Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hi guys, has anyone had any experience with Johnstons Chameleons? I have a rare chance of getting hold of one or maybe a pair. I am located in Canada and this is the first time Johnstons chameleons have been available around here that I know of. So I am hoping someone has some pointers I haven't seen much information on them around the net.

The best info on them is on this link:
http://www.adcham.com/html/taxonomy/species/chjohnstoni.html

They are similar in many ways to Jackson chameleons - the major difference is that they are egg layers. There are some other minor differences as well, but experienced C. Trioceros keepers usually can keep all the species/sub species equally.

If you love the horned chams, and you have the opportunity to get them - you may want to. Be sure to note the water requirements... they need a lot of humidity and drippings. We feel their great personalities far outweigh any extra care requirements.

Good luck,
-----

Hi-

The link Morgana posted is just about all you will find on the C.johnstoni. The main reason you don't see to many of them is because they ship poorly and come in with heavy parasite loads. Talking to a few people I would not recommend this species unless you have allot of experience with chameleons and have access to a vet right away for worming and any other health issues that may pop up. Hope this helps!
-----
John W. Lucas

CHAMELEON PARADISE

CHAMELEONS ONLINE E-ZINE AUTHOR

Feeding Baby Chameleons
Caging Baby Chameleons

F. pardalis

Ambilobe Locale
Nosy Be Locale
Sambava Locale

Rhampholeon uluguruensis

Eggs Incubating-

F. pardalis - Ambilobe Locale

got SILKWORMS!

Photo © Chameleon Paradise 2003

John,

I would have to politely disagree with some of what you posted. I have purchased a considerable number of fresh WC johnstoni from various importers just for reference. I would disagree with your point that they come in with heavy parasite loads since I didn't find this to be the case. The main problem were your typical swimmers, which is easily taken care of with Flagyl. After working with primarily "montane" species for a number of years (From many different Countries/regions), I have found that such species don't necessarily carry a heavy parasite load in the wild. Possibly because such altitudes aren't as condusive for parasite blooms as lower elevations obviously are. Also, one could speculate that those parasites that are found could be a result of the drinking water provided at the collector or exporter's holding facilities since the typical culprit were various swimmers. If montane chameleons do come in with "heavy" parasite loads, I would think it should be attributed to being held at a low elevation for an extended period of time, for one thing. Combine that with the stress levels the chameleons experience there; since, as a rule of thumb, most holding facilities are substandard at best. If you just take into consideration the overcrowded conditions, we all know the resulting stress can cause a parasite explosion. Not to mention the stress resulting from males and females being kept together, species being mixed together and so on. Also, you have to take into consideration the probability of "cross" contanimation in regards to montane species being kept with those that come from low altitudes.

Also, what do you mean by "...they ship poorly..."? I did not understand that statement, do you care to elaborate?

Don't get me wrong, I'm not at all implying that they are for everyone! They are difficult to incubate correctly, the neonates can be "tricky" to raise if the eggs weren't incubated properly and WC specimens were notorious for arriving in bad shape in the past, but as a result of parasites. Uganda was highly recognized, in the past, for having terrible holding facilities and for not properly caring for their animals pre-export. However, I heard through the chameleon grape-vine that the "big 3" importers in the States boycotted Ugandan chameleons for a period of time to let the exporters know they needed to step up the game if they wanted to move their chameleons here. "Reports" say it worked as subsequent shipments were said to be arriving in very good shape.

With that being said, I have found them to be a fairly hardy species overall. Mine endured summer temps into the high 90's as long as the humidity was very high as well and lots of water was provided via automated misters. They also endured the cold very well with adults being exposed to high 30's (as long as the days were somewhat warm) with no ill effects at all.

They are definitely an amazing chameleon, I just wish more experienced breeders would work with them!

Soulfly,

Great info!
We have a couple pair ordered, and are eager to work with them. Since we have had decent success rearing a few other montane species, we are eager to venture to a few others.

I hope you would be willing to correspond with us, sharing your tips on the eggs, etc. We have come to realize that each species of chameleons have their "quirks".

Thanks again,
-----

Morgana,

I would be more then happy to correspond with you, anything to benefit this terrific species!

If you don't mind my asking, where are you getting your pair from? Feel free to email me offlist if you prefer. The reason I ask is because I would like to pick up some pairs or groups since they are starting to show up here on the market again finally!

Soulfly,

Great..!!!!!!
I'll drop you an email.

Talk soon,
-----

Hi-

I have been looking for the right colored pair since early this year (Feb.). I have talked to a few importers and all say they arrive in poor health with heavy parasite loads and large DOA numbers. In recent times yes they say the quality has improved, before they would receive whole snippets DOA, so after the boycott Uganda has changed. I still don't hear they are arriving in large numbers in good health. There will always be a few that come in excellent but for the most part this is not the case with the majority of the Johnstoni. This was still the case last I checked when I saw new WC for sale. Now if this is the case in the US, I cant image what it is in Canada because they receive far less chameleons them we do. Yes most parasites can be cured, my point is that it needs to be done right away, and John/Jane Doe doesn't have access to flagyl so a vet is a must. I stick behind my statement, because the info I am receiving is right from an importer that sees them first hand that I would be buying from. I do not want to discourage anyone for buying them, I just thought I would pass on some info. Buy at your own risk!

When I say they ship poorly I am referring to the high DOA numbers during importation and poor health. I think these chameleons are not your average Jackson. They are defiantly an amazing chameleon and one I would love to keep, and the reason you don't see them often is because the simple fact they do not ship well. When was the last time you saw the Johnstoni available in large numbers!
-----
John W. Lucas

CHAMELEON PARADISE

CHAMELEONS ONLINE E-ZINE AUTHOR

Feeding Baby Chameleons
Caging Baby Chameleons

F. pardalis

Ambilobe Locale
Nosy Be Locale
Sambava Locale

Rhampholeon uluguruensis

Eggs Incubating-

F. pardalis - Ambilobe Locale

got SILKWORMS!

Photo © Chameleon Paradise 2003

John,

It is obvious from the statements made in your posts that you haven't worked with a considerable amount of fresh wild caught chameleons. I would have to politely disagree with you again in regards to the point you made about parasites having to be "cured" right away and via a trip to the vet at that. With very fresh imports, the first priority is to get them fully hydrated and stress levels down to an acceptable level. They should be given an absolute minimum of a week to drink drink drink and stabilize before a treatment for parasites is even thought about. Surely you know that Panacur can really dehydrate a chameleon very quickly, that is the last thing a chameleon needs who is already extremely thirsty. Then you must consider the extreme stress as a result of a trip to a Vet. Especially on a newly imported chameleon and people wonder why WC chameleons don't fair so well at best! First priority is hydration and stress stabilization along with a strict feeding regimen. By that I mean, offering the fresh WC just a few (properly gut loaded and dusted) insects 24-48 hours after they have been put in their cage at their final designation. You don't want to overload them with food but rather just slowly build up their diet at a gradual rate to get them ready for treatment. Furthermore, rather then an unnecessarily stressful trip to the vet, fecals can be taken in for examination and subsequent meds can be prescribed for at home administration, once the chameleons are ready for it.

Anyway, I don't know what importer you are talking to but from the sounds of it, I would be looking for another that carries more clout. The large importers who have been in it for the long haul are fairly "powerful" people in regards to getting quality animals. It doesn't seem right, to me, to make a statement and stick to it based on conversations you've had with just one importer; but that is just my humble opinion.

FWIW: I did go ahead and treat all my WC johnstoni for flagellates even though the numbers weren't excessive by any means. I do have a very good friend here in Town who collaborated with me on the keeping and breeding of johnstoni a few years back, when we concentrated on this species. As I said in my other post, we got several pairs/groups from a few different importers and he didn't even treat his for the flagellates they had. He didn't because Frye told him that the levels ours had could be considered "common intestinal flora." He never had any problems with them either. His philosophy is along the lines of, they live with them in the wild so if they are properly kept in captivity, then they shouldn't have any problems with them here. Again, as long as they are kept properly.

One last thing, I think you are mistaken on the fact that "...they don't ship good." The high occurrences of DOA's and poor health isn't "...because the simple fact they do not ship well." Those animals were in bad shape prior to export, I would put money on that. Also, there are many reasons why they aren't seen here in large numbers but that has nothing to do with your statements about how they ship poorly. The jungles of Uganda is a tough place! Especially when you take into consideration the altitudes they prefer along the Rwenzori and Virunga Ranges!

I do agree with you on one thing though, they are definitely not your average jacksonii!!!

LOL! Good job.... John does need to be put in his place from time to time. Were you around a month or so ago when two guys went off on him after he wrote in the E-Zine? They had lots of good points, but I just kept my mouth shut LOL! The biggest point they had was the fact that his Ambilobe isn't an Ambilobe. Do you agree?
-----
Tyler Stewart
Las Vegas NV

Tyler-

What dose this have to do with the topic in question? You are just looking for a fight here. All these topics were answered for you. I am not going to be baited in to a fight. We can agree to disagree. There is no need to turn things personal. By all means if you have a view on the Johnstoni please post it.

John

John,
No, I'm not looking for a fight and I don't want a fight. All I was saying is that sometimes you get a little ahead of yourself and shoot out all this information that isn't always correct. I'm not normally one to correct anyone and I don't do that. Everything I have ever said in here was from personal experience and not from what I have heard or what someone told me, unless I say exactly that. This forum is for opinions and when I see something that is wrong that someone said, I don't say a word. I have noticed on occasion when you went the extra mile to correct someone, but it's information that you don't have experience with. And back when those 2 guys commented on you, which I had absolutely nothing to do with, they did bring up some interesting points, the most of which was your Ambilobe male. "Just because it was sold to you as an Ambilobe doesn't mean it's an Ambilobe". I'm not trying to attack you, but look at the chameleon. It's obvious to me and probably everyone else that it looks nothing like an Ambilobe. Just that noone is going to say that. I'm just suprised that you of anyone wouldn't realize that. I'm not saying I'm an expert in any way and I'm not saying you're not. I read your articles in the E-Zine and I liked them. But when someone like "Soulfly" who obviously has dealt with imported Johnstoni, appears to know as much as anyone about them, and he answers all the topics in what I think were correct answers, why do you come back at him and stand behind what you said before? Have you dealt with Johnstoni? Or did some importer tell you about them?
-----
Tyler Stewart
Las Vegas NV

>>John,
>> No, I'm not looking for a fight and I don't want a fight. All I was saying is that sometimes you get a little ahead of yourself and shoot out all this information that isn't always correct. I'm not normally one to correct anyone and I don't do that. Everything I have ever said in here was from personal experience and not from what I have heard or what someone told me, unless I say exactly that. This forum is for opinions and when I see something that is wrong that someone said, I don't say a word. I have noticed on occasion when you went the extra mile to correct someone, but it's information that you don't have experience with. And back when those 2 guys commented on you, which I had absolutely nothing to do with, they did bring up some interesting points, the most of which was your Ambilobe male. "Just because it was sold to you as an Ambilobe doesn't mean it's an Ambilobe". I'm not trying to attack you, but look at the chameleon. It's obvious to me and probably everyone else that it looks nothing like an Ambilobe. Just that noone is going to say that. I'm just suprised that you of anyone wouldn't realize that. I'm not saying I'm an expert in any way and I'm not saying you're not. I read your articles in the E-Zine and I liked them. But when someone like "Soulfly" who obviously has dealt with imported Johnstoni, appears to know as much as anyone about them, and he answers all the topics in what I think were correct answers, why do you come back at him and stand behind what you said before? Have you dealt with Johnstoni? Or did some importer tell you about them?
>>-----
>>Tyler Stewart
>>Las Vegas NV

Tyler,

It seems that people are speaking without any experience with wild F. pardalis from Ambilobe, at least not in the field. I'm attaching a photo of John's F. pardalis in question and a photo I took of a wild specimen from the Northern part of the village of Ambilobe. If you look, you will see a number of similarities. While the photo I took does not show the animal in display, having seen hundreds and hundreds of wild F. pardalis of numerous locals, I see very convincing similarities. The Northern part of Ambilobe is where the Southern Ambilobe starts to transition to the Diego Suarez/Ankarana type coloration. John's animal is not a Diego Suarez and to me, looks like an Ambilobe specimen from the northern part of the town like the animal I photographed here. People don't seem to realize that there is great variation in many of these localities. Ever seen photographs of the cobalt blue Nosy Be's? They don't look much like normal Nosy Be's (generally green) but they still are (although I've never seen one like this in the wild). I guess what I'm getting at is that its always best to practice what you preach. If you don't have experience, don't act like you do while telling others not to do the same. I think what you all are missing with the C. johnstoni discussion is that due to the fluxuating export conditions, there have been various experiences and two different ones are being expressed (regardless if it is first or second hand).

Regards,

Chris


-----
Chris Anderson
parsonii_hoehnelii@hotmail.com
Chameleon Care and Information Center (CCIC) - http://www.geocities.com/ccicenter/
Chameleons Online E-zine - http://www.chameleonnews.com/

First off, I was not the first one to say that it didn't look like an Ambilobe. Whoever those guys were before said that and when they did, I looked at the pic of his chameleon and I would have to say I agreed. I'm not putting anyone down or starting a fight in any way. And it has nothing to do with John. I don't know him and he doesn't know me. I'm just simply saying "to me" it doesn't look like any Ambilobe I have ever seen. Now I am also not saying I have seen all the variations and realize that they do differ from one location in Ambilobe to another, but I haven't seen a "fired up" chameleon of that locale with that much green on it. To me, honestly, in my "non-experienced" opinion it looks like a Sambava, Diego or even an Ambanja, which I think is what the other guys referred to it as. There are pictures of other locales that also show similarities to his picture. But that doesn't mean anything. Yesterday I got 4 E-Mails from people confirming that they agree with me in this very forum. I was never claiming to have experience and in my post I said I was no expert. I don't claim to have any experience besides what I tell people in my daily posts helping them out from things I have learned completely by myself and all I have ever gotten was "thank yous" and good comments. I never correct anyone and I certainly don't come back at someone that obviously has more experience than me and stand behind what I have said. If I have written something and someone has corrected me, often which I don't agree with, I let it be. Scroll back through the forums. I never respond. It's not a debate. It's the reader's opinion who to believe and who's way to go. It's happened to me several times. I'm not trying to get anyone upbeat about this and I really think this whole conversation needs to be dropped. John is probably thinking I have something against him which is not true and I don't want to make bad relationships in the chameleon world or in this forum, and hopefully neither does he.
-----
Tyler Stewart
Las Vegas NV

Hi-

Yes I am clearly aware of acclimating WC chameleons. By all means they should be stabilized first off. A fecal is a MUST for any WC chameleon. When I say right away I mean before health issues arrive, don't wait until there is a problem, my wording was wrong. Most of the WC receive a shot gun of one or more worming meds panacur being the most common at the importers. You can think all you want that they come in well and have low DOA and come in with good health, this simply is not true. I talked to an importer a few months ago and he said the very same thing I said here this info did not come out of the air. He sees allot more Johnstoni then you do from many shipments. The importer is very well know. He sells many chameleon species. How much better can you get, an importer telling you the truth about the species and not trying to make a fast $ off you, why go else where. Yes there are some good shipments.

I am well aware of the issues in Uganda, with civil war and poor holding sites, but I think the risk factor of high DOA's is the main issue, who wants to lose money. Now if conditions improve in Uganda for the better then the Johnstoni landing in the US may come in better and more will be imported. I am simply bringing up these issues.

I am glad you have had good success with the Johnstoni. I am going to stick by what I have said until I hear other wise from the importer. You can say all you want about me not knowing what I am talking about, but the facts are there right from the source in the US. I don't mean to be rude in any way, and discussions like this are healthy. Now if things have changed in the last few months great! I am not on a quest to be proven right, I am simply passing on the info. We can agree to disagree, there is no need to turn things personal, and I am not trying to start a beef with you in anyway.

Best Wishes,
John
-----
John W. Lucas

CHAMELEON PARADISE

CHAMELEONS ONLINE E-ZINE AUTHOR

Feeding Baby Chameleons
Caging Baby Chameleons

F. pardalis

Ambilobe Locale
Nosy Be Locale
Sambava Locale

Rhampholeon uluguruensis

Eggs Incubating-

F. pardalis - Ambilobe Locale

got SILKWORMS!

Photo © Chameleon Paradise 2003

John,

You need to go back and re-read my post I guess; especially my last paragraph. I did not state anywhere that johnstoni (as well as the other chameleons from Uganda) arrive in good health with low DOA's. I simply stated that the poor health and high mortality was a result of the collection/holding process and pre-export care (or lack thereof) and that these animals were in bad shape before they left Uganda, plain and simple. I have talked on numerous occasions with a very nice fellow who went to Uganda and Burundi to collect his own johnstoni breeders as my partner and I will be doing the first to middle of next year, provided our paperwork is completed and guerilla/rebel permitting. According to him, and he is a very reputable and trusting person, all the johnstoni he came across were in very good health, of which, those he brought back had very minimal parasites and only required a round of flagyl. Not to mention, he did not loose a single animal throughout the entire process. I find this information more reliable as an indication to how these chameleons truly are by nature versus what some importer says, no matter how many johnstoni he sees; not to mention how many species he sells. You asked, "How much better can you get, an importer telling you the truth about the species and not trying to make a fast $ off you..." It gets much better as the gentleman I speak of does not profit in any way from the selling of any chameleons he collects or produces. To him, it is just a passion he has and not one he does for monetary reasons. I find his information much more accurate and valuable over anything an importer could tell you for a few reasons. Mainly for the simple fact that the way he does things eliminates the typical collection, holding and exportation process. Therefore, you get a much more accurate sense for these chameleons and a better understanding of how hardy they actually are. Furthermore, sure, the importer you speak of surely has seen many more johnstoni then my partner or I have seen personally but how many clutches has he hatched and raised to yearlings from true captive breeding?

On another note, John; I did not say anything about you not knowing what you were talking about! You are just passing on inaccurate information based on what some importer tells you. Sure, they do mostly arrive in bad shape with high mortality rates, I have even heard of entire shipments arriving dead! However, this is not due to the fact that they "...do not ship well..." or because they are not a hardy species! It is due to the collection, holding and pre-export process _period_ I'm simply tired of them getting a bad rap because of statements similar to those you have made. The bad rap needs to go to the collectors, holders and exporters, not the chameleons themselves! It is highly recognized that Uganda has some of the poorest collection, holding and maintenance etiquette; otherwise there would not of been an organized boycott. You point me to a species that could endure such conditions and arrive healthy with minimal importation mortalities and I'll start keeping and breeding them tomorrow!

One last thing, I was not trying to turn things personal or start a beef with you. In one of my posts, I even said that I would have to "...politely disagree with you...". Now does that sound like a statement that one would make if they were trying to initiate a personal attack or to "start beef"? I was simply disagreeing with some of the statements you made. Also, I thought you did a good job as guest editor for chameleon news and I sincerely mean that! Also, I was delighted to see that you are interested in Hoya carnosa since they have always been one of my favorite plants! Not only are they easy to clone and care for but the flowers are simply amazing! Not to mention, they are just something different other then the typical ficus or pothos, which I am totally burned out on!

Hey john,

Nice job with the articles and website, but do try to lighten up. I do think you should be more open to discussion, as this IS a forum after all. There are many expereinced people here sharing as well. Anyway, keep up the good work.

Hi-

I did not mean to put words in you mouth, if I did I am sorry. It is nice that you can collect your own Johnstoni for exportation, most of us are not that lucky. The majority of us rely on imports from importers. So I can see your point about your success with the imports you have received due to the condition they are kept in, for most of us we are not privileged to the high quality imports you get from your source. I am not questioning your ability to breed and hatch, I am sure you have great success, but you must first get breeders to produce babies.

The info I received from the importer can and has been the same I have received from others looking to get this species. I don't think I said they are not a hardy species, just that they are for more experienced keepers. I did say they don't ship well, and yes you are right the main reason is because the care received at the collecting stations. I thought I had cleared that up, if not you have. They are shipped in poor condition.

I know you did not mean to turn things personal and I was just letting you know I mean the same. We can agree to disagree, I don't want to start a beef with you. Things may have not came out that way in my reply but this should clear it up. The main difference I see here is you are receiving your own personal imports while Jane/john doe will be buying from a pet shop or importer that was not as lucky as your self in receiving well cared for Johnstoni. Please lets just consider this over with and move on, I have.

Hoya is a very nice plant the flowers are awesome for adding contrast to a set up. I have two huge mother plants, and lots of smaller cuttings. The leafs and vines are very strong and make a great chameleon plant. The only draw back with them is the sweet drops the flowers produce attract ants, and the plant itself is an aphid magnet. I have found soap and water to be the best pest control when needed. Have you tried some of the newer ficus verities out now? Most of them are much hardier, but not as common. I have to say the variegated ficus is still my favorite plant. Really I am just bias to variegated plants, I would take them over the solid green plants/trees any day. I have lots of cuttings growing, you don't really think plants are expensive until you have to buy them!LOL!

Best wishes-

John

Hey Guys, thanks for all the info. The little debate between Soulfly and John was actually quite entertaining to read!! lol
Anyways guys like I said this is a rare opportunity I think I will have to take my chances on buying a Johnston and see what happens. If anyone else has had any experience with these chams and have some pointers please pass it on. The more info. I get the better chance of success.