Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Ok i have a regular 35 gallon tank that measures, 36x13x18. Ive read that UVB bulbs loose intensity after 12 inches. So would the extra 6 inches of height be bad for or give off insufficient amounts of UVB for a bearded dragon id like to get?

i want to use the tank temporarily until i build its permenant home.

Another question, my Flourescent hood is 30 inches long, but uses an 18 inche long bulb, Does the Flo bulb have to run all the way across the tank or will i be fine with the bulb thats about half as long as the tank but with a long reflector?

thanx

For a tall tank like that I would say get a mercury vapor bulb MVB. I've never used them, but lots of people on here and say it works well. Maybe one of them can post about that.

At 18" high the UVB bulb won't be doing much. You can put sticks, logs, rocks, or whatever built up so your dragon can climb up and bask and get within the 12".. that will work. It's better to have them closer but if that's all you got for now it will work.

The bulb doesn't have to go the full length of the cage, though it is better. Just make sure you put the basking spot near the UVB so he will get that when he basks.

Goodluck,
brandon
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Dragons by Nature

Make sure you have and are using a calcium supplement that contains vit. d3. If your doing that, UV lighting is unnecessary anyway.
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Bill DiFabio
Azteclizard.com
Email Me

using calcium with d3 without any UVB may be "ok" but is not the best way to house a bearded dragon.

I have also read that if you are providing adequate UVB and the dragon is getting a good supply of calcium without d3, supplementing with synthetic d3 can actually be harmful to the dragon and is not even needed.
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Rob

I guess I don't understand how the cycle with the calcium and d3 and uvb issue seems to go in circles.

Granted I don't have much experience here but is it just me or does it seem the opinions just go in circles? First, I read about MBD and how there has been a huge issue with this in the past since there were very few bulbs that actually produced it. Then I get the impression MBD is not as much of an issue as it used to be and the main reason for that is the common knowledge that dragons must have UVB.

Now, I'm hearing, what I think is a respected and experienced herper tell people UVB is not needed? And that d3 is the answer? I have also read where some think synthetic d3 is really no good and all of this info I have gotten from experienced dragon keepers.

I gotta say what the heck is the right way here? Is UVB necessary? Does the synthetic d3 really work? Is there a way to find this info out? It seems to me this whole issue is pretty important to the wellbeing of our beloved dragons and there is nothing but conflicting info out there.

I like to read as much as I can about these animals and draw my own conclusions. I go by how much a particular opinion is expressed and my opinion of the competence of the person expressing that opinion.

Generally this is a fairly satisfying way of coming to a conclusion what I am going to do with my dragons. This UVB deal, though, has really made me angry that it seems to continuously go in circles. Do the people that post this info have anything to back up what they are saying or have they formed an opinion based on the success of one or two individuals who have done well with the way they choose to raise their dragons?

I think if you are going to post info concerning an issue as important as this one you better be certain you have adequate experience and knowledge before you begin to lead all the newbies in a direction for caring for their animals.

Don't get me wrong here, Bennet, this is not directed at you it's more of a general thought. Plus I'm really fed up with the conflicting info. I think there needs to be some real discussion between the experienced people who have bearded dragons and a conclusion made about some of this stuff or newbies are going to become so fed up with the conflicting info they will begin to discount everything they read. It's real easy to say to yourself "well it's probably wrong anyway and plus I heard this". Especially if the right way to do something is the more expensive or more difficult way.
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Rob

is challenged by another legit opinion. I try not to very often, though.
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Rob

MBD = Metabolic Bone Disorder - the consequence of not having enough calcium
MVB = Mercury Vapor Bulb - A UVB bulb that produces heat as well
There are plenty of flourescent bulbs that produce UVB, but not heat
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about what is needed for a beardie in terms of UVB and d3 to prevent MBD. See? Can you help me? Why am I rhyming like this? Anyway, I reposted up top so everyone will see my post.
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Rob

I have a suggestion for you. Try raising a baby under the best uvb lighting you can by supplemented with only calcium (no d3). Raise another under no uvb lighting using a calcium with d3 added. Get back to us in a month or so and let us know how they are doing. This "experiment" has been done before and mentioned on this forum. The dragon under uvb light and not receiving deitary d3 developed early signs of MBD before then being treated with dietary d3.
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Bill DiFabio
Azteclizard.com
Email Me

He can site others that have no confirmed test(or hide the real facts) and propose names that advocate this and raise theirs that way (with no known knowledge they are facts) till hell freezes over, but we have dealt with many of these same breeders animals sent to us BECAUSE they have MBD, thinning on density test and failure to grow to a normal size dragon!

I am sick of seeing this issue advocated to new people at the expense of their animals.

There always is the new person that reads something, makes it their own without a shred of research on their side, no documented info.... because something someone else said.... you don't even know the facts, have you been in their homes, farms or ranches? have you seen the smallness and diminishing size of the stock? recessed lips? wrist walking? OH... how about the bone studies... there's one you CAN NOT get around.......and we have seen them and PAID for them..... and that's not an X-ray if the breeder tells you they have their animals x-rayed and they are normal, an x-ray WILL NOT show bone density..... shows just how much they ARE not clued in!

I've stood in front of breeders telling people this and want to throw up that they stand there and LIE to others.

The most recent thing I see is something NOW stating that Adult dragons are 14 inches........ HA... news to me and most knowledgeable breeders around, heck, even news to people that have had a dragon for a year..... Nice effort on the part of someone with growth and thriving issues to cover to still sell their under-thrives to an unsuspecting public, or the line that some people breed dainty lizards cause people want smaller ones. If they want a smaller lizard, send them to buy a healthy gecko, not a dragon that is small due to breeding issues, not a project!

We taken in many dragons the past year, that were under developed and some showing obvious signs of MBD, many of those came from breeders that do supplement regularly.... who someone else told them they could raise them with only supplement and good diet, no UVB...... well, they learned the hard way and their dragons pay the price for it. IN EVERY CASE we were able to get the animals growing again and back into decent shape, would have been better for the animals if there was no "knowledgeable expert" advising them with poor at best info.

They can live without UBV, they can live without good greens, heck they can live in a shoebox and only tossed a handful of crickets a week......... but they DO NOT THRIVE as well as with the proper diet, space, supplements, light, heat and UVB.

I am sick of seeing this........ azteclizard, where are your finely produced and normal size healthy offspring or adults being sold that never had UVB, I guess I have failed to take note of them.

SHUT UP OR PUT UP

"He can site others that have no confirmed test(or hide the real facts) and propose names that
advocate this and raise theirs that way (with no known knowledge they are facts) till hell freezes
over, but we have dealt with many of these same breeders animals sent to us BECAUSE they have
MBD, thinning on density test and failure to grow to a normal size dragon!"

That's interesting, the only breeders that I have sited by name on this forum are the Dachius. Should I assume they are who you speak of in this paragraph? I have never been to there facility, but have had many phone conversations with them. I have no reason to believe lie to me about the health of there dragons.
As for myself, I don't post dragons for sale on kingsnake, because I don't produce many. What I do produce get sold at the New York Metro Reptile Expo in White Plains, NY. I have been a vendor there for 4 years now. The next show is this weekend, your more than welcome to come and pay a visit to my table to see my normal sized thriving dragons. My dragon colony is rather small compared to other breeders, and I like it that way.
Listen, there is more than one way to "skin a cat". I'm not saying what you suggest is wrong. I'm just saying that my experience is that uvb lighting is not needed and an optional addition to a dragons environment. I feel that it os more important to stress the use of a calcium supplement with d3 to a newbie.
As far as putting up or shutting up, I will do niether. I'm not here to prove anything to you or other like minded people on this forum. Do you honestly think I make the posts I do and all the while have a colony of sickly non-thriving dragons dropping off on a daily basis. My adults are healthy well adjusted dragons that excellent care from me. My babies grow at normal healthy rates to adult size without any problems. You can believe me or assume I'm lying, either sits well with me actually. But I'll tell you this, I will continue to come here and express my experiences and views on dragon care.
Have a nice day
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Bill DiFabio
Azteclizard.com
Email Me

Dude, Cheri's not gonna back down from this, and I've seen it first hand.

We got 8 dragons in at the beginning of July as rescues. 4 of them (Group 1) came from a very knowledgable breeder, who gave excellent supplements, and used inadequate UVB. The other 4 (Group 2) came from somebody I knew who'd raise them since hatchlings, again with good supplementation and no UVB.

Group 1 were all clutchmates to each other, and when they arrived, on June 29th, they weighed & measured...

Dragon 1 : 1g 5"
Dragon 2 : 5g 7"
Dragon 3 : 15g 8 1/4"
Dragon 4 : 25g 9 1/2"

At the time we received these dragons, all four of these dragons were 9-10 months old.

The ONLY change we made to their care was to prodive them with Mercury Vapour bulbs.

Less than 2 weeks later, on July 11th..

Dragon 1 : 11g 6"
Dragon 2 : 14g 7 1/2"
Dragon 3 : 28g 9"
Dragon 4 : 50g 10"

As I said, the ONLY change in their husbandry was to provide them with lots of UVB from Mercury Vapour bulbs (160 Watt Powersuns to be precise).

At this point, Dragon 2 was sent to a new home where he has continued to grow & thrive under plenty of UVB.

By August 8th...

Dragon 1 : 17g 7"
Dragon 4 : 34g 9 12"
Dragon 3 : 90g 11 1/2"

And this is only in a 6 week period starting at 9-10 months of age. This is a hell of a growth spurt and DEFINITELY shows proof that UVB is essential to the health of these animals.

Now, let's take a look at Group 2..

Dragon 5 : 22g, 9 1/2", 11 Months old
Dragon 6 : 34g, 11", 11 Months old
Dragon 7 : 150g, 17", 2 Years old
Dragon 8 : 170g, 14", 2 Years old

Dragons 5 & 6 were siblings, and dragons 7 & 8 appear to be unrelated adults. The two 2 year olds, both showed signs of MBD, and all four of these dragons were supplemented regularly.

Thee 4 dragons arrived to us on July 1st.

Only 10 days later, on July 11th...

Dragon 5 : 47g, 10"
Dragon 6 : 52g, 11"
Dragon 7 : 200g, 17"
Dragon 8 : 235, 14.5"

Dragon 5 went off to a new home at the same time as Dragon 2 from the first group. She has now reached over 300g, and is over 17" long.

Dragon 6 is still with us, currently weighs 289g and is 16" long.

ALL 8 dragons showed significant increase in colour, & activity and their appetite DRAMATICALLY improved almost immediately, when the ONLY change made to their husbandry was to provide UVB in the form of mercury vapour bulbs.

ALL of these dragons were far beyond the age they should be for their sizes, and good care was given by knowledgable keepers. Again, the ONLY difference between their care with us, and that with their previous keepers, was that we offered them lots of UVB lighting.

You say you experience "normal" growth rates with no UVB, and just supplementation, but what do you define as "normal"? Do you have these growth charts available anywhere so we can see them?
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Axe
The Reptile Rooms

or start tossing in one name, AGAIN that you really have never seen anything to make statements of fact. Don't ASS_U_ME anything in what I say, I type exactly what I mean to say. I have NEVER seen the breeder you mentions setups or breeders. I DON'T KNOW.....You are the one that keeps insisting to dragging breeders names into it, and no brainer statements.. re read my message...... I have yet...etc

Our findings are not pulled out of thin air, and they are not individual dragons that were rescued or rehabed due to poor supplements by newbies owners, they are breeder that had excellent care and supplements but received and followed poor advise regarding UVB needs from people like you who they thought knew what they were talking about. The fact we were able to get them growing again without any long term damage after a year is a testament to the good care with supplements they received prior to us, without that they would have been another dragon death statistic. They were surviving, but NOT thriving. No matter how much I rack my brain, there is only one thing that's significantly different...... UVB.

According to your "knowledgeable studies" of phone calls or lack of reading and actions, they are just flukes? it's the different water? maybe the butler did it? tooth fairy anyone?

THE ONLY difference was good UVB, both lights and sun. We have more studies going on still, with dragons that can have NO genetic relationship to any in the US to affect their growth and development.... on a weekly basis we see dramatic differences of some dropping behind ALL the siblings by more than 10 grams.. when you only start at 20, that's a huge difference. We continue to observe and record which ones spend more of their own time in the sun and lights.... and you know what, they are the larger growers! Same light intensity, same supplements with D3... the only difference AGAIN is the amount of UVB they are getting.

Sticking a business name behind your name can lead others to believe you actually are a knowledgable source and your statements documented findings or fact, we know that is far from the truth now, don't we? Parroting others is not fact, it certainly is not findings. Unfortunately many new people coming here will not realize that til they have problems.

By all means, keep posting your no UVB advice and those of us that know better from fact findings and test will continue to point out you have NOTHING to back that up but what you HEARD. It is opposite of those that made their life studies these things and actually are studying and documenting it.

Just go look at those dragons rasied from babies with supplements and no UVB...Small dragons, gapping mouths and wrist walkers, fungus problems......... I know I have and there are differences. Many of them feel terrible what they had done to the dragons they raised, some unavoidable due to poor advice, but exposing them to good UVB is something that is in our power to do.

Re: Visiting you at the White Plains Show you sell at, no thanks, maybe YOU need to read the article on the medical section of our website that has been there for over a year!

n/p
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Rob

If you are going to keep telling newbies that UVB isn't needed. Please offer them a detailed feeding program that ensures their dragons won't develop MBD.

Providing a detailed plan for them to follow would be real nice to go along with your statements of no UVB. What happens when someone, providing no UVB as instructed by you, gives their dragon just lettuce and dusts their crickets with Calcium w/d3? Is that adequate?? I've only seen the lettuce thing happen a million times.

You can't assume people are doing their homework. This has always been the problem with saying UVB is not needed to newbies.
This time it was just basically : "if you use calcium w/D3, you're fine", no other info was given.
Maybe your feeding plan does work, I don't know and will continue to provide UVB for insurance.
But from what I understand from past posts, is that the diet is also key in getting away with no UVB. Please express how important that is.
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TheClassyLizard

post. Here's what I was just about to post.

I do have a comment on this sentence.

Me: I have read from a reputable source dragons survive but do not thrive with synthetic d3.

Reply: This is usually because a dragon cannot regulate the amount of D3 in it's system, you have no idea how much of the D3 you feed a dragon will actually be used, and you have no idea if it's got enough. A dragon can mange these things on his own with a UVB light."This is usually because a dragon cannot regulate the amount of D3 in it's system, you have no idea how much of the D3 you feed a dragon will actually be used, and you have no idea if it's got enough. A dragon can mange these things on his own with a UVB light."

Me: If this is the case do you think it is wise to tell people a UVB light isn't necessary if you are supplementing with d3 and end it there? More experienced people may be able to get a good idea how much d3 to use but if there is going to be that kind of info shouldn't there also be a sidenote on why it is better to use a UVB bulb?

I mean adding d3 with no UVB light can work if you get the right amount of it in the diet. But there is also the danger of overdosing. Using a UVB light lessens the risk of this and allows the animal to regulate it's own UVB naturally.

From all I have seen in this thread the better way all around seems to be using a UVB light. Don't you think that should be stated when advice is given that you don't need a UVB bulb if you supplement with d3?

It's little details like that can cause a lot of frustration for beginners. I am one and have done a ton of research on these animals so take it from me missing info like the minor details pointed out above can cause havoc in trying to follow advice.

I guess I just think if someone's going to advise something they should give all the details and make known what is probably the better, overall way to do something for someone who is inexperienced.
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Rob