transport over the airlines just doesn't hold water.

What you are talking about would be a group of private individuals. Delta is a very large cooperation, and they have shipping guidelines, rules, and they are federally regulated. A loose-knit group of private individuals cannot really stand up to that. So really, I think people would be less scared knowing things are being shipped Delta than having random people traveling with them down the road....

As for organizing and getting a group to fight PETA, its already being worked on

Yeah, the NRA....hehe

just imagine what the impact could be if a well-known serious hot keepers became a 'reformed' activist, and began collaborating with groups such as PETA, ZOOCHECK and Animal Alliance. once these groups finally had some people who really knew what they were doing with the animals and the fine details of the hot buisness - joe public really finding out just how many keepers and umpteen 1000's of snakes are actually being kept and moved within apartments/residential areas by (most)people who really haven't antivenom or even the knowledge where to get it - there would be some possible major problems, if not outright bans.

They do *some* good work - keeping the public aware of animal abuses and educating the public about ways they can contribute to animal welfare.

HOWEVER....

I do disagree with their all-or-nothing stance. Despite PETA's contentions to the contrary, there are ways we humans can use animals to our benefit without harming them. PETA would have us be hemp-wearing vegans who keep no animals in our houses besides the bugs that got in.

One example close to everyone's heart here: Snakes are kept to produce venom, which is then injected into horses and other animals to produce antivenom, which saves thousands of human lives. If the snakes and livestock are not kept captive, then human (and animal) lives will be lost.

And so on and on and on.

PETA uses no logic in their cause. All of their campaigns are emotive. Has anyone seen Pam Andersons letter to Kentucky Fried Chicken yet? If not go to PETA's website and check it out! It's the most ridiculous thing I have ever seen (well one of the most ridiculous anyway). PETA would surely have all of our rights to keep animals (even eat animals!) taken away.

---re: One example close to everyone's heart here: Snakes are kept to produce venom, which is then injected into horses and other animals to produce antivenom, which saves thousands of human lives. If the snakes and livestock are not kept captive, then human (and animal) lives will be lost.---

yes you have a point, but the fact remains as such: these are done in actual, professional bio-labs by people who are trained and properly equipped to do this for antivenom production and real scientific research - not private individuals keeping scores of potentially lethal venomous species in cramped containers within residential areas for what is really nothing more than his/her own entertainment and amusement.
i'm sure the mamba ripped from the tree, or the large viper pulled from the jungle floor, thrown into a bag, then to a wire/plywood holding box with a gazillion others until some are grabbed out and again stuffed into yet another bag, into a cheap crowded crate, flown for how many hours on planes to some importer, into a fishtank or worse a rubbermaid, and then shipped out yet again to some guy who will then put it in yet another probably undersized enclosure for the rest of its life - doesn't feel too good about this. for what? so you can simply sit and watch it (or breed it and flood the market with yet more snakes for more insecure people)?
federal-level laws in numerous countries are being currently being drawn, and will only be a matter of time before these are implemented. idiots allowing escapes and bites will only hasten this process, and believe me - they are very aware of the extent of this private venomous keeeper issue. there's only so much antivenom to go around you know.
remember, votes count when making laws - and keepers of potentially dangerous reptiles will ALWAYS be outnumbered by joe public. deal with it.
enjoy them while you can.

You are obviously just another PETA supporter, who has been guided by their stupid thoughts on how life "should be".

Mind if I ask what your address is? I ask that because we have some homeless people where I live, and being that you are such a caring individual as you so act, I am sure you would not mind me telling them where you live and let them know they are welcome to live with you. I am guessing your humanitarianism only goes so far though.

You also forgot to mention that many of these animals, be it snakes or other types, are slowly loosing their habitat due to the expanding population of the world. Which, is always in need of more space. Since I do not see a world wide ban on having kids coming anytime soon, this expantion will not be stopping soon.

For many of these animals, they will have the choice of becoming completely exstint, of living in the horible world that we create for them in our homes. When I say horible world, I am saying that in reference to the fact taht these homes are kept very clean for them, fresh food is always supplied for them, parasites are killed on sight, heat and humidity is carefully watched so they are as comfortable as can be. I can see where these animals would much rather die that have to put up with such conditions. If you do not notice the sarcasm here then my level of pittyfor you rizes even further than where it was when I only thought you were just narrow-minded.

I am not one to break the law, normally I agree with most laws that are in place, however, once the laws change and start to conflict with basic civil liberties, such as telling me I can not eat meat, or own the pets I want, at that point I will just break the law. A life the way PETA wants it, is probably the closest thing to hell I can imagine. I really wish one of you would try throwing a bucket of blood on me when me and my wife go out sometime, me in my leather coat, my wife in her fur.

Now, if you will excuse me, I have a nice rare steak, a glass of milk, and some ice cream waiting for me.

heh,heh...and you are being totally presumptuous. I do not support PETA, their views are too extremist for my tastes. no, I'm just a reptile lover that speaks from hard experience when I say that I know that 98% of you out there keep these animals for totally the wrong reasons. takes one to know one, right? you'd be pretty surprised to know who i am...heh,heh trust me, i know what i'm talking about.
it is inevitable that private ownership of venomous reptiles WILL be outlawed, and it's likely coming sooner than you think-
good luck,
you'll need it.

glad I am not in that 98% you actually wouldn't find a venomous animal in my house. I would like to have one, and my thoughts are more for the animal, rather than my own enjoyment. While I do have a couple reptiles, all non-dangerous, my venomous thoughts are already illegal where I live. My dream has been to raise Timber rattlers, only to bread and release back to the wild, since they are endangered here, but Ohio law prevents owning them, even for the purpose of bringing their numbers back up. I can understnad the law though, that is why I follow it. Because, if you were to raise these snakes in captivity and handle them as so many people would do, they probably would not last in the wild, but I believe that given the proper caging and NEVER handling them in captivity would give them much better chances of growing with their wild instincts, and therefor a better chance of survival in the wild. Oh well.

Now, since you say we would be suprised who you are, pray tell, who are you? If you are as out spoken as you seem to act behind your mask of a screen name.

as for "taking one to know one" you may honestly be suprised if we actually had a real talk on my thoughts and feelings towards these animals. I have only owned two animals due to them just being "cool" one of them is my rottweiler, which is one of the happiest animals I have ever seen, I don't think she is really against my having her. The second is my Albino Tiger Oscar, such a gracefull pretty animal, I just had to have her. Again though, the care, and diet she receives is top notch. She may not like my choice of plants in her aquarium (she pulls them out on a daily basis, I have to replant them every morning), but she is very activeand happy in her home I have created for her. My other pets are mostly rescue animals, that I took over on so that they would not be killed by the owners that had them before me.

I am glad to see that you said only 98% own these animals for the wrong reason. It is nice to see that someone recognizes that not everyone is in this hobby for the wrong reasons. I am someone that recognizes the beauty of these animals, as well as there requirements and know that many of the animals that people are talking about in these forums should not be kept for pets. I find it a shame whenever someone posts a picture of there "pet" cobra on their carpet or kitchen floor. Do these people really have any idea how many germs and filth they are introducing these animals to? An interesting fact that many people do not know, the dirtiest place in your whole home is your bed (including your pillows), the second is your carpeting, vacuming it is just not enough.

I only wish I could have been born into a life more like Steve Irwins (perhaps a bit less dopey). I would love to do work that actually helps the animals, and their native invironments. But that does not mean I will ever support a group as radical as PETA. While I am not against everything they say, I am probably against roughly 90% of it.

"heh,heh...and you are being totally presumptuous. I do not support PETA, their views are too extremist for my tastes."

Quote by uv7bk
RE: "PETA's not all bad..."

Are you sure about that? One minute you say PETA's not all bad, then you say you do not support PETA and their views are too extremist for your taste. Which one is it?? Your contradictory statment tells what kind of person you are.

"no, I'm just a reptile lover that speaks from hard experience when I say that I know that 98% of you out there keep these animals for totally the wrong reasons."

What are the right reasons? Are you the only one that can judge who owns venomous snakes for the right reasons?

"you'd be pretty surprised to know who i am...heh,heh trust me, i know what i'm talking about."

Who cares who you are! If you are such a BIGSHOT then why don't you sigh your name. I don't trust you. Why? Just look at your statements about PETA.

"it is inevitable that private ownership of venomous reptiles WILL be outlawed, and it's likely coming sooner than you think-
good luck,
you'll need it"

HMMM, who's going to enforce the world ban on venomous snakes? The United Nations?LOL Do you really think people are going to stop keeping venomous if they ban them. Did laws stop people from drunk driving, using illegal drugs and under age drinking. Do you think Zoos will be safe from bans. Do you remember when a US zoo had to blast a king cobra with a shotgun because the snake got to close to the public, what about the zoo keeper who got bit by a black mamba. Maybe they should ban venomous snake at zoos, starting with private zoos. How does that sound, BIGSHOT!

Mr. X

I travel alot from Alabama to Texas to Oklahoma and from Alabama to Wisconsin and back. This means I cover alot of ground and pass by several Hot keepers. From now on when I go for a Trip I will post on the forum about a week in advance. If the Pick up and Drop off spots are on my way I would have no problem Bringing you a snake or more.
Just look for my post.
Thank you again
Justin

First of all, we're not the only ones who can't get stuff shipped. You know there are "non-venomous" owners out there with the same problems!!! So multiply that by the number of animals to go cross country, and we're talking a lot of potential revenue!

Secondly, if indeed, there is an unscrupulous person or persons out there, one trip would be all it would take to make that person's name mud! With the advantage of the internet, no one is sacrosanct any more!

Thirdly, as for the actual packaging of the animals to be shipped, these are things that would all have to be taken into consideration. Obviously you're not going to send a cobra in a cloth sack to "sit on the seat" next to the driver! And I wouldn't send an animal with someone who showed up at my door driving a rusted out AMC Pacer as the main transportation!

Lastly, there would be risks for all parties involved. As I posted that they ship horses, etc, of course things can happen tp horses as well, taking long trips. Some do die! That's what insurance is for. And if you opt not to get insurance, or the hauler does not have insurance, then you're on your own. But in this respect, I've never had luck getting any carrier or dealer to honor their bad deals (talking reptiles here, not horss!!!)

to reduce the price of shipping. If you use Delta, you can ship priority first instead of Dash, it is generally just as fast and is cheaper, but here is the trick, you have to have them put in the commodity code or reptiles and you will get a discount on shipping. The code is #0187 for reptiles. It won't save you the ridiculous box charges, which I am dead against. I think that people that charge box charges of $25 are thieves plain and simple. There is no way in hell that it costs $25.00 to make a box out of scrap wood, even if they are paying someone to do it. To be fair, I could see maybe a $10 box charge, but anything more than that is stupid and greedy. I wouldn't mind paying it if I could return all the boxes and get my money back, but you know they wouldn't do that, because they can make boxes cheaper than the $25 that they ding us for.
hope the info helps,
KEvin

I, too, have become very aggravated at the strict regulations and restrictions facing the herp community. The biggest problems I see here are:

1) liability...whose liable should someone do something stupid and get bit?...that would be enough for me to not want to get involved in a shipping "team".

2) Breaking the law...how do you get the snake through a state whereby it is illegal for a private individual to "own" a venomous snake (such as Illinois). If the driver gets caught, they are in deep trouble.

3) Stress on the snake...if this snake/herp is being sent across a great distance, that animal could be exposed to a ton of stressors...and who is responsible if the animal doesn't make it or expires shortly after arrival? I would MUCH prefer paying a far higher price for air freight knowing that I will have the animal the same day it is shipped than an animal that may have to endure several days (at least) of sub optimal conditions.

4) COST...in the end, this could cost more than just paying the "high" price of air freight. You will be hard pressed to see people willing to drive long distances without getting reimbursed for mileage, gas, etc....but maybe I'm wrong.

Your idea means well, and can work on a small scale basis (perhaps within the same state, etc.) and I am only thinking out loud and mean no disrespect towards your idea....but when it comes to venomous, I just see far too many problems (and liability for those on the transportation line). Our efforts should be on finding ways to change regulations and working closely with the transportation community.

Rob Carmichael, Director/Curator of the Wildlife Discovery Center at Elawa Farm

Just pay the 70 bucks cheapskate...... Sounds to me like alot of hotkeepers these days are trying to get hots banned...... What the hell is with all these stupid ideas......