Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I guess I don't understand how the cycle with the calcium and d3 and uvb issue seems to go in circles.

Granted I don't have much experience here but is it just me or does it seem the opinions just go in circles? First, I read about MBD and how there has been a huge issue with this in the past since there were very few bulbs that actually produced it. Then I get the impression MBD is not as much of an issue as it used to be and the main reason for that is the common knowledge that dragons must have UVB.

Now, I'm hearing, what I think is a respected and experienced herper tell people UVB is not needed? And that d3 is the answer? I have also read where some think synthetic d3 is really no good and all of this info I have gotten from experienced dragon keepers.

I gotta say what the heck is the right way here? Is UVB necessary? Does the synthetic d3 really work? Is there a way to find this info out? It seems to me this whole issue is pretty important to the wellbeing of our beloved dragons and there is nothing but conflicting info out there.

I like to read as much as I can about these animals and draw my own conclusions. I go by how much a particular opinion is expressed and my opinion of the competence of the person expressing that opinion.

Generally this is a fairly satisfying way of coming to a conclusion what I am going to do with my dragons. This UVB deal, though, has really made me angry that it seems to continuously go in circles. Do the people that post this info have anything to back up what they are saying or have they formed an opinion based on the success of one or two individuals who have done well with the way they choose to raise their dragons?

I think if you are going to post info concerning an issue as important as this one you better be certain you have adequate experience and knowledge before you begin to lead all the newbies in a direction for caring for their animals.

Don't get me wrong here, Bennet, this is not directed at you it's more of a general thought. Plus I'm really fed up with the conflicting info. I think there needs to be some real discussion between the experienced people who have bearded dragons and a conclusion made about some of this stuff or newbies are going to become so fed up with the conflicting info they will begin to discount everything they read. It's real easy to say to yourself "well it's probably wrong anyway and plus I heard this". Especially if the right way to do something is the more expensive or more difficult way.
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Rob
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Rob

Okay, here's the basic deal, if I remember correctly.

Reptiles need calcium for their bones. Clacium is not bondable to other things in the body until it is mixed with the catalyst Vitamin D3. Reptiles manufacture D3 on their own when basking by receiving UVB rays, which in turn (if I remember correctly) interact with a cholesterol in their skin, producing D-3.

So, you must have vitamin D-3 in order to use calcium in the body. D-3 is manufactured in reptiles by exposure to UVB rays. However, even the best UVB lighting doesn't really compare to sitting around in the Austrailian desert all day. So most people recommend using UVB lighting AND a calcium supplement that has Vitamin D3 in it just to be sure. Even then, there's going to be some clacium that isn't absorbed.

It is possible to get too much calcium, which is why most of the people I've seen only dust one meal a day, and I haven't personally heard of any problems.

Zoomed has an online article about this somewhere, I'll see if I can find it.

One thin added in this article is that you shouldn't use just a D-3 supplement and no UVB lighting because the animals won't digest enough of it quickly enough to be used with their calcium, and the animals also will not have as much of an option to self-regulate their D3.

http://home.att.net/~chameleons/zoomeduvb.html

>>Okay, here's the basic deal, if I remember correctly.
>>
>>Reptiles need calcium for their bones. Clacium is not bondable to other things in the body until it is mixed with the catalyst Vitamin D3. Reptiles manufacture D3 on their own when basking by receiving UVB rays, which in turn (if I remember correctly) interact with a cholesterol in their skin, producing D-3.
>>
>>So, you must have vitamin D-3 in order to use calcium in the body. D-3 is manufactured in reptiles by exposure to UVB rays. However, even the best UVB lighting doesn't really compare to sitting around in the Austrailian desert all day. So most people recommend using UVB lighting AND a calcium supplement that has Vitamin D3 in it just to be sure. Even then, there's going to be some clacium that isn't absorbed.
>>
>>It is possible to get too much calcium, which is why most of the people I've seen only dust one meal a day, and I haven't personally heard of any problems.
>>
>>Zoomed has an online article about this somewhere, I'll see if I can find it.

I have read from a reputable source the synthetic d3 is a gimmick and does not work.

I have read from a reputable source the amount of UVB produced by the sun is way more UVB that is needed to produce the amount of d3 needed to absorb an adequate amount of calcium. This statement was backed up by blood tests that were done on a dragon.

I have read from a reputable source d3 is all that is needed and UVB is not necessary.

I have read from a reputable source dragons survive but do not thrive with synthetic d3.

I have read it is not necessary to provide d3 to a dragon that is getting enough regular calcium and artificial from a bulb such as the reptisun 5.0.

Now, my problem is that most of these statements conflict with each other. I have read all from what I concluded were reputable sources. Some statements were composed a few years ago and some I read were stated recently.

It's a big freakin' mess of conflicting information and frankly to a amateur dragon such as myself is beginning to effect confidence in who is and who is not someone I want to listen to. People that are new at keeping dragons cannot go by trial and error on some of this stuff. That leads to suffering animals and broken hearts. That's what I have a problem with on some of the info that is being stated.
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Rob

first off the d3 added to most supplements is not synthetic, it is derived form natural sources. If you want to learn more about the vitamin do a search for colicalciferol, or d-activated animal sterol. how can it be a gimmick, human foods are fortified with it(i.e milk) and so are human calcium supps.
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Bill DiFabio
Azteclizard.com
Email Me

>>first off the d3 added to most supplements is not synthetic, it is derived form natural sources. If you want to learn more about the vitamin do a search for colicalciferol, or d-activated animal sterol. how can it be a gimmick, human foods are fortified with it(i.e milk) and so are human calcium supps.
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>>Bill DiFabio
>>Azteclizard.com
>>Email Me

Granted, MK's website may be a little outdated and I am going to email her to provide me with where she got this research or look a little more into it but please take a look.

D3 link
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Rob

The information in that article pertains to Iguanas which are herbivores.
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Bill DiFabio
Azteclizard.com
Email Me

Melissa Kaplan wrote:

"Green iguanas are different from bearded dragons and most other lizards, in the way the are able (or not) to utilize D3 and other things, so decisions on D3 supplementation, via the provision of UVB and dietary supplements, shouldn't be based on green iguana info.

When I kept beardeds, I fed rodent prey (thus ensuring they were getting D3-laced animal fat, something more difficult to provide if you're just feeding insects) AND provided UVB for them, either through UVB-producing tubes, or through direct sunlight."

Some more good info I didn't know. If anything, I think this debate is a learning experience for all of us.
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Rob

You can do it any number of ways, it's only important that your reptile get D3 and calcium. Most people recommend doing it with a UVB light, or UVB light with supplement because the lizard can regulate it's own D3 production that way.

the D3 in a Clacium w/D3 supplement will work also, but often not as well from a chemical standpoint because the lizard is ingesting the calcium and the D3 at the same time, so less D3 will be readily available for calcium bonding. As I've said before, most of the people I know of use both UVB and a calcium w/D3 supplement.

This doesn't mean that you can't make it on a calcium and D3 supplement alone.

It doesn't really matter as long as your reptile is getting calcium and D3, if your herp starts to show signs of MBD, then add something else.

Most people I've heard of combine all the options (UVB, and supplement) because it's an added assurance that everything will be fine. There is no set answer. I don't see how the majority of information you have received is in any way contradictory, aside from the notion that synthetic D3 will not work at all.

"the D3 in a Clacium w/D3 supplement will work also, but often not as well from a chemical
standpoint because the lizard is ingesting the calcium and the D3 at the same time, so less D3 will be
readily available for calcium bonding."

Do you know of actual research that supports this claim? Is this a fact or an assumption? If there are any papers out there that back what you have said here, I would certainly like to read it.
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Bill DiFabio
Azteclizard.com
Email Me

This is from a couple articles I have read, including the zoomed one I linked to earlier. Note, that it does NOT say that only using supplements will not work.

Mind you, I don't have any direct research articles relating to such information, but if you really want, I'd suggest you do some reading about nuclear receptors and plasma/membrane layer bonding in regards to cellular biology. The truth is, it's common sense that light exposure will work more effectively than supplementing. This doesn't mean that supplementing is ineffective, or a bad idea.

Assimilation of D3 is simply less efficient when introduced through the digestive tract. Mind you, this can be a good thing too, as oversupplement D3 can be quite lethal, and also heavily promote MBD, although (to my knowledge)there has never been a recorded case of anything developing toxic levels of D3(or D2 for that matter) from light exposure.

"Do you know of actual research that supports this claim? Is this a fact or an assumption? If there are any papers out there that back what you have said here, I would certainly like to read it."

We're all still waiting for your research, bloodwork, etc. to backup your claims.

"Somebody else does it so it must be good" is not a very strong form of evidence.
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Axe
The Reptile Rooms

>>I have read from a reputable source the synthetic d3 is a gimmick and does not work.

possible, but pretty unliely considering a number of breeders do use the synthetic D3, without a light.

>>I have read from a reputable source the amount of UVB produced by the sun is way more UVB that is needed to produce the amount of d3 needed to absorb an adequate amount of calcium. This statement was backed up by blood tests that were done on a dragon.

This is probably true.

>>I have read from a reputable source d3 is all that is needed and UVB is not necessary.

That's because UVB is only necessary for reptiles to produce D3, if you're supplementing them with enough D3, then the light isn't all that necesary anymore.

>>I have read from a reputable source dragons survive but do not thrive with synthetic d3.

This is usually because a dragon cannot regulate the amount of D3 in it's system, you have no idea how much of the D3 you feed a dragon will actually be used, and you have no idea if it's got enough. A dragon can mange these things on his own with a UVB light.

>>I have read it is not necessary to provide d3 to a dragon that is getting enough regular calcium and artificial from a bulb such as the reptisun 5.0.

This is because Dragons use UVB to produce D3, supplementing at this point is more of an added precaution then a strict necessity.

>>Now, my problem is that most of these statements conflict with each other.

no they don't. They just suggest different methods for handling your Dragons feeding and care.

It is possible that reptiles use UVB/UVA rays for other things as well, but this is still relatively unknown, herpetology is an extremely young science, and there are no 'experts' when it comes to a lot of these things, there's just "well we've been doing this and it works so..." kind of advice.

But a lot of people who have switched to mercury vapor bulbs for example (which often have a much higher UVB output than most of the flourescent UVBs) have made mention of notable energy increases, and brighter colors in their dragons.

Now this may be caused by any number of factors, but it is still something to take note of.

Rob,
The Dachius have been breeding dragons for at least 9 years without using any UV light, just dietary d3 supplementing. We are talking about thousands of babies raised this way. To me that is proof enough that dietary d3 does the job quite well. There is no reason to think that dietary d3 is somehow inferior to d3 obtained through uv. It is still the same molecule.
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Bill DiFabio
Azteclizard.com
Email Me

>>Rob,
>>The Dachius have been breeding dragons for at least 9 years without using any UV light, just dietary d3 supplementing. We are talking about thousands of babies raised this way. To me that is proof enough that dietary d3 does the job quite well. There is no reason to think that dietary d3 is somehow inferior to d3 obtained through uv. It is still the same molecule.
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>>Bill DiFabio
>>Azteclizard.com
>>Email Me

I believe what you have said here and that is probably enough proof. I do want to point out, however, because it is the same molecule really doesn't make it the same how it acts in the body.

I know for a fact research has been done the way some vitamins are received in people has an effect on how effective it is. Ever had a kidney stone? Some types are made up of calcium deposits that crystalize in the kidneys. Chewing Tums that have calcium has been proven to increase the likely hood of having more kidney stones while drinking milk and eating other calcium containing foods has been proven to lessen the chance of having another kidney stone. The fact that it is the same molecule does not come into play with every type of vitamin.

Again, the breeding is proof but don't be convinced because it is the same molecule it has the same effect on the body.
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Rob

Bill, or anybody who does not provide uvb or sunlight I've been to these popular huge breeders places. Some who use uvb, and some who don't. I personally notice a huge difference in vitality, and growth in their breeders. Yes, these breeders who choose not to use uvb produce many nice babies, but have you seen the 15 inch parents with misshaped jaws that produce these awesome babies? I for one have, and personally they do not compare. 14-16 inch adults do you really think this is normal or close to average sized dragons? I never heard of 14 inches being average before yesterday. I have many breeder friends and even hobbyist that raise dragon under the proper conditions of both uvb lights, light intensity, and proper supplementation, and honestly the offspring look the same, but the adults are huge & healthy, and average 18-23 inches ( this is more like it). If it was strictly genetics I'm sure I, or any of them would also have a lot more 15 inch adults, and this is not the case. The jaw problems, and small adult sizes of the breeders not using proper lighting cannot be over looked. They can only argue genetics so far, after that you need to look deeper. Yes, from one of these breeders who don't provide proper lighting I was shown a 22 inch German giant. Was it born there? No. did it already show jaw problems yes, a huge over bite, and short distorted head shape. I personally know rehabber's who have received what seemed like healthy dragons on the outside except for a 7 inch adult size. Yes, I believe genetics played a part. The owners before the rehabber's were providing proper food supplementation cal with vit d3, just no uvb. Within a few months under proper lights and fed and supplemented the dragons grew to almost twice the size they were on arrival. I never heard of an artificial uvb bulbs killing dragons, but I have definitely heard that improper husbandry which is the lack of sun light and uvb bulbs, even with supplementation can cause death/deformaties in a few reptiles. I will continue to provide all my dragons with the best possible care which includes uvb/uva light and I pray I carry on with the success of no adults under the size of 19 inches. 14- & 15 inch adults is just ridiculous and I'm surprised you snake people already haven't started culling these non thrivers out. This year it's 14 in five years it'll be 12. Mine as well breed rankins then. From what I have experienced there are no supplements or sandfire trex powders that will come close to a proper varied diet of live feeders, greens, and veggies, pellets and proper supplementation of calcium and d3 without the use of proper lighting uvb lights. Just my opinions and what I witnessed visiting these so called great breeders that have this no uvb, and supplimentation down to a science. The babies look great, but I would get them under proper lighting as soon as possible!!!
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Mystical Dragons